Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

[Puckhead58*]

No thats not the bottom line.

The bottom line is this is a very elite team and it is far different than any team we've had besides our SCF reaching teams. So it's moot to compare it to say last years team which scored 206 goals. I'd like to see Clemmer or Weekes in there when the Devils score a goal or less 28 times.

No matter what you say about the Devils, they have been a cup contending team for the past 12 years at least!!!

The Devils are always a winning team and in the playoff contention EVERY YEAR!!!! They have lost a lot of players, but they still have a good core that believes in the teams system and continue to play it.

That system is what makes them a winning team. It works for everybody on the team and everybody on the team bought into the system. That is the reason they have had success even when their team is weaker that other years.
The system is the reason for the teams success, and since the team has great success, Brodeur or anyone else in their net has great success too.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I'm going to remind you both of my post at the start of this thread.

 

[haakon84]

Alright was about to delete it. I am trying to bring a thoughtful and statistical argument to the table and I can no longer be bothered with the system argument.

No one is denying that Brodeur hasn't benefitted from the Devils, its at what degree.

 

[nik jr]

brodeur's backups:

vanbiesbrouck '02
PHI: 97p
CHI: 96p
PHX: 95p
WAS (twice): 85p

2.00, .915


vanbiesbrouck '01
PHX: 90p
VCR: 90p
TB: 58p
CHI: 71p

1.50 GAA, .935 sv%


clemmensen '04
PIT: (twice) 58p
WSH: 59p
ATL: 78p

1.01, .952


schwab '04
TOR: 103p
PIT: 58p
WSH: 59p

.67, .971


clemmensen '06
NYR (3 times): 100p
TB: 92p
BUF: 110p
DRW: 124p
BOS (twice): 74p
PITT: (3 times) 58p
NYI (twice): 78p

3.35, .881


weekes '08
FLA: 85p
NYI: 79p
PIT: 102p (relieved brodeur)
PIT: 102p
WSH: 94p
BOS: 94p
NYI: 79p (made 1 save while brodeur's skate was being fixed.)
PIT: 102p (relieved brodeur)
PHI: 95p (relieved brodeur)

2.97, .894


schwab '03
TB: 93p
NSH: 74p
TOR: (twice) 98p
ANA: 95p
BUF: (twice) 72p
PIT: (twice) 65p
CAL: 75p
BOS: 87p

1.47, .933


clemmensen '07
NSH: 110p
OTT: 105p (relieved brodeur)
BOS: 76p
WSH: 70p
CAR: 88p (relieved brodeur)
NYI: 92p

3.15, .889

 

[Puckhead58*]

What else is there to say. The Devils have had success for 15 years and so has Brodeur.

If the Devils weren't a winning team and Brodeur still put up the numbers he has, then I would never doubt that the guy is the greatest goalie to ever play the game, but since he has played on a winning team his whole career and his numbers simply reflect that, then of course he is going to have great stats.

The fact that Clemmensen had success with the Devils even though he isn't good enough to be a backup, proves that the Devils have a strong team and a strong system that allows any goalie to win in their net.

Looking at Brodeur's backup goalies statistics proves that theory even more so. Guys like Schwab, Dunham, Clemmensen and Terreri all have good numbers as Brodeurs backups. That sounds to me like the Devils are a strong enough team to win no matter who is in their net.

 

[haakon84]

So from my calculations Brodeur's backups faced a team which averaged 71 points a season.

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

So from my calculations Brodeur's backups faced a team which averaged 71 points a season.

Not only that but the first 4 years posted can be completely disregarded due to small sample size (and often weak teams) and the only other somewhat impressive numbers outside of that was Schwab in 03 on a cup winning team who played 7 out of 11 games against teams with under 90 points (and still that is a very small sample size).

 

[Puckhead58*]

So from my calculations Brodeur's backups faced a team which averaged 71 points a season.

You mean the same teams that Brodeur also faced throughout the season??

If your trying to get at the idea that the backup's stats are good because they faced weaker teams, then you can say the same about Brodeur too.
I'm sure backups faced their share of top 5 teams and bottom 5 teams just the same as Brodeur does throughout the season.

Thats a weak arguement. Clemmensen played 40 games....so I'm sure he seen the best and the worst the league has to offer....just the same as Brodeur would have and Clemmensen still won 25 games out of 40.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

If your trying to get at the idea that the backup's stats are good because they faced weaker teams, then you can say the same about Brodeur too.

This doesn't follow. If you had a very good goaltender and a mediocre goaltender, wouldn't you play your better goaltender against the better opponents?

 

[haakon84]

You mean the same teams that Brodeur also faced throughout the season??

If your trying to get at the idea that the backup's stats are good because they faced weaker teams, then you can say the same about Brodeur too.
I'm sure backups faced their share of top 5 teams and bottom 5 teams just the same as Brodeur does throughout the season.

