Matt Duchene

[DaveMatthew]

Hmmm, the rich bit it is that you haven’t presented a counter argument at all. There really is nothing to see here.

I wrote a wall of text for you to read as to my rationale for my opinion, I’m really not sure what else you want me to write. We’re sharing opinions remember?

We all have access to the same interviews and opinions. You’re main argument is mentioning Turris and Methot and providing zero analysis, and still I provided counters for you to read.

I’m not looking to change your mind, you are the one who challenged my opinion, not the other way around, and now you want me to put in more work to try and prove something to you? At this point I don’t care what you think about the issue, given that you haven’t bothered to take the time to explain yourself in even remotely the same manner that you expect me to, and yet you feel free to be liberal with the snark.

You have it backwards as I said. I’m fine to stand by my claim and rationale. You don’t like it, it’s all good, but you shouldn’t pretend as though your half assed challenge to my opinion carries any more weight.

The comments from Kyle Turris, Erik Karlsson and Marc Methot speak volumes about how Pierre Dorion is perceived. You're all about insinuating, do you remember the Julie Turris "lol" tweet?

If the player's wives feel that way about Dorion, it's probably because of stories their husband's have told them.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You speculate based on quotes all the time. Have you every directly spoken to Eugene Melnyk, John Ruddy, Erik Karlsson and/or Pierre Dorion? Because you've taken several positions that are supported by media speculation.

Let me put it this way:

If the Ottawa Senators had made an acceptable offer and Matt Duchene was committed to staying here long-term, he'd be under contract.

Because that is not the case, logic dictates that one of those two things has not happened.

When you find, and post a quote from (Let's say) EM, and use that as support when suggesting that he's not interested in selling the team, that is not "media speculation.

When Nick Kypreos saying no numbers were exchanged ...... with nothing, nothing to back that up, that is the exact definition of "media speculation".

 

[DaveMatthew]

When you find, and post a quote from (Let's say) EM, and use that as support when suggesting that he's not interested in selling the team, that is not "media speculation.

When Nick Kypreos saying no numbers were exchanged ...... with nothing, nothing to back that up, that is the exact definition of "media speculation".

Nick Kypreos is no different than Bob McKenzie, and he won't reveal his sources. When McKenzie said that the meetings have been positive, he also, has nothing to back that up with. He wasn't there.

So you can choose to believe these "insiders" or not, but the fact remains, 5 and a half months into being eligible to re-sign, Duchene is still without a contract. We're now 7 weeks away from the trade deadline, and with each passing day, Ottawa has less leverage.

If they had made an acceptable offer and Duchene was committed to staying, he'd be signed. He's not, so at least one one of the following statements, if not both, must be true:

1) Dorion has not made an acceptable offer
2) Duchene is not interested in staying

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nick Kypreos is no different than Bob McKenzie, and he won't reveal his sources. When McKenzie said that the meetings have been positive, he also, has nothing to back that up with. He wasn't there.

So you can choose to believe these "insiders" or not, but the fact remains, 5 and a half months into being eligible to re-sign, Duchene is still without a contract. We're now 7 weeks away from the trade deadline, and with each passing day, Ottawa has less leverage.

If they had made an acceptable offer and Duchene was committed to staying, he'd be signed. He's not, so at least one one of the following statements, if not both, must be true:

1) Dorion has not made an acceptable offer
2) Duchene is not interested in staying

I choose not to believe Nick Kypreos.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Nick Kypreos is no different than Bob McKenzie, and he won't reveal his sources. When McKenzie said that the meetings have been positive, he also, has nothing to back that up with. He wasn't there.

So you can choose to believe these "insiders" or not, but the fact remains, 5 and a half months into being eligible to re-sign, Duchene is still without a contract. We're now 7 weeks away from the trade deadline, and with each passing day, Ottawa has less leverage.

If they had made an acceptable offer and Duchene was committed to staying, he'd be signed. He's not, so one of the following must be true:

1) Dorion has not made an acceptable offer
2) Duchene is not interested in staying

Or 3) they are negotiating

I have no idea what is happening here but just as an example, getzlaf and perry a few years ago were in the same boat and both signed with a couple of months left in the season. It can still happen and my gut tells me it will. I don’t see any brighter scenario for Duchene elsewhere

 

[JD1]

Personally I don’t view EM and PD as a unit, though it is convenient when folks want to gripe (not saying you are).

