Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Because he was on the verge of retirement? And it took him several years before he was energized enough to return to active hockey? Something that could be missed when you imply that those seasons were consecutive.

There are plenty of plausible answers other than the one you're trying to force upon us. And it's funny how every factual error of yours is automatically deemed minutia.

The verge of retirement? He was 36, the same age Brodeur was when he won his last Vezina. I'm sorry I don't buy it. He had just finished a 67 game season with Buffalo. Also he only faced 70 less shots in 2 less games than the season prior with Buffalo, yet his save % dropped 6 points. From everyones arguments with Hasek you'd believe his save % to be at .955 with a team that Detroit had that year.

In my opinion that Red Wings team was the best team I've ever seen in my life and Hasek put up very Brodeur like numbers.

EDIT - You seem to be talking about a different year than Jim, he is talking about the 01-02 Wings. I don't see any factual error in what he wrote.
 
Last edited:

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Corey Schwab career stats.

Devils: 24 games, .929 save%, 1.54 GAA, 2 shutouts, 7-6-2 record

Non-Devils: 123 games, .896 save%, 3.13 GAA, 4 shutouts, 35-57-11 record

Corey Schwab Games Played:

Devils:
95-96 - 10GP
02-03 - 11GP
03-04 - 3GP

WOW - good sample. There should really be quality assurance for arguments on this board.

edit - You also fail to mention 87 of those 123 games or 2/3rds were with the last place Tampa Bay Lightning.
 
Last edited:

Ol Dirty Bstrd

Registered User
Nov 25, 2007
1,784
396
I'm not really concerned with what happened when Roy was in his 30's and when Brodeur was in his 20's, especially Vezina voting. I'm more concerned with what the sv% numbers from the regular season and playoffs tell me, what my eyes told me throughout their careers, and the impact I watched them both have on their teams' Stanley Cup victories.

If you're attempting to argue that Brodeur is better than Roy, that's a non-starter right there. This has been gone over time and again, and there is no real argument in Brodeur's favour. But knock yourself out.

Well than thats pathetic if your telling me Roy was inferior in his 30s compared to Brodeur who was in his 20s, when its clear that Brodeur never had a "prime" and has been playing at an equal level basically his entire career. By that logic, Brodeur's play in his 30s is also more impressive than Roy's play in his 30s. That should be a huge argument for Brodeur over Roy - the fact that there has been no drop off in his play from his rookie year right up to this current day. Yet, you admitted, as the opinions of the 30 NHL GMs show, that this level of play that Brodeur has achieved could not be matched by Roy in his 30s, when Brodeur is 36 and still playing at this level. Roy was 29 in Brodeurs rookie year, so from when Roy was 29-40, he was voted better than Brodeur a grand total of twice. I got news for you, 29-early 30s are prime years, stop trying to pretend Roy was over the hill when Brodeur was outperforming him when they were both in the league. These facts are way more important and relevant than the "how would Brodeur have done in the high scoring 80s that Roy played in" stupid hypothetical scenarios.


Now, playoff stats are a whole different picture, and really the reason I cant just say Brodeur is better than Roy. But there were things like divisional playoffs that padded Roys playoff numbers and wins, just like Brodeurs had the benefit of many different rules in his era. But if I have the option of Roy or Brodeur from the beginning of their careers to be my franchise goalie Im taking Brodeur hands down.
 

Ol Dirty Bstrd

Registered User
Nov 25, 2007
1,784
396
Glenn Hall ended his brilliant career with 407 Wins, 84 Shutouts, a career GAA of 2.49, and voted to 11 All-Star Games. Hall is widely regarded as one of the first NHL goalies to master the butterfly style of goaltending. He is thought of by many as one of the best goalies to ever play the game. Hall still holds the record for the most First Team All-Star selections (7) which he did while playing the same era as other greats, Sawchuk and Plante (as well as other Hall of Famers, like Johnny Bower, and Gump Worsley).

He captured the Vezina trophy three times,, led three different teams to the Stanley Cup, winning the Conn Smythe trophy in 1968 and also won the Calder trophy in his rookie season of 1955. Hall managed to play 502 consecutive complete games, which spanned eight seasons, an NHL record that will probably never be broken. But the striking thing was that this record will never be broken in the sense that he never once wore a goaltending mask or helmet during the streak. It was only late in his career that he did wear a mask.

As for Brodeur he has been named a first team all-star less, played for a team that has played a suffocating defensive style, in a time known as the dead puck era, whereas Hall, especially with the Hawks played behind a run and gun squad where defense was an afterthought.

