Martin Brodeur....Overrated?

[MXD]

HeyJIMEiv..

We don't think Brodeur sucks. We only see him ranking somewhere between 5 and 10 all-time for goalies, and somewhere ranging from 30 to 60 in all-time players...

Most people saw lots of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur (... and Belfour as well, actually). Which is more than enough to judge in which order to rank them.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

About 80% of the seasons other than 2000, 2001, and 2003. That's not too shabby.

From 1993-94 until 2003-04, the Devils annually had one of the best shot differentials in the league. As an example, from 1997-98 until the lockout, they placed 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 1st.

It seems that those were some pretty strong teams, Brodeur or not.

 

[JimEIV]

Just for your information that 2.5 shots a game is the difference this year between the least amount of shots allowed and being a middle of the pack team. While it sounds small it is a major difference over the course of the season

See here is where the arguements get realllllllly bizarre for me.

The post above has Dryden over Brodeur....No mention of team he played on there.

And this post...2.5 shots against --- but not we don't want to account for the high flying 80's that Roy played in. These arguements are often ones of convience based on personal likes and dislikes that consistantly contradict themselves.

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

Actually, based on his backups' numbers, we have determined that Brodeur is responsible for preventing about 0.65 shots against per game. The rest is just pure NJ system at work.

Terrible argument the Devils backup plays 10 games a year against the weakest teams in the league. Clemmensens first stint with NJ hed be lucky to see 25 shots a game. You act like all of your opinions (Roy>Brodeur) are proven facts. Im not arguing one way or another, I think ranking the greats is stupid. I just like to appreciate them

 

[JimEIV]

HeyJIMEiv..

We don't think Brodeur sucks. We only see him ranking somewhere between 5 and 10 all-time for goalies, and somewhere ranging from 30 to 60 in all-time players...

Most people saw lots of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur (... and Belfour as well, actually). Which is more than enough to judge in which order to rank them.

I'm 38 going on 39 this year......I've seen all of the players mentioned ENTIRE career. And I lived in Boston While Roy was in Montreal and Hasek was in Buffalo so I saw both of them frequently.

 

[haakon84]

From 1993-94 until 2003-04, the Devils annually had one of the best shot differentials in the league. As an example, from 1997-98 until the lockout, they placed 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 1st.

It seems that those were some pretty strong teams, Brodeur or not.

And he's played some of his best hockey after '04.

But that still doesnt explain how that diminishes Brodeur's great accomplishments with that team. He put up some monster seasons during that era. 1996-1997 and 1997-1998 come to mind.

What I don't get you can say Brodeur's three best seasons have come when the Devils have been at their weakest and he has faced 2000+ shots. It's not like he hasn't performed at an elite level with different workloads.

Look at Hasek's season for the stacked Red Wings, he put up very Brodeur like numbers when he faced a similar workload.

 

[overpass]

And I disagree. That's all. I'm giving my honest opinion. I even admitted in my first post that Hasek was superior, I"m not of the "oh Marty Brodeur is like totally the best ever yo lolz" like some fanboys on the Devils board. Sheesh.

Fair enough. I think my bigger disagreement might be the idea that any goalie or player takes his team from well out of the playoffs to a Cup contender. I think about 5-10 players in history might be able to do that, and I don't think Brodeur's among that group.

Hasek would be the only goalie who I might put in there. He made the playoffs several times and almost won a Cup with a weak supporting cast, but the Sabres were never a consistent Cup contender (and Cup winnner) in the way that the Devils were.

 

[seventieslord]

The shot differential is not that great considering there is a cross era variable.

Brodeur career 25 shots per game/981 games -- 24574 shots

Roy career 27.5 shot per game/1029 games -- 28357 Shots

So you are claiming the 2.5 shots per game equate to 34 more shutouts in 48 less games?

Are you being serious? The shots per game have an impact, but it is minor compared to the imapact of playing 8 high-scoring seasons before Brodeur's career began.

 

[BM67]

A couple of things:

1) Marty has faced about 4.3 fewer shots per 60 minutes than Weekes/Clemmensen have this year, so that 0.65 shot difference is going to take a big jump.

