NFL: Marvin Harrison is more HoF worthy than Terrell Owens

[Quid Pro Clowe]

As per the NFL's voting guidelines, the bold is accurate. Off-field aspects are not supposed to be taken into account.

Neither is being nice to the media, and we see how well that's enforced.

 

[Roboturner913]

It's a real interesting discussion, because T.O. will inevitably be called more talented than Harrison.

But what is talent, really? Harrison may have been the best route-runner in NFL history. That takes talent - and yes, it can be learned but what Harrison did was innate, knowing instinctively how to set guys up and having an awareness of everything that was going on around him. And if he dropped more than 10 passes his entire career I'd be shocked.

That's "talent" in the same way that nobody would say Wayne Gretzky really had any outstanding physical qualities, he just was two steps ahead of everybody else mentally. Same for somebody like Joe Montana. To me that kind of talent is a lot more rare and special than just being bigger and faster than the next guy.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's a real interesting discussion, because T.O. will inevitably be called more talented than Harrison.

But what is talent, really? Harrison may have been the best route-runner in NFL history. That takes talent - and yes, it can be learned but what Harrison did was innate, knowing instinctively how to set guys up and having an awareness of everything that was going on around him. And if he dropped more than 10 passes his entire career I'd be shocked.

That's "talent" in the same way that nobody would say Wayne Gretzky really had any outstanding physical qualities, he just was two steps ahead of everybody else mentally. Same for somebody like Joe Montana. To me that kind of talent is a lot more rare and special than just being bigger and faster than the next guy.

I don't think who has more talent even matters for the purpose of who deserves to go to the Hall first. It's about what you actually did. Owens did more. It should've been pretty easy to see that but sometimes it's more of a popularity contest than a true debate about who deserves it more.

 

[Roboturner913]

I don't think who has more talent even matters for the purpose of who deserves to go to the Hall first. It's about what you actually did. Owens did more. It should've been pretty easy to see that but sometimes it's more of a popularity contest than a true debate about who deserves it more.

The statistical gap between them isn't very big at all - just 1,400 total yards, with TO playing two seasons longer than Harrison did. Harrison at his peak was more productive than TO at his, and Harrison won a Super Bowl.

But I do agree it can be a total popularity contest.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The statistical gap between them isn't very big at all - just 1,400 total yards, with TO playing two seasons longer than Harrison did. Harrison at his peak was more productive than TO at his, and Harrison won a Super Bowl.

But I do agree it can be a total popularity contest.

I don't think a Super Bowl really matters for a receiver or really for anyone beyond the QB. Harrison was in a better situation for most of his career than TO was yet TO had more 1,000 yard seasons. If TO was in Harrison's situation, I think it would be reasonable to believe that TO would out-produce Harrison.

 

[Voight]

I don't think a Super Bowl really matters for a receiver or really for anyone beyond the QB. Harrison was in a better situation for most of his career than TO was yet TO had more 1,000 yard seasons. If TO was in Harrison's situation, I think it would be reasonable to believe that TO would out-produce Harrison.

Yes, Like I stated earlier he played with some good QBs but nobody close to prime/peak Manning.

 

[Roboturner913]

If TO was in Harrison's situation, I think it would be reasonable to believe that TO would out-produce Harrison.

Not so sure about that. TO's route running and hands were less than optimal most of his career and the Colts offenses Harrison played in were all about timing and precision. Not TO's greatest strengths. Likewise I don't think you could put Marvin with a McNabb or Romo and get the same numbers TO put up. They're just two totally different talents.

All I'm saying is I think people are selling Harrison short because of his relative lack of "physical talent" and ignoring the more cerebral aspects of the game. You also have to realize that Marvin had Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edge, Brandon Stokley and so on eating into his target numbers while TO was for most of his career the only WR on his team worth a snot and getting many more chances.

 

[Avs_19]

I think Owens should have gotten in this year, even if it meant keeping Harrison out for now. Owens had the better career.

I just don't like how voters are ignoring some of the actual rules while making up a few of their own as they go along. They're not supposed to look at Owens' behaviour off the field and in the locker room. There's also that "waiting in line" approach Florio described today. Basically for some voters, Owens was never getting in this year because Harrison has been waiting longer. He speculated Moss will then likely have to wait behind Owens if he's not in yet.

A few weeks ago Rich Eisen said Jerry Rice also hurts the WRs. Apparently some feel he should be the only first ballot HOF'er at the WR position because he's the GOAT. Moss should get in the minute he's eligible but there's a good chance he doesn't.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Straight cash, homie.

So bummed we were 4 yards shy of getting Moss that ring.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Not so sure about that. TO's route running and hands were less than optimal most of his career and the Colts offenses Harrison played in were all about timing and precision. Not TO's greatest strengths. Likewise I don't think you could put Marvin with a McNabb or Romo and get the same numbers TO put up. They're just two totally different talents.

All I'm saying is I think people are selling Harrison short because of his relative lack of "physical talent" and ignoring the more cerebral aspects of the game. You also have to realize that Marvin had Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edge, Brandon Stokley and so on eating into his target numbers while TO was for most of his career the only WR on his team worth a snot and getting many more chances.

I don't think you have a real accurate description of TO's skills if you believe that his route running and hands were less than optimal. The only reason it's even close is because Harrison had Manning. You want to talk about other options, it's not like Owens didn't have Rice on the other side for the first five years of his career. Westbrook in Philly was a frequent target and Witten was a frequent target in Dallas. Harrison was thrown to in his prime more often than TO on average. The difference between the two is that TO was better for longer.