Of course, I could point this statistic out, compiled before this season of Devils goaltenders from 2002-07.

M. Brodeur: 340 games, 2.17 GAA, .916 save%, 37 shutouts, 0.11 shutouts/game

Backups: 44 games, 2.17 GAA, .913 save%, 4 shutouts, 0.09 shutouts/game


And how did Scott Clemmenson do in the Devils nets this year ??

You keep bringing up Clemmensen in the Devils net this year. He had 2 shutouts in 40 games, it took him like 35 games to record his first. Brodeur has 4 in 13 games. Great argument. Maybe its not as easy to get a shutout as you think.


And as been said a million times, the Devils backups only played against the leagues cellar dwellers. Terrible stat.
 

Ol Dirty Bstrd

Registered User
Nov 25, 2007
1,784
396
While Clemmensen had the easier matchups as a backup in previous seasons, Brodeur's had the easier matchups this year. 8 of his 13 games have been at home, and I'd argue that 9 of the 13 have been against below-average teams (Washington and Philadelphia are the exceptions.)

In any case, 13 games isn't much to base an argument on. I'd rather wait until the end of the year to run the numbers, when these factors should wash out. IMO, it would be a mistake to take the 3 shots prevented per game as a meaningful number at this point.

1. The Devils have been better on the road this year, especially in the early part. 8 out of 13 at home means nothing.

2. I clearly see you have no idea what your talking about, considering Brodeur has played the Flyers 3 times already this year, a very good Panthers team recently, and the Rangers at the beginning of the year who were one of the best teams in the league. You also note that he's played Washington. So that is 6 out of 13 difficult games at least, and that is just off the top of my head.
 

Ol Dirty Bstrd

Registered User
Nov 25, 2007
1,784
396
5-10 shots is ridiculous. Before we had a greater sample size to look at thanks to his injury this season, the difference was 0.65 per game. I already said that the teams they played had something to do with the small difference as well. This can't account for 5-10 more shots.

Um no, 5-10 is not ridiculous. Id definitely lean toward the lower end of that range though. 5 is definitely reasonable. You might as well admit that your .65 argument has been pretty much completely debunked. While the difference of 3 shots/game this year is not taken from a huge sample size, its the best we have to work with. Keep in mind thats 3 shots WITH A TRAPEZOID. So tell me again how the estimate of 5 shots in the pre-trapezoid era is "ridiculous."
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
I also remember seeing statistics that the Devils' home arenas have recorded fewer shots than the league average.
 

Jason MacIsaac

Registered User
Jan 13, 2004
22,264
6,028
Halifax, NS
I also remember seeing statistics that the Devils' home arenas have recorded fewer shots than the league average.
Fewer shots, fewer hits, fewer takeaways, fewer giveaways, fewer blocked shots. I imagine if you do a study all of these stats would be less then other arenas.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,601
27,401
The verge of retirement? He was 36, the same age Brodeur was when he won his last Vezina. I'm sorry I don't buy it. He had just finished a 67 game season with Buffalo. Also he only faced 70 less shots in 2 less games than the season prior with Buffalo, yet his save % dropped 6 points. From everyones arguments with Hasek you'd believe his save % to be at .955 with a team that Detroit had that year.

In my opinion that Red Wings team was the best team I've ever seen in my life and Hasek put up very Brodeur like numbers.

EDIT - You seem to be talking about a different year than Jim, he is talking about the 01-02 Wings. I don't see any factual error in what he wrote.

Yes, Jim's talking about the 2001-02 Wings. And when I say that Dominik Hasek was on the verge of retirement, I'm not speaking figuratively. He retired on June 25, 2002.

So yes, Hasek was on the verge of retirement in 2001-02. Literally.
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Yes, Jim's talking about the 2001-02 Wings. And when I say that Dominik Hasek was on the verge of retirement, I'm not speaking figuratively. He retired on June 25, 2002.

So yes, Hasek was on the verge of retirement in 2001-02. Literally.

Doctor No said:
And it took him several years before he was energized enough to return to active hockey?


edit - I see what your saying now and I still don't think it changes his argument.

I fail to see where this part of your quote comes into play? Verge of retirement or not he was 36 and showed he had a few more years of hockey left, so I fail to see what that has to do with his worst save % in 8 years on the best team he's played for. Which was Jim's argument.
 
Last edited:

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Fewer shots, fewer hits, fewer takeaways, fewer giveaways, fewer blocked shots. I imagine if you do a study all of these stats would be less then other arenas.

