Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

[JimEIV]

I would say that he's the best right now, but not all time.
how many wins left until he passes Roy?

547 + 5 = 552

I personally feel the shutout record is much larger than the win records.

 

[finchster]

Brodeur is not the greatest goalie of all time by any stretch of the imagination nor is he Mike Vernon. If I was to rate the greatest goalies of all time I would probably have something like

Dominik Hasek
Jacques Plante
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk
Martin Brodeur/Glen Hall

Being a top five or top ten goalie of all time of all time is where he belongs but probably not near the top three. I find goalies harder to rate than players

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I personally feel the shutout record is much larger than the win records.

The shutout record is much more era-dependant than the win record.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I think that is pretty significant that GM's felt Roy was better only 2 times in the 11 years they played together.

Brodeur finishes ahead of Roy 9 of 11 seasons in Vezina voting and it that does mean anything to you? And the first time it happened Brodeur was a Rookie, so the only real time was 2001

I think an important factor is playoff performance and ability to single-handedly carry a team when it really counts. And Patrick's 3 Conn Smythes to Martin's 0 probably influence a lot of opinions... mine incuded.

 

[yakitate304]

I think Brodeur is easily overrated by people that just look purely at numbers and rarely if ever watch a game of hockey. But pretty much anyone that watched the three play and isnt a raging Devils homer will tell you Hasek and Roy were a clearly step above.

Growing up in Upstate NY, I've watched most of the Sabres games since I was a kid, and I would rate Hasek a step above Brodeur. On the other hand, I would not say that Brodeur or Roy was better than than the other.

And I would say that on the same argument, Brodeur is also underrated by the people who look at the numbers rather than his play. It's not just his ability to stop the puck. People see that he faced lower shot totals and take away "points" from him, but often fail to realize that his puck-handling ability prevents a lot of time spent in the defensive zone, and probably 5-10 shots per game on average, depending on the quality of the opposition. Even with the trapezoid in place, it still applies, although to a lesser extent. I think that even a lot of Devils fans looked past this, simply because we had gotten so accustomed to it over the years. The injury and subsequent return re-opened our eyes.

The games since Marty's return have been a perfect display of the difference he makes. Against Philly, early in the game he handled a lot of dump and chase situations, leading to smooth transitions up the ice. As the game went on and the Flyers became wary of dumping it in, they were forced to try to create off the rush, which becomes predictable and led to a stretch of play where Devils defensemen were deflecting just about every shot into the mesh because they knew that they could step up to the play rather than having to worry about the puck getting behind them. With Clemmensen/Weekes, this never happened. Our defense had to take care of both rushing attacks and dump and chase situations, and the latter often brought about extended periods of play in our zone, simply because we couldn't deal with the initial dump-in. So while the argument often goes that the Devils teams have made it easier for Brodeur, it should also be said that Brodeur made it easier for the Devils teams through his top-notch puckmoving skills. That might not be a traditional facet of a goaltender's game, but it is just as important as his ability to stop the puck (which also isn't too shabby).

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The shutout record is much more era-dependant than the win record.

True. It's also to Marty's credit that he was able to play over 70 games every year to get the wins. Although, if he had to face over 30 shots every night for his whole career, who knows if he could have lasted. He can thank his team mates for the wins record by virtue of allowing him more than a few easy nights here and there.

 

[JimEIV]

The shutout record is much more era-dependant than the win record.

And during that "dead puck era" Roy was never much for shutouts....

The two years Roy had more shutouts happen to be the same two years he finished a head of Brodeur in Vezina voting.

And this is on a Colorado Team with a Norris Trophy winner - New Jersey had No Norris to that point -- A Hart Trophy winner New Jersey never had a Hart Trophy winner....Compare

EDIT: Sorry it was three times

1993–94 7
1994–95 1
1995–96 1
1995–96 1
1996–97 7
1997–98 4
1998–99 5
1999–00 2
2000–01 4
2001–02 9
2002–03 5


Broduer during the same time

1993-94 3 *Rookie season
1994-95 3
1995-96 6
1996-97 10
1997-98 10
1998-99 4
1999-00 6
2000-01 9
2001-02 4
2002-03 9

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Growing up in Upstate NY, I've watched most of the Sabres games since I was a kid, and I would rate Hasek a step above Brodeur. On the other hand, I would not say that Brodeur or Roy was better than than the other.