2) While Brodeur's GAA and shutouts have been impacted hugely by his teams defense and the "dead puck era", his wins have not been. The team wins based on the overall quality of the team, of which Brodeur is a huge part, not by their defense alone. You get a win for both a 2-1 and a 6-4 game.

 

[JimEIV]

Are you being serious? The shots per game have an impact, but it is minor compared to the imapact of playing 8 high-scoring seasons before Brodeur's career began.

He played in the "High Flying 1980's" but he has only faced 2.5 more shots per game?

Something seems off there to me?

 

[seventieslord]

See here is where the arguements get realllllllly bizarre for me.

The post above has Dryden over Brodeur....No mention of team he played on there.

And this post...2.5 shots against --- but not we don't want to account for the high flying 80's that Roy played in. These arguements are often ones of convience based on personal likes and dislikes that consistantly contradict themselves.

The thing is, save percentage figures show that Dryden clearly wasn't just hiding behind a strong team. Those habs actually allowed only one shot per game less than the league average in the playoffs.

Terrible argument the Devils backup plays 10 games a year against the weakest teams in the league. Clemmensens first stint with NJ hed be lucky to see 25 shots a game. You act like all of your opinions (Roy>Brodeur) are proven facts. Im not arguing one way or another, I think ranking the greats is stupid. I just like to appreciate them

Well, I think ranking the greats is not stupid. And that's not just my opinion, sir. it's a fact. So take that.

And if you think it's all because the backups play the worst teams and brodeur plays the OMGZZ SUPER STARZ TEEMS!!!1111!!!! then let's look at this season where Clemmensen actually played all kinds of teams just like Brodeur has.

Brodeur: 25.0 shots/60 min
Clemmensen: 28.0 shots/60 min

edit: screwed up the numbers.

 

[finchster]

He played in the "High Flying 1980's" but he has only faced 2.5 more shots per game?

Something seems off there to me?

Not like all the games in the 80's had 50 shots to 50 shots a game, the high scoring 80's had more to do with the best crop of forward talent the NHL had seen ever. A good save% in the 80's was probably in the 0.900 at best. Smaller goalie gear as well

 

[seventieslord]

A couple of things:

1) Marty has faced about 4.3 fewer shots per 60 minutes than Weekes/Clemmensen have this year, so that 0.65 shot difference is going to take a big jump.

Where did you get that number from?

He played in the "High Flying 1980's" but he has only faced 2.5 more shots per game?

Something seems off there to me?

have save percentages been uniform league-wide over the past 23 years?

Exactly...

Get it?

 

[JimEIV]

The thing is, save percentage figures show that Dryden clearly wasn't just hiding behind a strong team. Those habs actually allowed only one shot per game less than the league average in the playoffs.

I don't know; The Florida Panthers must have the greatest goaltenders ever....or this must be the result of the superiorty of the Florida Pathers team???

Roberto Luongo
2000-01 FLA 47 41 2628 12 24 7 0 6 107 2.44 1333 1226 .920 5
2001-02 FLA 58 56 3030 16 33 4 0 4 140 2.77 1653 1513 .915 4
2002-03 FLA 65 61 3627 20 34 7 0 7 164 2.71 2011 1847 .918 6
2003-04 FLA 72 72 4252 25 33 14 0 7 172 2.43 2475 2303 .931 7

Craig Anderson
2006-07 FLA 5 3 217 1 1 0 1 0 8 2.21 116 108 .931 0
2007-08 FLA 17 13 935 8 6 0 1 0 35 2.25 535 500 .935 2
2008-09 FLA 27 23 1397 12 6 0 5 0 64 2.75 836 772 .923 3

Tomas Vokoun
2007-08 FLA 69 69 4031 30 29 0 8 5 180 2.68 2213 2033 .919 4
2008-09 FLA 44 40 2418 20 17 0 3 8 97 2.41 1335 1238 .927 6

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

The thing is, save percentage figures show that Dryden clearly wasn't just hiding behind a strong team. Those habs actually allowed only one shot per game less than the league average in the playoffs.



Well, I think ranking the greats is not stupid. And that's not just my opinion, sir. it's a fact. So take that.

