Marners start..

[Menzinger]

Hes being paid like a top 5 winger in the league and so the expectations are that at minimum he be among the top players every time hes on the ice.

You dont get to play hardball in negotiations like he did, get the big payday and then dump excuses. Hes capable of being better than this - needs to start doing it.

 

[Havoc]

I don’t think Kapanen’s free of blame at all, but at the end of the day if Marner can’t make it work with a scrub player why are we paying him like he’s a franchise player?

This kid came into the NHL on the Bozak JVR line. Then gets upgraded to an $11 million center and the first sign he has to carry someone weaker offensively we’re going to blame the guy who makes 3x less money?

Marner’s changed the conversation for himself in this city. From now on money is always going to be front and centre.

Kapanen is on a 36 point pace for over half a season now. Yes we can easily blame him right now for wreaking havoc on JT and Marner's game. He's not 100% the reason but he's a significant factor. I don't know why that's even a debate. You guys watch the same games I do. I'm not saying Kapanen is a 30 point player, I'm very high on Kapanen and want him here long term... I'm just saying that's who he is right now. He's currently one of our least impactful players and it's been this way for a long time now.

How much Marner is paid has nothing to do with it. I don't like his salary either.

I spent a whole summer defending Nylander when he had to play with black holes in Marleau and Brown.

Pretty pathetic watching people not give Marner the same benefit of the doubt when he has a 36 point pace left wing ruining the line and making mediocre decisions.

Marner can still put up 82 points if you leave Kapanen there all season so I'm not sure what you mean with your second sentence. It's not his job to baby sit Kapanen. Hyman was able to tag along and put up 50 points while Marner had a career year. If Kapanen can't do the same while Marner goes point per game that says more about Kapanen and not Marner. Marner has played like ass yet has 6 points in 6 games.

Whether we like him or not, putting up points is what he does. You'd (not "you"- in general) have to really be biased against him to suggest he's going to not put up 82+ after we watched this guy lead the team in points three seasons in a row.

Is he worth his salary? Probably not. Definitely a mil overpaid. But this thread is a critical analysis about his start and I'm seeing some very incorrect and unfair conclusions being made about his skillset and impact.

 

[Stephen]

Kapanen is on a 36 point pace for over half a season now. Yes we can easily blame him right now for wreaking havoc on JT and Marner's game. He's not 100% the reason but he's a significant factor. I don't know why that's even a debate. You guys watch the same games I do. I'm not saying Kapanen is a 30 point player, I'm very high on Kapanen and want him here long term... I'm just saying that's who he is right now. He's currently one of our least impactful players and it's been this way for a long time now.

How much Marner is paid has nothing to do with it. I don't like his salary either.

I spent a whole summer defending Nylander when he had to play with black holes in Marleau and Brown.

Pretty pathetic watching people not give Marner the same benefit of the doubt when he has a 36 point pace left wing ruining the line and making mediocre decisions.

Marner can still put up 82 points if you leave Kapanen there all season so I'm not sure what you mean with your second sentence. It's not his job to baby sit Kapanen. Hyman was able to tag along and put up 50 points while Marner had a career year. If Kapanen can't do the same while Marner goes point per game that says more about Kapanen and not Marner. Marner has played like ass yet has 6 points in 6 games.

Whether we like him or not, putting up points is what he does. You'd (not "you"- in general) have to really be biased against him to suggest he's going to not put up 82+ after we watched this guy lead the team in points three seasons in a row.

Is he worth his salary? Probably not. Definitely a mil overpaid. But this thread is a critical analysis about his start and I'm seeing some very incorrect and unfair conclusions being made about his skillset and impact.

Actually, I think production is the least of our concerns with Marner. He has a special ability to show up all over the scoresheet even when he isn't playing well.

But the not playing well part is the problem. When he struggles, he over complicates things, he over finesses every play, he's extremely careless with the puck, looks slow, lacks explosiveness, gets outmuscled easily, is isolated easily, has zero physical strength, does a lot of busy looking things with zero effectiveness, does a lot of crappy fly by stick checks. Basically looks like an undersized junior player. And in Year 4, and first year of his mega deal, none of these things are acceptable.

 

[axlrose87]

The good thing about marners seemingly awful contract is that a large portion of it will be paid out by July 1 of 2020.
He will become very attractive to the more cash strapped teams after that. He has burnt up a lot of good will in leafs nation. No one will be angry if he becomes a blue jacket in the off-season.

$30.3 million out of 65.3 will be paid out by July 1, 2020. That means the acquiring will only owe him $35 million for 5 seasons of play ($7 million/ season). That is very attractive to non cap teams.

 

[saffronleaf]

I personally think it's more just a slump than it is about Hyman. Kapanen not clicking with them isn't helping either.