And I would say that on the same argument, Brodeur is also underrated by the people who look at the numbers rather than his play. It's not just his ability to stop the puck. People see that he faced lower shot totals and take away "points" from him, but often fail to realize that his puck-handling ability prevents a lot of time spent in the defensive zone, and probably 5-10 shots per game on average, depending on the quality of the opposition. Even with the trapezoid in place, it still applies, although to a lesser extent. I think that even a lot of Devils fans looked past this, simply because we had gotten so accustomed to it over the years. The injury and subsequent return re-opened our eyes.

Brodeur's backups over his career havent faced any significantly more shots per game than he did, which leads me to believe his puck handling ability while a significant factor, didnt prevent as as much as 5-10 shots. I believe when it was looked at the actual average was about 3 or so.

 

[seventieslord]

but often fail to realize that his puck-handling ability prevents a lot of time spent in the defensive zone, and probably 5-10 shots per game on average, depending on the quality of the opposition.

Actually, based on his backups' numbers, we have determined that Brodeur is responsible for preventing about 0.65 shots against per game. The rest is just pure NJ system at work.

 

[seventieslord]

And during that "dead puck era" Roy was never much for shutouts....

The two years Roy had more shutouts happen to be the same two years he finished a head of Brodeur in Vezina voting.

And this is on a Colorado Team with a Norris Trophy winner - New Jersey had No Norris to that point -- A Hart Trophy winner New Jersey never had a Hart Trophy winner....Compare

Edit Sorry it was three times

1993–94 7
1994–95 1
1995–96 1
1995–96 1
1996–97 7
1997–98 4
1998–99 5
1999–00 2
2000–01 4
2001–02 9
2002–03 5


Broduer during the same time

1993-94 3 *Rookie season
1994-95 3
1995-96 6
1996-97 10
1997-98 10
1998-99 4
1999-00 6
2000-01 9
2001-02 4
2002-03 9

And again, you're wasting a lot of energy on something that realy isn't that important. besides being era-dependent, shutouts are a lot easier to come by when you face less shots per game than everyone else.

Not only that, but the quality of shots he's faced has been the weakest. His Devils have given the opposition, by far, fewer pp opportunities than other teams throughout his career.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

And again, you're wasting a lot of energy on something that realy isn't that important. besides being era-dependent, shutouts are a lot easier to come by when you face less shots per game than everyone else.

Not only that, but the quality of shots he's faced has been the weakest. His Devils have given the opposition, by far, fewer pp opportunities than other teams throughout his career.

A shutout when the team is badly outplayed and the goalie makes 30+ difficult stops is a heroic effort and deserving of praise. A 5-0 SO win with 15 saves isnt any better in my mind than a 5-1 win. As with every goalie stat, you need to watch the games.

 

[Central Jersey Devil]

Brodeur literally stole the 2001 cup from his teammates and handed it to Roy. Is that what you mean?

I think Brodeur is easily overrated by people that just look purely at numbers and rarely if ever watch a game of hockey. But pretty much anyone that watched the three play and isnt a raging Devils homer will tell you Hasek and Roy were a clearly step above.

Brodeur is a clear cut hall of famer and a top 5 goalie of all time, he just happened to play in the shadow of two greater goalies. I see no shame in that. Just like there's no shame Gretzky's scoring overshadowed many other great players.

How is Brodeur CLEARLY overrated yet a top 5 all time goalie? Sorry but the gap is not that wide. He took many mediocre Devils teams constantly to the playoffs who should have finished near the bottom in the East several times, with the exception of the Stanley Cup teams.

 

[yakitate304]

Actually, based on his backups' numbers, we have determined that Brodeur is responsible for preventing about 0.65 shots against per game. The rest is just pure NJ system at work.

Brodeur's backups over his career havent faced any significantly more shots per game than he did, which leads me to believe his puck handling ability while a significant factor, didnt prevent as as much as 5-10 shots. I believe when it was looked at the actual average was about 3 or so.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

How is Brodeur CLEARLY overrated yet a top 5 all time goalie? Sorry but the gap is not that wide. He took many mediocre Devils teams constantly to the playoffs who should have finished near the bottom in the East several times, with the exception of the Stanley Cup teams.

Which seasons are you referring to?

 

[seventieslord]

Thanks for the correction.

No problem. There can be other factors at work too, like the backups facing weaker teams which may account for 1-2 more shots per game in the aggregate. I'd say the true difference, all things being equal, would be 1-2 shots in total.

 

[JimEIV]

And again, you're wasting a lot of energy on something that realy isn't that important. besides being era-dependent, shutouts are a lot easier to come by when you face less shots per game than everyone else.

Not only that, but the quality of shots he's faced has been the weakest. His Devils have given the opposition, by far, fewer pp opportunities than other teams throughout his career.