Yes and surprisingly it was accounted for both teams, so it did not just have to do with the Devils style of play at home.
 

Lou is God

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
26,567
10,030
New Jersey
I'm hard on Brodeur, but when I read things like this it really gets me wondering how good he is. I have him 7th all-time right now; am I too generous? Sometimes I think so.

Good lord, I seen most of your posts in here and with all due respect I suggest you take you eyes off the stat sheets and watch the man play the game more, to suggest you would barely have him in your top ten is compete nonsense.
 

Canadiens Fan

Registered User
Oct 3, 2008
737
9
You keep bringing up Clemmensen in the Devils net this year. He had 2 shutouts in 40 games, it took him like 35 games to record his first. Brodeur has 4 in 13 games. Great argument. Maybe its not as easy to get a shutout as you think.


And as been said a million times, the Devils backups only played against the leagues cellar dwellers. Terrible stat.

I would suggest that Clemmensen's opposition this year has not been limited to cellar-dwellers.

As has been said here before shutouts are nowhere near as accurate a statistic of a goalie's value as save percentage (the most telling stat) and goals against average. You guys can sugercoat all you want but when Brodeur went down this year the Devils didn't miss a beat.

Furthermore they were able to take a goalie discarded by the Toronto Maple Leafs and get to the top of the Eastern Conference this season with him in the nets.

Brodeur is a very good goaltender, no question, but his career statistics reflect more the team he's played on as opposed to his own greatness. Imagine Roberto Luongo, he of the better save percentage than Brodeur, playing for the defensively superior Devils as opposed to the lowly Panthers and the average Canucks.
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
I would suggest that Clemmensen's opposition this year has not been limited to cellar-dwellers.

As has been said here before shutouts are nowhere near as accurate a statistic of a goalie's value as save percentage (the most telling stat) and goals against average. You guys can sugercoat all you want but when Brodeur went down this year the Devils didn't miss a beat.

Furthermore they were able to take a goalie discarded by the Toronto Maple Leafs and get to the top of the Eastern Conference this season with him in the nets.

Brodeur is a very good goaltender, no question, but his career statistics reflect more the team he's played on as opposed to his own greatness. Imagine Roberto Luongo, he of the better save percentage than Brodeur, playing for the defensively superior Devils as opposed to the lowly Panthers and the average Canucks.

UGH! You fail to acknowledge this Devils team is far superior to seasons' past. Is everyone that dense? They are on pace to score 50 more goals!!

It is obvious that the Devils lost a beat with Clemmer and Weekes in net; just look at how Brodeur has played this season.

Your last quote says it all. Luongo does not belong in the discussion with Brodeur, period. Not yet at least.

You can sugar coat the adjectives all you want.

You say defensively superior, I say offensively challenged.
 

Lou is God

Registered User
Nov 10, 2003
26,567
10,030
New Jersey
I would suggest that Clemmensen's opposition this year has not been limited to cellar-dwellers.

As has been said here before shutouts are nowhere near as accurate a statistic of a goalie's value as save percentage (the most telling stat) and goals against average. You guys can sugercoat all you want but when Brodeur went down this year the Devils didn't miss a beat.

Furthermore they were able to take a goalie discarded by the Toronto Maple Leafs and get to the top of the Eastern Conference this season with him in the nets.

Brodeur is a very good goaltender, no question, but his career statistics reflect more the team he's played on as opposed to his own greatness. Imagine Roberto Luongo, he of the better save percentage than Brodeur, playing for the defensively superior Devils as opposed to the lowly Panthers and the average Canucks.

Yeah man, the Devils offense compared to last years in night and day on the stat sheets and on the ice, if we had Brodeur the whole season we probably be neck and neck with Boston right now.
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
We don't need to imagine a Dominik Hasek on a New Jersey Devils like team. He played for a team that was, in my opinion, better than any of Brodeur's squads and here are his Hasekesque numbers...

GP
65

GAA
2.17

save%
.915

Win-Loss
41-15-8
5 shutouts

Shots against
1794
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Yeah man, the Devils offense compared to last years in night and day on the stat sheets and on the ice, if we had Brodeur the whole season we probably be neck and neck with Boston right now.

We are neck and neck with Boston the only thing that separates us is 1 win and 6 losses (OT losses).
 

Canadiens Fan

Registered User
Oct 3, 2008
737
9
UGH! You fail to acknowledge this Devils team is far superior to seasons' past. Is everyone that dense? They are on pace to score 50 more goals!!

It is obvious that the Devils lost a beat with Clemmer and Weekes in net; just look at how Brodeur has played this season.