And if you think it's all because the backups play the worst teams and brodeur plays the OMGZZ SUPER STARZ TEEMS!!!1111!!!! then let's look at this season where Clemmensen actually played all kinds of teams just like Brodeur has.

Brodeur: 25.0 shots/60 min
Clemmensen: 26.5 shots/60 min

Funny, didn't I just say a couple of posts ago that I thought the difference between Brodeur and an average goalie would be 1-2 shots per game?

Thats great and all, but theres a little thing called a trapezoid. Forget about that? Like I said, Clemmensen played ****** teams in his first stint in Jersey and hed be lucky to face 25 shots a game. Thats the way it was for all of Brodeurs backups in the late 90s/early 00s.

I dont think having your own opinion of the greats is stupid, but trying to rank them like its an end all be all definitive fact most definitely is.

EDIT: And now I see your edit. I think its easy to see the .65 shots/game number is completely useless. The difference is 3 shots per game right now and thats with a trapezoid. I think you already pretty much proved my point. That .65 number seems like a dependable number that is the product of alot of research done by the people here in the HOH section, but it means nothing. That is why I cant take this section very seriously and actually believe that you can come up with a definitive list of ranking the greatest players ever.

 

[DevFan-RU-]

It seems the biggest problem in calling any player the 'best ever' is simply perception and the sentimentality of the time.

For many people, to say Brodeur is better the Roy is an affront to those sentiments and those people alter their perceptions accordingly.

If we can't agree on a rule of measure via statistics, and all we have to go on is 'what we saw' when we watched them play, then judging a players overall status in history is flawed. Just like how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the greatness of a goaltender's career.

Furthermore, we talk about Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur... yet many of us have no memory of Sawchuck, Bernie Parent, or others. This lack of firsthand knowledge also muddles up the field.

Watch, in about a decade, people will be arguing over the same things, maybe surrounding a new goalie bucking for the title. And all the older people will talk about how Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur were so great, and the younger people will point to their records and argue.

 

[haakon84]

The thing is, save percentage figures show that Dryden clearly wasn't just hiding behind a strong team. Those habs actually allowed only one shot per game less than the league average in the playoffs.



Well, I think ranking the greats is not stupid. And that's not just my opinion, sir. it's a fact. So take that.

And if you think it's all because the backups play the worst teams and brodeur plays the OMGZZ SUPER STARZ TEEMS!!!1111!!!! then let's look at this season where Clemmensen actually played all kinds of teams just like Brodeur has.

Brodeur: 25.0 shots/60 min
Clemmensen: 28.0 shots/60 min

edit: screwed up the numbers.

Let's ignore this years Devils is on pace to score 50 more goals than last year's. If you actually watched the games, this team is on a different level than last years.

 

[seventieslord]

Thats great and all, but theres a little thing called a trapezoid. Forget about that? Like I said, Clemmensen played ****** teams in his first stint in Jersey and hed be lucky to face 25 shots a game. Thats the way it was for all of Brodeurs backups in the late 90s/early 00s.

I dont think having your own opinion of the greats is stupid, but trying to rank them like its an end all be all definitive fact most definitely is.

EDIT: And now I see your edit. I think its easy to see the .65 shots/game number is completely useless. The difference is 3 shots per game right now and thats with a trapezoid. I think you already pretty much proved my point. That .65 number seems like a dependable number that is the product of alot of research done by the people here in the HOH section, but it means nothing. That is why I cant take this section very seriously and actually believe that you can come up with a definitive list of ranking the greatest players ever.

I never said one was significant and one was. 1-2 shots is significant. The thing with Brodeur lovers is they like to say that he prevents 5-10 shots a game and that's why his sv% is never as good as the other great goalies.

But anyway, OK, don't take this section seriously. See you later!

 

[seventieslord]

Let's ignore this years Devils is on pace to score 50 more goals than last year's. If you actually watched the games, this team is on a different level than last years.

and that has what to do with their shots against and how it differs between their goalies?

 

[seventieslord]

I don't know; The Florida Panthers must have the greatest goaltenders ever....or this must be the result of the superiorty of the Florida Pathers team???