The shot differential is not that great considering there is a cross era variable.

Brodeur career 25 shots per game/981 games -- 24574 shots

Roy career 27.5 shot per game/1029 games -- 28357 Shots

So you are claiming the 2.5 shots per game equate to 34 more shutouts in 48 less games?

 

[Central Jersey Devil]

Which seasons are you referring to?

About 80% of the seasons other than 2000, 2001, and 2003. That's not too shabby.

 

[overpass]

How is Brodeur CLEARLY overrated yet a top 5 all time goalie? Sorry but the gap is not that wide. He took many mediocre Devils teams constantly to the playoffs who should have finished near the bottom in the East several times, with the exception of the Stanley Cup teams.

Really? Near the bottom in the East several times? Why do you have to beat up your team to promote Brodeur? I think Brodeur's been a good goalie, but New Jersey has been a good to excellent team the whole time he's been there.

If you replaced Brodeur on those teams with Olaf Kolzig, for example, I don't think the Devils ever come close to missing the playoffs, let alone near the bottom in the East.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

No problem. There can be other factors at work too, like the backups facing weaker teams which may account for 1-2 more shots per game in the aggregate. I'd say the true difference, all things being equal, would be 1-2 shots in total.

His puckhandling probably prevented alot of penalties against. I think thats the biggest effect rather than shots on goal.

Shorthanded shots on goal are generally going to be higher quality even though there are less of them. Thats one credit I do give Brodeur.

 

[haakon84]

Really? Near the bottom in the East several times? Why do you have to beat up your team to promote Brodeur? I think Brodeur's been a good goalie, but New Jersey has been a good to excellent team the whole time he's been there.

If you replaced Brodeur on those teams with Olaf Kolzig, for example, I don't think the Devils ever come close to missing the playoffs, let alone near the bottom in the East.

Just last year the Devils were an average to good team. A fringe playoff team without Brodeur in net. They scored 206 goals, which is fewer goal support than Hasek ever received. They scored a goal or less for 28 of Brodeur's starts and he was 41-6-2 when his team scored 2 goals or more.

 

[Central Jersey Devil]

Really? Near the bottom in the East several times? Why do you have to beat up your team to promote Brodeur? I think Brodeur's been a good goalie, but New Jersey has been a good to excellent team the whole time he's been there.

If you replaced Brodeur on those teams with Olaf Kolzig, for example, I don't think the Devils ever come close to missing the playoffs, let alone near the bottom in the East.

And I disagree. That's all. I'm giving my honest opinion. I even admitted in my first post that Hasek was superior, I"m not of the "oh Marty Brodeur is like totally the best ever yo lolz" like some fanboys on the Devils board. Sheesh.

 

[JimEIV]

Really? Near the bottom in the East several times? Why do you have to beat up your team to promote Brodeur? I think Brodeur's been a good goalie, but New Jersey has been a good to excellent team the whole time he's been there.

Agreed...New Jersey has been a winning team Every year Brodeur has been there. In fact, the win over Philly yesterday marked the 17th straight season that NJ has been over .500 for the year...During that time they missed the playoffs once and they missed with a very good record (for missing the playoffs 82 37 33 12 0 0 86 0.524) ...

That being said I don't understand why Brodeur's accomplishment are consistantly diminished because of the team he plays on.

 

[MXD]

Brodeur, 7th? Roughly where I had him.

He's below the Big-5 (Hall, Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuck). I tend to see Dryden as better than Brodeur. I suppose there could be good arguments that Bill Durnan but I don't agree (anymore) with them.

 

[finchster]

The shot differential is not that great considering there is a cross era variable.

Brodeur career 25 shots per game/981 games -- 24574 shots

Roy career 27.5 shot per game/1029 games -- 28357 Shots

So you are claiming the 2.5 shots per game equate to 34 more shutouts in 48 less games?

Just for your information that 2.5 shots a game is the difference this year between the least amount of shots allowed and being a middle of the pack team. While it sounds small it is a major difference over the course of the season

 

[Central Jersey Devil]

Agreed...<b>New Jersey has been a winning team Every year Brodeur has been there.</b> In fact, the win over Philly yesterday marked the 17th straight season that NJ has been over .500 for the year...During that time they missed the playoffs once and they missed with a very good record (for missing the playoffs 82 37 33 12 0 0 86 0.524) ...



That being said I don't understand why Brodeur's accomplishment are consistantly diminished because of the team he plays on.

I rest my case, thanks Jim. BTW, do you still think Brent Sutter is the worst coach the Devils have ever had lol!