Thats a weak arguement. Clemmensen played 40 games....so I'm sure he seen the best and the worst the league has to offer....just the same as Brodeur would have and Clemmensen still won 25 games out of 40.

I was just stating what people were wondering. I'm not going to sway your opinion and I don't find much merit in your argument.

 

[seventieslord]

Alright Ill Im concerned with is that Brodeur outplayed Roy while they were both in the league. Brodeur was young and Roy had plenty of prime years left. Brodeur is still continuing that elite level of play well into his 30s. Those facts to me are way more telling than speculating if Brodeur could have hypothetically matched Roys stats in the 80s.

All we have to go by is watching them in relation to their peers if you're not willing to speculate about numbers. If you are, take a look at each goalie's sv% and how it related to the league average each season. It's rather telling.

That number shows 3 less shots per game and that is with a trapezoid. I know every goaltender deals with a trapezoid. My point is that in the years before the trapezoid the disparity would be even greater than 3 shots per game because there was no trapezoid to hinder Brodeurs puckandling abilities.

We don't have to speculate about what it would be like without the trapezoid. It was like that for 11 years and we know based on the stats that it was 0.65 per game.

What first question?

I disagree, Brodeur is 7 years younger than both Roy and Hasek I fail to see them as in his time,

And there is no way Roy and Hasek were definitively better. No such stats support "definitive". If there are no equals, how is he not dominant?

The first question was "what is Brodeur's time?"

Their careers overlap enough for them to be considered contemporaries. If you disagree, I'm not going to convince you.

There are no "definitive" stats to prove anything but when the overwhelming majority of us in the HOH section have objectively assessed all that we know about both goalies, we put Roy and Hasek comfortably ahead of Brodeur on our list.

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

Overrated like a fox.
Thank god all the haters who draw at any straw they can while ignoring stats, awards, accomplishments, championships etc, etc will no have impact on basically every major hockey analyst calling him the best, if not one of the best to ever backstop in this game.

I have never seen a goalie like Luongo, who has accomplished nothing on a large scale, have so many fanboys riding his jock. Maybe Roberto can get past the semi finals this season, if he even makes the playoffs.

 

[Devils Mike*]

Brodeur is the most underrated and hasek/roy are pure overrated. I wonder where both of them are on the shutout record list?

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

I am comfortable with the Roy vs Brodeur argument, they are both the class of their time.
Hasek gets a little too much push from some of you people.
Go check out the "class of the league" D-crew the Devils had the last two times he won a Vezina.

 

[seventieslord]

So from my calculations Brodeur's backups faced a team which averaged 71 points a season.

Yes, I'm sure you found that somehow, but under a more correct way of calculating, the average was actually 77 points. (3787 in 49 games, obviously not counting relief appearances and one-save games, and all double or triple games counted as 2 or 3)

Surely less than average but also far from the "Brodeur's backups played the absolute worst teams in the league!!!!" theory that's going around. I doubt the discrepancy is any different from most other teams. (if you're going to actually go figure this out you should pick a few teams whose starters played 65 games or so, otherwise the backups won't have any choice but to play some better teams, which would skew the results)

 

[overpass]

Ok I dug the stats up and unfortunately it's only a 1 game sample. Here is from a similar Brodeur argument way back in '06...



http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=4492389&postcount=77

Is it argument worthy? That's to be decided, but if people can use Schwab's back up samples than why not.

Yes, I think that's a good argument. In fact, it's probably the best argument that SV% underrates Brodeur. I've run the numbers for the seven years from 2000-01 to 2007-08 comparing each team's total shots in home games to their total shots in road games. Here are the five teams with the biggest increase in shots in road games compared to home games.

Year | Team | HomeSOG | RoadSOG | Ratio | TotalSV% | AdjSV% | Diff
2001-2008 | Dallas | 50.3 | 55.6 | 0.90 | 0.906 | 0.911 | -0.004
2001-2008 | New Jersey | 53.4 | 58.2 | 0.92 | 0.911 | 0.915 | -0.004
2001-2008 | Minnesota | 52.7 | 57.0 | 0.92 | 0.915 | 0.918 | -0.003
2001-2008 | Vancouver | 54.7 | 58.0 | 0.94 | 0.905 | 0.907 | -0.003
2001-2008 | Chicago | 54.8 | 58.0 | 0.94 | 0.896 | 0.899 | -0.003

New Jersey has had 53.4 shots for and against in their home games, and 58.2 shots for and against in their road games. I calculate that if the entire discrepancy is due to New Jersey's scorer undercounting shots, New Jersey's team SV% over that time should be .915 instead of .911.