I think PD is quite likely similar to BM in his treatment of players, he just has something that I know I have always wanted, which is a willingness to make big trades, and not always make loyalty the biggest reason for signings.

There is no evidence to suggest that PD treats the players poorly, from what I can see. I know Turris was upset at not being signed, and Methot was upset at being exposed, but these two guys wanted to stay with the organization, not leave.

PD supported the coach and gave him a chance to adjust to the rebuild, he supported Lee until the evidence was gathered, and then respectfully removed him from duty and then allowed him to resign with at least a shred of dignity.

Has always been super excited about the young players that they draft, and has been vocally very high on the players on the team, paying special attention to the character and intangibles of the group. Not that this is saying a whole lot, more that he’s very supportive of the players in the media, and seems genuinely excited about their future.

I don’t think the EK situation tarnished PD personally. I think EK had issues with ownership and funding, and that was the block for him. PD promised fans and EK that an offer would be made, and moved Hoffman out just in case. I don’t think that he expected EK to negotiate a deal if nothing changed, but a promise is a promise, and you never know. Add that to the idea that people were buying time in case a sale went through, and I think it was the right choice if there was actual a hope of him staying.

PD and EK have had a fine relationship
From what we can see, and it doesn’t appear as though there is bad blood.

That’s all just surface observations on my part, but I think the onus would be on you to show how PD has shown himself to not take care of his players, or to not be liked by them.

He’s not well thought of by many in here, but I’m not convinced that this reflects how players feel. I mean he was nominated for GM of the year a few years ago, while many in here were convinced that he was terrible. There is a disconnect.

of course the players like him....just a few short months ago they were giving him high 5s

 

[JD1]

Wall of text =/= saying anything

I brought up Mike Hoffman and Zack Smith (honestly I'm not sure how you could even argue that the organization did Smitty dirty on that one). I haven't seen you post about a single player that PD has taken care of, only the coaching staff. Your original post claimed that PD takes care of his players, so even though you might be right in regards to Boucher and co. it's completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

I don't need a wall of text if you take the time to answer this, only the names of players you feel were "taken care of" by PD. Could be bullett points if needed. I just, for the life of me, can't see what PD has done to have earned that reputation (yet anyways).

personally I'd say he took care of Wideman by giving him another contract coming off that injury. I thought that was a classy move by the team .... some teams wouldn't have done that.

what happened after wasn't predictable but it was looking after a guy in a tough spot

 

[DaveMatthew]

Or 3) they are negotiating

I have no idea what is happening here but just as an example, getzlaf and perry a few years ago were in the same boat and both signed with a couple of months left in the season. It can still happen and my gut tells me it will. I don’t see any brighter scenario for Duchene elsewhere

5.5 months of negotiations have not yielded a contract, and with every day that goes by, the leverage that Ottawa has is reduced. Duchene doesn't have to hedge against poor performance or injury, so it becomes much less risky to test the market.

And at this point? What's the downside? He could see what others are offering and still choose to re-sign with Ottawa, like Stamkos did with TB.

But, potential brighter landing spots:

San Jose: Thornton is likely retiring, Pavelski is getting older and more suited as a 2C. He could step in to the top line role and play with one of Meier, Kane or Couture on his wing, and Burns/potentially Karlsson on the back end. It's also warm.

Dallas: Need someone to take pressure off Seguin, and Duchene would make way more take-home cash because of the tax situation.

Nashville: He'd slot in as the #1 on a top team that has cap space but can make room, and he's a Country music fan.

Carolina: Up and coming team with loads of cap space, warm weather, less pressure, low taxes.

A player like Duchene will have lots of options, and several teams would make moves to fit him in.

He might still re-sign here, but there are many other bright scenarios for him.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I choose not to believe Nick Kypreos.

Do you believe Matt Duchene?

“That’s the thing, when you come into that unrestricted year, it’s the first time you have that ultimate power as a player and I think you have to do what’s best for yourself,” Duchene said. “At that point, that’s hard to do because we’re taught to be team guys. We’re taught to be that way as hockey players, everyone’s really humble. But, you know, you have to respect yourself and your career.”

Sounds very much like a Karlsson, "wherever I am I'll get what I'm worth" comment from a guy who's looking forward to being courted by many teams.

 

[GCK]

The comments from Kyle Turris, Erik Karlsson and Marc Methot speak volumes about how Pierre Dorion is perceived. You're all about insinuating, do you remember the Julie Turris "lol" tweet?

If the player's wives feel that way about Dorion, it's probably because of stories their husband's have told them.