Your last quote says it all. Luongo does not belong in the discussion with Brodeur, period. Not yet at least.

You can sugar coat the adjectives all you want.

You say defensively superior, I say offensively challenged.

Brodeur's Save Percentage Ranks:

1994: 4th
1995: 17th
1996: 8th
1997: 2nd
1998: 5th
1999: 17th
2000: 12th
2001: 16th Luongo 7th
2002: 19th Luongo 10th
2003: 13th Luongo 9th
2004: 10th Luongo 3rd
2006: 10th Luongo 9th
2007: 2nd Luongo 4th
2008: 6th Luongo 14th

Active Goaltenders Career Save Percentage

Roberto Luongo 1st, Martin Brodeur 4th
 

mtxed

Registered User
Aug 17, 2007
936
1
And if Brodeur played on Detroit he would have 10 rings now.

What is your point?

Obviously it's easier to play on a top team...but Brodeur needs his team as much as his team needs him. And I'd argue his team needs him more...judging by all the LOW SCORING GAMES Brodeur has singlehandedly dominated.


I would suggest that Clemmensen's opposition this year has not been limited to cellar-dwellers.

As has been said here before shutouts are nowhere near as accurate a statistic of a goalie's value as save percentage (the most telling stat) and goals against average. You guys can sugercoat all you want but when Brodeur went down this year the Devils didn't miss a beat.

Furthermore they were able to take a goalie discarded by the Toronto Maple Leafs and get to the top of the Eastern Conference this season with him in the nets.

Brodeur is a very good goaltender, no question, but his career statistics reflect more the team he's played on as opposed to his own greatness. Imagine Roberto Luongo, he of the better save percentage than Brodeur, playing for the defensively superior Devils as opposed to the lowly Panthers and the average Canucks.
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
Brodeur's Save Percentage Ranks:

1994: 4th
1995: 17th
1996: 8th
1997: 2nd
1998: 5th
1999: 17th
2000: 12th
2001: 16th Luongo 7th
2002: 19th Luongo 10th
2003: 13th Luongo 9th
2004: 10th Luongo 3rd
2006: 10th Luongo 9th
2007: 2nd Luongo 4th
2008: 6th Luongo 14th

Active Goaltenders Career Save Percentage

Roberto Luongo 1st, Martin Brodeur 4th

Not convinced. Florida padded Luongo's save % stats while New Jersey's team defense prevented shots which ultimately hurt Brodeur's save %.

Luongo's a product of the system man.

Frustrating isn't it?
 

Canadiens Fan

Registered User
Oct 3, 2008
737
9
Corey Schwab Games Played:

Devils:
95-96 - 10GP
02-03 - 11GP
03-04 - 3GP

WOW - good sample. There should really be quality assurance for arguments on this board.

edit - You also fail to mention 87 of those 123 games or 2/3rds were with the last place Tampa Bay Lightning.

And you fail to mention that 30 of those games were with the 100 point Maple Leafs of 2001-02.
 

haakon84

Registered User
Dec 14, 2003
2,553
0
And you fail to mention that 30 of those games were with the 100 point Maple Leafs of 2001-02.

So what?

1/3rds of his games with other teams were with a high scoring Toronto team and the other 2/3rds were with one of the worst teams in the league.

If I mentioned that what would it solve? You brought up the silly point in the first place.
 

Ol Dirty Bstrd

Registered User
Nov 25, 2007
1,784
396
Brodeur's Save Percentage Ranks:

1994: 4th
1995: 17th
1996: 8th
1997: 2nd
1998: 5th
1999: 17th
2000: 12th
2001: 16th Luongo 7th
2002: 19th Luongo 10th
2003: 13th Luongo 9th
2004: 10th Luongo 3rd
2006: 10th Luongo 9th
2007: 2nd Luongo 4th
2008: 6th Luongo 14th

Active Goaltenders Career Save Percentage

Roberto Luongo 1st, Martin Brodeur 4th

And Florida notoriously pads goalies shots against and stats. And has been said numerous times Brodeur is possibly the best puckhandler of all time and his standup style gives him superior rebound control whereas Luongo is a butterfly goalie with bad rebound control and no puckhandling ability to speak of. As has also been said a billion times there are dozens of cases that prove goalies tend to put up higher SV% on worse teams, just look at Brodeurs stats since that "Hall of Fame defense" has been broken up.



The fact that you even compared Luongo to Brodeur is a joke. He has won nothing and is easily the most overrated player in the game today.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad