Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[Clark4Ever]

There should be added pressure on Dubas as well since all the other RFAs are waiting on him to set the market. He cannot cave this time or it will impact the rest of the league.

 

[Notsince67]

funny thing is a couple of pages back he criticizes a guys opinion because he didnt know the facts, no one did. Then spouts this crap. That poster is a grade A Marner shill at this point

Im a fan of Marner for sure. Im not ashamed of it. He is an awsome player. Perhaps you should look at your own position that the impass is entirely his fault. My losition seems more moderate in spreading the blame against 2 parties. The problem here is that others want to stir up a fight taking sides that Dubas was infallible and Marner is just some lucky ok player who shouldnt get paid because he isnt good enough. And is greedy. I dont need to schill Marner. He will soon embarass the naysayers. I will be critical if he doesnt play up to expectations because that is his job to perform. It is Dubas' job to take care of the business aspect of hockey. This side has had a lot of bumps yet a few here refuse to acknowledge that Dubas has stumbled in a few areas. This IMO is about ego...of the very people who actually felt that his decisions at the time were right despite the objections of others on the board. Despite that, hindsight has shown them and dubas as wrong. This is silly. I watch the game to see players play hockey. I dont watch to catch a glipse of a gm in the stands. Ultimately, i will judge a gm by the players he has on the ice and as of now, one of dubas' best isnt. Why is that? For many of the reasons ive mentioned in the past that Dubas has some responsibility for and that you are on record as supporting. Who is schilling who exactly?

 

[Walshy7]

Im a fan of Marner for sure. Im not ashamed of it. He is an awsome player. Perhaps you should look at your own position that the impass is entirely his fault. My losition seems more moderate in spreading the blame against 2 parties. The problem here is that others want to stir up a fight taking sides that Dubas was infallible and Marner is just some lucky ok player who shouldnt get paid because he isnt good enough. And is greedy. I dont need to schill Marner. He will soon embarass the naysayers. I will be critical if he doesnt play up to expectations because that is his job to perform. It is Dubas' job to take care of the business aspect of hockey. This side has had a lot of bumps yet a few here refuse to acknowledge that Dubas has stumbled in a few areas. This IMO is about ego...of the very people who actually felt that his decisions at the time were right despite the objections of others on the board. Despite that, hindsight has shown them and dubas as wrong. This is silly. I watch the game to see players play hockey. I dont watch to catch a glipse of a gm in the stands. Ultimately, i will judge a gm by the players he has on the ice and as of now, one of dubas' best isnt. Why is that? For many of the reasons ive mentioned in the past that Dubas has some responsibility for and that you are on record as supporting. Who is schilling who exactly?

haha drivel. Start of saying 2 sides are to blame, proceeds to blame 1 party.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Miss training camp, miss preseason games and just jump into the season? no thanks. Look what happened to William last year. If he joins once the season starts, Dubas should take that into account and pay him quite a bit less.

Missing pre-season =/= missing 2 months of the season and then getting historically awful luck.

 

[Nineteen67]

Miss training camp, miss preseason games and just jump into the season? no thanks. Look what happened to William last year. If he joins once the season starts, Dubas should take that into account and pay him quite a bit less.

So you’re off the sit him and lose him for pennies stance?

 

[Notsince67]

haha drivel. Start of saying 2 sides are to blame, proceeds to blame 1 party.

Clearly you are incapable of dealing with the substance of the post here. Did i really need to insert my long held position that Marners ask would be a market overpay? Did i need to slam marner for feeling slighted that others on the team would get overpaid relative to the market and he was against being treated differently? Did i really need to rail against one of our best players to criticise him for not sucking it up and allowing water over the bridge for obvious Dubas mistakes which you supported. Stopping what would be a third even though the consequences of those mistakes were spelled out at the time as including an inevitable overpayment to Marner?
You are not very persuasive.

 

[Walshy7]

Clearly you are incapable of dealing with the substance of the post here. Did i really need to insert my long held position that Marners ask would be a market overpay? Did i need to slam marner for feeling slighted that others on the team would get overpaid relative to the market and he was against being treated differently? Did i really need to rail against one of our best players to criticise him for not sucking it up and allowing water over the bridge for obvious Dubas mistakes which you supported. Stopping what would be a third even though the consequences of those mistakes were spelled out at the time as including an inevitable overpayment to Marner?
You are not very persuasive.

so you are trying to say you are neutral just that criticizing one side isnt necessary?

 

[4thline]

Clearly you are incapable of dealing with the substance of the post here. Did i really need to insert my long held position that Marners ask would be a market overpay? Did i need to slam marner for feeling slighted that others on the team would get overpaid relative to the market and he was against being treated differently?

The problem is that if reports are accurate the Leafs ARE treating Marner the same way and offering a premium on his market worth, and he/his camp are rejecting that because they don't care about his market worth.

 

[ULF_55]

Yo capfriendly is showing both dermott and hyman on IR - they weren't on IR before or is it that off-season cushion being lifted?
Toronto Maple Leafs - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

something happening soon?

In one of his talks Dubas mentioned Dermott and Hyman on LTIR and insinuated (my interpretation) that could be used as the season moves along to cover off offersheets that could get inflated up to what $13mm?

Leafs would be fine even without marner.

 

[Walshy7]

In one of his talks Dubas mentioned Dermott and Hyman on LTIR and insinuated (my interpretation) that could be used as the season moves along to cover off offersheets that could get inflated up to what $13mm?

Leafs would be fine even without marner.

fine is ok, but obviously marner is a very important part of the team and we'd have a greater chance of a cup with him or the asset/s gained from trading him

 

[Notsince67]

so you are trying to say you are neutral just that criticizing one side isnt necessary?

I dont care what Marner is paid

 

[Mr Hockey]

The problem is that if reports are accurate the Leafs ARE treating Marner the same way and offering a premium on his market worth, and he/his camp are rejecting that because they don't care about his market worth.

what option would you choose if you were Marner?

1. compare to other RFA's past/present around the league
2. compare to Matthews

 

[Confucius]

So you’re off the sit him and lose him for pennies stance?

lose him for pennies? and how is "no thanks" if he misses training camp and preseason off the sit him stance?

 

[Walshy7]

what option would you choose if you were Marner?

1. compare to other RFA's past/present around the league
2. compare to Matthews

The leafs are apparently offering him in line with all the top wingers in the league in terms of %. Matthews is an elite 1C something marner will never be, so he clearly has unreasonable expectations.

 

[4thline]

what option would you choose if you were Marner?

1. compare to other RFA's past/present around the league
2. compare to Matthews

What option would you choose going into negotiations at work

1. compare yourself to the established payscale for your position
2. compare yourself to someone in a higher payscale at your company


Sure 2 is better for you, but it's not a reasonable stance.

 

[Nineteen67]

lose him for pennies? and how is "no thanks" if he misses training camp and preseason off the sit him stance?

You said you'd give a take it or leave it offer and if he didn’t accept he’d sit the year, which would undoubtedly result in him leaving. Now you’re negotiating; if he misses training camp and any games you’ll pay him less.

 

[Confucius]

what option would you choose if you were Marner?

1. compare to other RFA's past/present around the league
2. compare to Matthews

I encourage Marner to go and sign an offer sheet. Go get the best deal you can. We can then take it from there and decide what to do. Everybody is happy it isn't that hard.

 

[Nineteen67]

what option would you choose if you were Marner?

1. compare to other RFA's past/present around the league
2. compare to Matthews

Door 2 for me.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

What option would you choose going into negotiations at work

1. compare yourself to the established payscale for your position
2. compare yourself to someone in a higher payscale at your company


Sure 2 is better for you, but it's not a reasonable stance.