Where are the comments from Karlsson, Methot and Turris with regard to Dorion.

 

[GCK]

Nick Kypreos is no different than Bob McKenzie, and he won't reveal his sources. When McKenzie said that the meetings have been positive, he also, has nothing to back that up with. He wasn't there.

So you can choose to believe these "insiders" or not, but the fact remains, 5 and a half months into being eligible to re-sign, Duchene is still without a contract. We're now 7 weeks away from the trade deadline, and with each passing day, Ottawa has less leverage.

If they had made an acceptable offer and Duchene was committed to staying, he'd be signed. He's not, so at least one one of the following statements, if not both, must be true:

1) Dorion has not made an acceptable offer
2) Duchene is not interested in staying

You know negotiations can go on for months. Happens all the time.

 

[stempniaksen]

personally I'd say he took care of Wideman by giving him another contract coming off that injury. I thought that was a classy move by the team .... some teams wouldn't have done that.

what happened after wasn't predictable but it was looking after a guy in a tough spot

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought of the Wideman angle.

The cynical side of me tends to think PD re-signed him in hope of re-couping an asset later in the year when some of the kids showed they could handle full-time duty (which is exactly what happened, so a bit of credit to PD there).

There is some merit to your position though.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

5.5 months of negotiations have not yielded a contract, and with every day that goes by, the leverage that Ottawa has is reduced. Duchene doesn't have to hedge against poor performance or injury, so it becomes much less risky to test the market.

And at this point? What's the downside? He could see what others are offering and still choose to re-sign with Ottawa, like Stamkos did with TB.

But, potential brighter landing spots:

San Jose: Thornton is likely retiring, Pavelski is getting older and more suited as a 2C. He could step in to the top line role and play with one of Meier, Kane or Couture on his wing, and Burns/potentially Karlsson on the back end. It's also warm.

Dallas: Need someone to take pressure off Seguin, and Duchene would make way more take-home cash because of the tax situation.

Nashville: He'd slot in as the #1 on a top team that has cap space but can make room, and he's a Country music fan.

Carolina: Up and coming team with loads of cap space, warm weather, less pressure, low taxes.

A player like Duchene will have lots of options, and several teams would make moves to fit him in.

He might still re-sign here, but there are many other bright scenarios for him.

Nashville and Carolina make sense, although I don’t recall Nashville ever splurging in free agency, and it’s just my view but I think Ottawa’s future is brighter than Carolina (if stone and Duchene are retained), plus if being close to home is important (who knows) than these wouldn’t be great options for him. I don’t see him as somebody who cares about warm climate, nightlife, partying etc

 

[DaveMatthew]

You know negotiations can go on for months. Happens all the time.

Did you see Ian Mendes' article from yesterday? The scenario that Ottawa is in with Duchene and Stone doesn't happen all the time. It actually only happens 6% of the time.

https://www.tsn.ca/recent-history-s...ed-territory-on-duchene-stone-deals-1.1223966

 

[GCK]

Did you see Ian Mendes' article from yesterday? The scenario that Ottawa is in with Duchene and Stone doesn't happen all the time. It actually only happens 6% of the time.

https://www.tsn.ca/recent-history-s...ed-territory-on-duchene-stone-deals-1.1223966

You said either the team didn’t make a real offer or Duchene doesn’t want to be here.

I say that’s not necessarily true, negotiations can take time. Dorion was clear that he hadn’t opened talks with Duchene at the time Karlsson was moved. So they have met multiple times since camp opened. He may not sign but stressing over it day after day is not healthy. We should know about alll 3 UFAs by the trade deadline at the latest. Only 76 days left

 

[foggyvisor]

Did you see Ian Mendes' article from yesterday? The scenario that Ottawa is in with Duchene and Stone doesn't happen all the time. It actually only happens 6% of the time.

https://www.tsn.ca/recent-history-s...ed-territory-on-duchene-stone-deals-1.1223966

Right, and it's obvious this is one of those 6% situations. Why can't you see that?

IMO: I think Melnyk is waiting as long as possibly to see what happens with Lebreton before he commits to giving out 8 year contracts. This single issue will have a massive effect on his finances moving forward, so naturally he's not going to make any early commitments.

I don't understand why Duchene would sign a contract in trade deadline day when he can go UFA a few months later, and likely STILL sign with the Senators if he wants to.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The only thing we can offer is the 8th year. Considering how broke we are, the extra year probably won't do much in terms of extra earnings.