I think both of these players will come back down to earth this year. Tavares will revert back to his 35 goal average, which will likely drop Marner to a 20 goal ppg winger.

That's what these players likely are.

All summer I heard people saying things like "Marner scores 93 pionts as a 21 year old... imagine how many points he'll be getting by 25?"

I kept thinking Marner has always looked like a ppg player to me. Nothing more.

I think this is probably right. A good number of people predicted a regression to the mean. On the other hand, Marner still has room and time to develop further. But I think that development will be in terms of rounding out his game, rather than resulting in more points.

 

[saffronleaf]

Mikko Rantanen: 5 games, 4 goals, 11 pts...6'4", 215 lbs...and about $1.7 million cheaper...but Marner is so awesome because of his primary assists, am I right?

ugh, Rantanen is so good.

 

[Drytoast]

These kids have absolutely killed my desire to watch this f***ing team.

The greed and selfishness displayed is disgusting.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Examining the success of the Leafs Top Six

I think this is a good article talking about how our top 6 has looked so far:

Matthews line: Good, but aren’t getting high danger scoring chances. Balanced by the fact that they’re better defensively than last year but if they can return to form to getting the high danger scoring chances AND continue their defensive effort, it’s going to be one of the best lines in the league.

Tavares line: The bulk of the one ice goals for and against results are just do to horrible Sh% and Sv%. That being said, there’s a noticeable lack of shots coming from the slot this year. It’s not just Hyman either, Tavares himself hasn’t been taking shots from the slot. It’s not publicly tracked but I wonder what Marner’s pass to the slot numbers are like this year.

 

[ACC1224]

These kids have absolutely killed my desire to watch this ****ing team.

The greed and selfishness displayed is disgusting.

Sucks to be you.
Hope you find happiness elesewhere. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

[Al14]

Kapanen is on a 36 point pace for over half a season now. Yes we can easily blame him right now for wreaking havoc on JT and Marner's game. He's not 100% the reason but he's a significant factor. I don't know why that's even a debate. You guys watch the same games I do. I'm not saying Kapanen is a 30 point player, I'm very high on Kapanen and want him here long term... I'm just saying that's who he is right now. He's currently one of our least impactful players and it's been this way for a long time now.

How much Marner is paid has nothing to do with it. I don't like his salary either.

I spent a whole summer defending Nylander when he had to play with black holes in Marleau and Brown.

Pretty pathetic watching people not give Marner the same benefit of the doubt when he has a 36 point pace left wing ruining the line and making mediocre decisions.

Marner can still put up 82 points if you leave Kapanen there all season so I'm not sure what you mean with your second sentence. It's not his job to baby sit Kapanen. Hyman was able to tag along and put up 50 points while Marner had a career year. If Kapanen can't do the same while Marner goes point per game that says more about Kapanen and not Marner. Marner has played like ass yet has 6 points in 6 games.

Whether we like him or not, putting up points is what he does. You'd (not "you"- in general) have to really be biased against him to suggest he's going to not put up 82+ after we watched this guy lead the team in points three seasons in a row.

Is he worth his salary? Probably not. Definitely a mil overpaid. But this thread is a critical analysis about his start and I'm seeing some very incorrect and unfair conclusions being made about his skillset and impact.

Hey, if I'm Kapanen, I'd be leaving it up to my linemates, that are making almost 3 times my salary, to make shit happen. It would be me saying show me why you two are worth 3 times more salary.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I see we're back to overpayments and anger.

Ah well, the "successful" rebuild was fun while it lasted, no?

 

[ULF_55]

No...
What do 2 even strength points matter if you've give up 10 even strength points against? Or if you've spent 65% of the time playing in your own zone?
Even strength points as a stand alone stat show absolutely nothing about how your line has played against opponents.
Even the much hated +/- is a more useful stat to show this.

+/- is all about even strength points

 

[ULF_55]

Kapanen is on a 36 point pace for over half a season now. Yes we can easily blame him right now for wreaking havoc on JT and Marner's game. He's not 100% the reason but he's a significant factor. I don't know why that's even a debate. You guys watch the same games I do. I'm not saying Kapanen is a 30 point player, I'm very high on Kapanen and want him here long term... I'm just saying that's who he is right now. He's currently one of our least impactful players and it's been this way for a long time now.

How much Marner is paid has nothing to do with it. I don't like his salary either.

I spent a whole summer defending Nylander when he had to play with black holes in Marleau and Brown.

Pretty pathetic watching people not give Marner the same benefit of the doubt when he has a 36 point pace left wing ruining the line and making mediocre decisions.

Marner can still put up 82 points if you leave Kapanen there all season so I'm not sure what you mean with your second sentence. It's not his job to baby sit Kapanen. Hyman was able to tag along and put up 50 points while Marner had a career year. If Kapanen can't do the same while Marner goes point per game that says more about Kapanen and not Marner. Marner has played like ass yet has 6 points in 6 games.