 

[Roboturner913]

I don't think you have a real accurate description of TO's skills if you believe that his route running and hands were less than optimal.

No, I think that's a pretty dead-on assessment.

Those two things were always his biggest weaknesses as a player. He was throughout his career pretty consistently among the league leaders in dropped passes, and one year he dropped the most passes in one single season in league history.

http://fantasyknuckleheads.com/foru...l-owens-moving-to-4th-team-in-4-years.158668/

*A front office man points out that one of the reasons Terrell Owens will be moving on to his fourth team in four years this year is he doesn’t always run his route the way he is supposed to and he leaves a lot of gray area for the quarterback. Last year, he led the NFL in most interceptions as a targeted receiver with 12, according to Stats, Inc. What’s more, he has led the league in the category with 43 interceptions over the last five years. And another issue with T.O? He was third in the league in drops last year with 11.



Now, is this me saying TO was a bad player? Absolutely not. What I am saying is that he had certain drawbacks that are hard to ignore compared to a more polished guy like Harrison. And the stat argument doesn't work since the 1,400 yard gap was the result of him playing two more seasons. 1,400 yards over 2 seasons isn't exactly amazing stuff.

But basically, I am saying I don't understand why physical talent is more lauded than mental talent or preparation. Again, the stat argument/career accomplishment doesn't really work because the difference is negligible - so why are so many people so quick to say TO was better? The only reason I can think of is because people equate size/speed with "talent" and ignoring many other more subtle things that contribute to a player's overall "talent level."

I am not saying I strongly believe Marvin was the better player either, I just don't think it's the open-and-shut case that a lot of people seem to think it is.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Straight cash, homie.

So bummed we were 4 yards shy of getting Moss that ring.

Shoulda threw the fade at the end to him instead of Crabtree.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

No, I think that's a pretty dead-on assessment.

Those two things were always his biggest weaknesses as a player. He was throughout his career pretty consistently among the league leaders in dropped passes, and one year he dropped the most passes in one single season in league history.

http://fantasyknuckleheads.com/foru...l-owens-moving-to-4th-team-in-4-years.158668/

*A front office man points out that one of the reasons Terrell Owens will be moving on to his fourth team in four years this year is he doesn’t always run his route the way he is supposed to and he leaves a lot of gray area for the quarterback. Last year, he led the NFL in most interceptions as a targeted receiver with 12, according to Stats, Inc. What’s more, he has led the league in the category with 43 interceptions over the last five years. And another issue with T.O? He was third in the league in drops last year with 11.



Now, is this me saying TO was a bad player? Absolutely not. What I am saying is that he had certain drawbacks that are hard to ignore compared to a more polished guy like Harrison. And the stat argument doesn't work since the 1,400 yard gap was the result of him playing two more seasons. 1,400 yards over 2 seasons isn't exactly amazing stuff.

But basically, I am saying I don't understand why physical talent is more lauded than mental talent or preparation. Again, the stat argument/career accomplishment doesn't really work because the difference is negligible - so why are so many people so quick to say TO was better? The only reason I can think of is because people equate size/speed with "talent" and ignoring many other more subtle things that contribute to a player's overall "talent level."

I am not saying I strongly believe Marvin was the better player either, I just don't think it's the open-and-shut case that a lot of people seem to think it is.

You'd think but it isn't and finding one article that may agree doesn't prove anything. If drops and route-running were as much of a concern as you make it out to be...so much to the point that overrides Owens having more yards and TD's...he wouldn't have been thrown to as much as he was. It's a soft argument at best.

 

[Voight]

So a HOF voter is saying that T.O's locker room issues were the reason he wasnt elected on his first ballot. He also says they are only to consider on-field things but they consider the locker room apart f that, total B.S IMO. This isnt the popularity hall of fame.

 

[Hasbro]

So a HOF voter is saying that T.O's locker room issues were the reason he wasnt elected on his first ballot. He also says they are only to consider on-field things but they consider the locker room apart f that, total B.S IMO. This isnt the popularity hall of fame.

It had tangible negative effects on his career and teams he played on.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

It had tangible negative effects on his career and teams he played on.

Not on the field, where hof voting is supposed to matter.

 

[Hasbro]

Not on the field, where hof voting is supposed to matter.

He got himself kicked off an contending Eagles team which finished 6-10.

 

[Shockmaster]

If Owens wasn't voted in the HoF for personality issues, then why is Warren Sapp in the HoF?

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

He got himself kicked off an contending Eagles team which finished 6-10.

Which shows just how important his on field contributions were.

 

[Hasbro]

Which shows just how important his on field contributions were.

Yet he decided slagging his QB and getting ******** about there being insufficient recognition of his 100th TD was more important.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Yet he decided slagging his QB and getting ******** about there being insufficient recognition of his 100th TD was more important.

Which has what to do with his on field production?

Look, he's undeniably a self-centered primadonna, who burned about every bridge on every team he played on at the end of his tenure there, but you can not deny when it came time to play, he helped every team he played for be better.

 

[Hasbro]

Which has what to do with his on field production?

Eliminated 9 potential games of it and ended up on worse teams because of it.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Eliminated 9 potential games of it and ended up on worse teams because of it.

You're either missing the point or purposely avoiding it.

 

[Voight]

He got himself kicked off an contending Eagles team which finished 6-10.

And? He still put up all-toime great numbers.

 

[Halladay]

In 2005 TO was a circus. He was a huge distraction and even though he was so great in 2004, the team made the playoffs 4 straight years before and in 2006. They didnt have another losing season til 2012. After he got sent home from training camp he would just work out on his front lawn.