I can't see a scenario where Duchene doesn't go to UFA, even if we end up trading him, he'd be leaving too much money on the table.

 

[coladin]

The only thing we can offer is the 8th year. Considering how broke we are, the extra year probably won't do much in terms of extra earnings.

I can't see a scenario where Duchene doesn't go to UFA, even if we end up trading him, he'd be leaving too much money on the table.

The team will be adding 2M -2.5M a year from now, not exactly impossible. This isn't a new 9M player. Ottawa is already paying him 6.5 . Easy to get rid of some contracts to make it work.

The ball is in Duchene's court of he wants to be here.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The team will be adding 2M -2.5M a year from now, not exactly impossible. This isn't a new 9M player. Ottawa is already paying him 6.5 . Easy to get rid of some contracts to make it work.

The ball is in Duchene's court of he wants to be here.

If getting rid of contracts was easy, League rosters would look very different.

We won't be offering the most money is what I mean. He owes it to himself and his family to at least see what is available. He could go to market and decide to stay; my only definitive is he's going to market

 

[supsens]

Wow you couldnt have done a worse job trying to defend those moves, have you even been a sens fan for that long?

I am not defending anything, Chara and Redden got the same offer Redden stayed. Havlat was not fitting in under the cap. Hossa's numbers suffered in the playoffs and it was at a time when the attitude was to blame soft Euro's who can't playoff hockey.
How old was Alfi? He got bought out and paid twice one apon a time, dont forget.
Methot yep expansion.
Karlsson well whatever cry all you want for him he wanted out

What is so wrong with my statement Mr superfan?

 

[Micklebot]

I am not defending anything, Chara and Redden got the same offer Redden stayed. Havlat was not fitting in under the cap. Hossa's numbers suffered in the playoffs and it was at a time when the attitude was to blame soft Euro's who can't playoff hockey.
How old was Alfi? He got bought out and paid twice one apon a time, dont forget.
Methot yep expansion.
Karlsson well whatever cry all you want for him he wanted out

What is so wrong with my statement Mr superfan?

I don't think that's at all accurate, or rather it's missing some important details. Both got asked to take a home town deal at 6 if they signed as a pair which Redden was apparently ok with but Chara was hoping they'd bend and give him a bit more, when it came time to chose between them, Muckler opted for Redden allegedly against the recommendation of his coaching staff and signed him to 6.5. Chara indicated he was never called by the team in the last 9 days leading into Jul 1st.

Myself and (agent) Matt (Keator) were just sitting there and making all the calls. We told them, ‘Let’s talk and let’s negotiate.’ They said:’ ‘Six million, you sign it or we’re going to go the other way.’ They did. They chose Wade (Redden).

Not sure what your point is wrt Alfredsson's option years getting bought out as a result of the new CBA. Not really relevant imo. There was definitely a falling out due to money in that situation though,

Trading Hossa for Heatley to be "less Euro" would make sense if Heatley was at all gritty. I mean, I guess racism is a possible explanation, but more likely is the fact that Heatley had 3 years at a 4.5 cap hit, and the team saved 4.5 mil in the trade. The trade was actually a pretty solid deal, all considered. Saved money and got a pretty similar quality player, you can't predict that one guy will fall off a cliff as his body deteriorates though. Moreover, reports were that Ottawa offered Hossa 5x5 but Hossa was holding out for a deal like Iginla got (7 mil) before signing a 6x3 year deal to avoid arbitration. Seems more like things soured over money than anything else to me when all the context is examined.

 

[Karl Prime]

Hossa had 30 points in 37 playoff games between 01-02 and 03-04.

Alfie had 24 in 37 in those three playoffs.

 

[Que]

I still break into fits of rage thinking about the potential we squandered by trading for Heatley and letting Chara walk.

It was motivated primarily by money, but the notion of getting less “Euro” was seen as a easier and more profitable team to market, imho.

Going back to Duchene...

This team sucks so much more without him, it’s almost an EK level effect.

We’re going to need to buckle up if we can’t sign him.

 

[supsens]

Hossa had 30 points in 37 playoff games between 01-02 and 03-04.

Alfie had 24 in 37 in those three playoffs.

4 points in 7 games his last try. 2 good years out of 6 and you guys are selective on remembering being 'Roberts' outa the playoffs every year and what it was blamed on.

 

[Sens]

Ya the Sens should have dealt Alfredsson for Conroy.., I mean Alfie first 69 playoff games 27G 48Pts... bust