Whether we like him or not, putting up points is what he does. You'd (not "you"- in general) have to really be biased against him to suggest he's going to not put up 82+ after we watched this guy lead the team in points three seasons in a row.

Is he worth his salary? Probably not. Definitely a mil overpaid. But this thread is a critical analysis about his start and I'm seeing some very incorrect and unfair conclusions being made about his skillset and impact.

Yes, but we know marner carried Tavares to a 2 point career year!

Nylander is just a passenger.

 

[al secord]

The pressure to live up to his ridiculous contract demands seems to be getting to him. He will always put up points even as a passenger. We need more than passengers on this team to be successful.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Marner deserves to feel the pressure. He made a big power play about where he ranks in the team hierarchy in contract negotiations and came to camp unprepared to justify his claims. Why is this guy even coming into his fourth NHL season looking like he hasn't worked out a day since his rookie year? Might help not getting thrown around all over the ice. Also doesn't help that his on ice effectiveness has taken a nosedive as John Tavares has slumped coming out of the gate.

I'm actually curious to see what the consensus acceptable level of play will be for him from the perspective of Leafs Nation. He fit the role of the prodigy well on his ELC, but at nearly $11 million, it's not going to be easy for him to live up this ridiculous contract.

We have played 7% of the season. He is 1 point behind Matthews, and 1 point ahead of Willy and JT.

The sky isn't falling when one of your star players is in a slump and still producing a PPG....... Still 2nd on a team that is stacked offensively.

History would suggest this is not permanent and he will snap out of it. I mean if he doesn't, the Leafs are screwed in so many aspects.
Some "fans" cheer for us to be screwed, as long as it's the player they don't like thats screwing us.... it's very odd.
See it all the time with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner. People cheer for 1 of them to fail, very, very, odd.

 

[sparxx87]

+/- is all about even strength points

Except you still get a minus when you’re on for a SH goal. One of the many reasons it’s a flawed stat.

 

[ULF_55]

Except you still get a minus when you’re on for a SH goal. One of the many reasons it’s a flawed stat.

Yes, you should get -2 for a shortie. Being outscored while you have the extra man ... 8 times.

 

[sparxx87]

We have played 7% of the season. He is 1 point behind Matthews, and 1 point ahead of Willy and JT.

The sky isn't falling when one of your star players is in a slump and still producing a PPG....... Still 2nd on a team that is stacked offensively.

History would suggest this is not permanent and he will snap out of it. I mean if he doesn't, the Leafs are screwed in so many aspects.
Some "fans" cheer for us to be screwed, as long as it's the player they don't like thats screwing us.... it's very odd.
See it all the time with Matthews, Nylander, and Marner. People cheer for 1 of them to fail, very, very, odd.

Cheering for people to fail is an entirely different problem and one that likely reflects poorly on those individuals.

I’d like to think most care more about the team than Mitch Marner and his bank account. Many believe the team would be better served splitting 11m somewhere else. All that money for a winger on an unbalanced team seems like a poor allocation of dollars.

 

[Coatsy79]

Marner is no longer the likable Toronto born kid who exuded love of the game.

He made a business decision to stick it to his hometown team and make as much money as he can despite a hindrance to the cap, and the team's ability to sign other players. I personally can't stand to look at him, but that's just me.

Yep, I have no sympathy for him, you wanted to get paid you play to that contract no excuses

 

[Drytoast]

Sucks to be you.
Hope you find happiness elesewhere. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

lol..."sucks to be you"

You let me know how good you feel being closely invested in this selfish team come spring.

 

[ACC1224]

lol..."sucks to be you"

You let me know how good you feel being closely invested in this selfish team come spring.

I feel great, lifes good.

 

[Matthews34]

Not worth 10.893m per yet, not even a little bit.

He never was!! Dubas is going to regret that contract.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Cheering for people to fail is an entirely different problem and one that likely reflects poorly on those individuals.

I’d like to think most care more about the team than Mitch Marner and his bank account. Many believe the team would be better served splitting 11m somewhere else. All that money for a winger on an unbalanced team seems like a poor allocation of dollars.

Was that even possible though? It's easy to say but that only leaves 2 options. Free market, or trade. You will over pay one way, and not get fair value the other way.

If you really believe 11mil is way too much, than why would any other GM give you fair value in return?

He will be pretty cheap in real dollars in 2 years. So if he must be traded, that will be the time. If you are ever going to move a huge asset like that, you want maximum return.

Also, at least for this year.... the team is top heavy, but balanced fine.

 

[nuck]

Its been 6 games Marner doesn't have 12 points! Babcocks ego! JTs baby! Time to die

 

[Drytoast]

I feel great, lifes good.

Lol.