Roberto Luongo
2000-01 FLA 47 41 2628 12 24 7 0 6 107 2.44 1333 1226 .920 5
2001-02 FLA 58 56 3030 16 33 4 0 4 140 2.77 1653 1513 .915 4
2002-03 FLA 65 61 3627 20 34 7 0 7 164 2.71 2011 1847 .918 6
2003-04 FLA 72 72 4252 25 33 14 0 7 172 2.43 2475 2303 .931 7

Craig Anderson
2006-07 FLA 5 3 217 1 1 0 1 0 8 2.21 116 108 .931 0
2007-08 FLA 17 13 935 8 6 0 1 0 35 2.25 535 500 .935 2
2008-09 FLA 27 23 1397 12 6 0 5 0 64 2.75 836 772 .923 3

Tomas Vokoun
2007-08 FLA 69 69 4031 30 29 0 8 5 180 2.68 2213 2033 .919 4
2008-09 FLA 44 40 2418 20 17 0 3 8 97 2.41 1335 1238 .927 6

You'll have to excuse me for not understanding what your point is.

I know Vokoun and Luongo are excellent goalies. And why are you showing me what Craig Anderson did in 5 and 17-game stints?

 

[overpass]

And if you think it's all because the backups play the worst teams and brodeur plays the OMGZZ SUPER STARZ TEEMS!!!1111!!!! then let's look at this season where Clemmensen actually played all kinds of teams just like Brodeur has.

Brodeur: 25.0 shots/60 min
Clemmensen: 28.0 shots/60 min

While Clemmensen had the easier matchups as a backup in previous seasons, Brodeur's had the easier matchups this year. 8 of his 13 games have been at home, and I'd argue that 9 of the 13 have been against below-average teams (Washington and Philadelphia are the exceptions.)

In any case, 13 games isn't much to base an argument on. I'd rather wait until the end of the year to run the numbers, when these factors should wash out. IMO, it would be a mistake to take the 3 shots prevented per game as a meaningful number at this point.

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

I never said one was significant and one was. 1-2 shots is significant. The thing with Brodeur lovers is they like to say that he prevents 5-10 shots a game and that's why his sv% is never as good as the other great goalies.

But anyway, OK, don't take this section seriously. See you later!

Well I think it was proven that that .65 stat is worthless, and your estimate of 1-2 per game is wrong. Care to argue?

Also note that I never claimed that he prevents 5-10 shots/game. However, taking into account the hes prevented 3 shots per game this year with the trapezoid, I wouldnt be surprised if he did prevent 5-10 before the trapezoid was instituted, due to both his puck handling and rebound control. Its not something I care to try to put an exact number on though, because its not something that can be done.

 

[JimEIV]

You'll have to excuse me for not understanding what your point is.

I know Vokoun and Luongo are excellent goalies. And why are you showing me what Craig Anderson did in 5 and 17-game stints?

Every goalie that has played in FLorida over the last 7 or 8 years has a very high save percentage....In the Case of Luongo, Anderson, Vokoun and Jamie McLennan, who now have histories with other teams -- Each has achieved their highest Save% of there entire career while playing for this Non-playoff team....Why?

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

Every goalie that has played in FLorida over the last 7 or 8 years has a very high save percentage....In the Case of Luongo, Anderson, Vokoun and Jamie McLennan, who now have histories with other teams -- Each has achieved their highest Save% of there entire career while playing for this Non-playoff team....Why?

That's not true

While Vokoun, Anderson, and Luongo have been good, the others (Shields, Hurme, McLennan, Belfour, and Auld) have not.

 

[JimEIV]

That's not true

While Vokoun, Anderson, and Luongo have been good, the others (Shields, Hurme, McLennan, Belfour, and Auld) have not.

Edit I missed the .910 McLennan had in Galgary

Hurme tied his .907

Let me rephrase then:

So 4 of 8 goalies since 2000 had the Best save% of their career in Florida....Luongo goes to a better overall team and his Save% drops and Vokoun goes to a worse team and his save% rises?
The worst teams Brodeur played for produced his Best overall Save%???

And Why do Nabakov and Kiprusoff who both play for very good teams, usually play 70+ games, and lead the league in wins typically have lower Save% than league average????



Why?