I still don't think Brodeur is the greatest of all time. His low PP shots against mean that his average shot quality may not have been as high as others. However, this difference in shot counting needs to be noted.

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

What really bothers me is that people will clamor about who played infront of Brodeur.
Take a look at who played infront of Hasek and Roy. Those Lanch teams, especially the 2001 team (who people conveniently forget was a defensive all star team) were no slouches. Hasek played for the god damn Red Wings of all teams and that 99 Sabres team who got a "free pass" for playing the trap.
People seem to also hold it against Marty that he has incredible conditioning and has had a longer career than Hasek. Staying healthy is a part of the game as well.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Brodeur is the most underrated and hasek/roy are pure overrated. I wonder where both of them are on the shutout record list?

If this isn't cherry-picking of statistics to suit one's predetermined opinion, then I don't know what is.

 

[Puckhead58*]

Overrated like a fox.
Thank god all the haters who draw at any straw they can while ignoring stats, awards, accomplishments, championships etc, etc will no have impact on basically every major hockey analyst calling him the best, if not one of the best to ever backstop in this game.

I have never seen a goalie like Luongo, who has accomplished nothing on a large scale, have so many fanboys riding his jock. Maybe Roberto can get past the semi finals this season, if he even makes the playoffs.

A lot of people like Luongo because he is the best goalie in the game right now!!! He has tremendous skill and is very athletic. He plays just as many games as Brodeur does every year, but since Luongo has never played on a team like the Devils, he gets ignored dispite having just as good of numbers for GAA and Save %. The only category he doesn't compete with other goalies in is wins and loses because he has played on some crappy teams like the Islanders, Panthers and Canucks instead of a team like the Devils who have been amongst the top 5 teams in the league for 15 years.

If you put a guy with Luongo's skills on a team like the Devils for 12 years or more during his prime, he would without a doubt eclipse Brodeurs stats and career numbers. Luongo is just simply that good.

Its just a shame that a guy like Luongo gets no respect.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And how many bottom ten teams did Scott Clemmensen face this year ??

40 games, 2.39 gaa, .917 save percentage, 25 wins, 13 losses, 1 overtime loss

Martin Brodeur:

13 games, 1.81 GAA, .928 save percentage, 9 wins, 2 losses, 2 overtime losses, 4 shutouts.

Brodeur has twice as many shutouts as he does regulation losses this year.

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

A lot of people like Luongo because he is the best goalie in the game right now!!! He has tremendous skill and is very athletic. He plays just as many games as Brodeur does every year, but since Luongo has never played on a team like the Devils, he gets ignored dispite having just as good of numbers for GAA and Save %. The only category he doesn't compete with other goalies in is wins and loses because he has played on some crappy teams like the Islanders, Panthers and Canucks instead of a team like the Devils who have been amongst the top 5 teams in the league for 15 years.

If you put a guy with Luongo's skills on a team like the Devils for 12 years or more during his prime, he would without a doubt eclipse Brodeurs stats and career numbers. Luongo is just simply that good.

Its just a shame that a guy like Luongo gets no respect.

He is the best goalie in the game right now? In what? NHL 09 on your Playstation 3?
He is a world class goalie but you cannot give these accolades to Luongo without merit while taking the same away from Brodeur who has earned them.

 

[seventieslord]

Brodeur is the most underrated and hasek/roy are pure overrated. I wonder where both of them are on the shutout record list?

Yes, cause that's REAL important.

 

[arrbez]

If this isn't cherry-picking of statistics to suit one's predetermined opinion, then I don't know what is.

Seriously. I don't mean to typecast an entire fanbase, but I don't recall Montreal, Colorado, or Buffalo fans being so blindly insistent that Roy and Hasek are the best like NJ fans invariably seem to be with Brodeur.

Whenever the inevitable Hasek/Roy/Brodeur polls come up, it's almost exclusively guys with Devil's avatars arguing for Brodeur, while pretty much everyone else seems to go with one of the other two.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

Having just analyzed Brodeur's game logs from the 2001-02 season onward, it appears that there's something to the argument that there was/is a recording bias at the Meadowlands. In some of the years, there's a large discrepancy between Brodeur's road and home save percentage.

While posting the data basically undermines the position I've taken in these types of debates in the past -- namely, as a detractor of Brodeur, my sense of intellectual honesty compels me to do so.

I'll post the results when I get home later tonight.

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

Yes, cause that's REAL important.

My fellow Devils fan was going overboard but the wins and shutout record isnt important? Hes going to break the wins record with at the least 3-4 years left in his career, thats pretty god damn impressive, and shows that he is one of, if not the best conditioned goalie of all time.
I guarentee if it was Hasek chasing it right now people would be (Mod Edit) about it on this board.
Alot of people have a problem with Brodeur because he is infact a New Jersey Devil, and this board is proof positive of it.