Problem is, I truly believe Marner's camp see him as a comparable player. They're wrong but they think it. In your analogy they would think they deserve to be at that higher pay scale in the company.

 

[Confucius]

You said you'd give a take it or leave it offer and if he didn’t accept he’d sit the year, which would undoubtedly result in him leaving. Now you’re negotiating; if he misses training camp and any games you’ll pay him less.

Where is he going? lol. If I'm offering Marner 9 million and he doesn't want it, sit what do I care, I know eventually he has to come back or just giveup on the NHL. Now if the season starts of course Id still give him 5. But why would he do that?

 

[ULF_55]

I think you need to read that again without Darren ferris glasses and Paul marner’s fargo hat on.......

This was in response to the masses thinking all 3 were going to sign July 1......

Nylander was up first.

1. Matthews signed in season.
2. marner won't talk in season.

Based on known data, which of the above was slow walking?

 

[ChuckWoods]

Im officially getting irritated at this recent RFA movement.

Im told the negotiations have gained some traction in the bridge territory which is positive. But to drag this into camp is on the player, its not on the agent.

But if Mitch misses time in camp because his agent keeps telling him he deserves more than 10m annually to play a game, then there is a significant concern to have around this team. It clearly will have an effect through out the organization.

Especially considering THIS year is a major compete year with Barrie in the fold.

If this is me, I deal him at this point or just let him rot away over seas.

Mitch wants to be here, prove it and get things done yourself. Thats how it was when I was around just not long ago, and its a shame this is the direction we are trending.

You won the life lottery, you play hockey for millions.

 

[ULF_55]

Im a fan of Marner for sure. Im not ashamed of it. He is an awsome player.

...

I'm a fan of the team first. marner is an awesome player, but is just a contract worker and is of limited value.

I'd have no problem if they traded him rather than sign him.

The only demand a fan of the team should have is it makes the team better.

 

[Notsince67]

The problem is that if reports are accurate the Leafs ARE treating Marner the same way and offering a premium on his market worth, and he/his camp are rejecting that because they don't care about his market worth.

Might be true but hard to know. The assumptions made at various terms are a bit murky. Here is an example.
Evolving wild had every term year projected for marner and Matthews. Matthews was projected at 9.9 x 5 years. They put a lot of analysis into their projections yet they dont look like the numbers being thown around here or in the media. The truth is that there really isnt a precise formula of evaluating things like that and if there is the numbers would seem absurd at some data points. EVOLVING Wilds 1 year projection for Marner for example is 8.965MM for example yet 5 year moves down to 8.4mm. Now before everyone slams Evolving Wild, i will come out firmly in support of their competence. They dont sell wolf tickets and have said that after all the holdouts sign, they will do a post model validation. They seem to have a very diciplined approach to stats and i am a fan as i am with guys like Turturo. They know their shit yet the absurdity of rules can sometimes give absurd results. These guys dont make absurd commentary. They are not ashamed of their approach because it is sound and they move the needle in analytics. Other analytic guys are media whores.
When it is all said Nd done, the right number will convalesce to a consensus view on the facts, not an arbitrary declaration. Because contracts have an element of foresightedness, they are as much a fuction of art as science.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don’t believe they are legit contender this year.

They are, 100% without a doubt, one of the best contenders this year. This is probably the best Leaf team 99% of us have ever seen.

Maybe they are, but there are still a lot of questions on the roster.

Every single team in the league has question marks. All cup winners have had question marks going into that season; many of them more than them.

This team is extremely deep, and has one of the best top-ends of their roster in the league.

The problem with not sticking to a proper rebuild is that teams like Ottawa, Buffalo and Montreal might catch up to them.

The problem with waiting in a rebuild forever and never making significant moves to improve your team is that you usually don't get to the level they are at for even one year.

The chance that any of Ottawa, Buffalo or Montreal will "catch up" to them anytime soon without significant additions to their roster is really, really low.