Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[Notsince67]

I'm a fan of the team first. marner is an awesome player, but is just a contract worker and is of limited value.

I'd have no problem if they traded him rather than sign him.

The only demand a fan of the team should have is it makes the team better.

That is part of the business but such an action should be made only if it doesnt factor in disagreements in a process spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement. Gripes outside of the locker room are a bit petty. If it makes sense from a team perspective to trade him, so be it. If a person thinks tkachuk is better, they will have to take the responsibility of that decision if and when it is proven to be untrue...for example.

 

[ULF_55]

Im officially getting irritated at this recent RFA movement.

Im told the negotiations have gained some tracking in the bridge territory which is positive. But to drag this into camp is on the player, its not on the agent.

But it Mitch misses time in camp because his agent keeps telling him he deserves more than 10m annually to play a game, then there is a significant concern to have around this team. It clearly will have an effect through out the organization.

Especially considering THIS year is a major compete year with Barrie in the fold.

If this is me, I deal him at this point or just let him rot away over seas.

Mitch wants to be here, prove it and get things done yourself. Thats how it was when I was around just not long ago, and its a shame this is the direction we are trending.

You won the life lottery, you play hockey for millions.

Everyone knows Dubas is generous with his best players.

I doubt very much anyone is low balling here.

We'll just have to wait and see, at least not as bad as Mark Gandler and Yashin ... yet.

 

[ULF_55]

That is part of the business but such an action should be made only if it doesnt factor in disagreements in a process spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement. Gripes outside of the locker room are a bit petty. If it makes sense from a team perspective to trade him, so be it. If a person thinks tkachuk is better, they will have to take the responsibility of that decision if and when it is proven to be untrue...for example.

They don't have to get a better player to make the team better though.

All they have to do is improve in areas of greater need than just scoring more points.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Im told the negotiations have gained some traction in the bridge territory which is positive.

Do you mean internally Chuck or a media source "getting a sense"?

 

[4thline]

@ChuckWoods

For the most part I agree, but there is one area that I would a have a decent amount more sympathy for him, and that's if the offer sheet rumours were true and somewhere in the 12 x 7 range. It would lend credence to his ask, and at his age the reality of "the place you want to work" and "place that will pay you the most" not being the same might be a harsh and frustrating lesson.

At a certain point I think all reasonable valuable employees come to understand that they could make more money elsewhere. Might require living where they don't want to, hours they don't want, a worse work environment, a company they don't believe in, more responsibility, etc. We all know the tradeoffs, and that we all have to make those choices. With that knowledge it becomes really easy to look at someone that refuses to accept the tradeoffs and wants to have have their cake and eat it too as spoiled, immature, entitled... but then we remember we're talking about a 21 year old that's led a pretty charmed life, and this might be the 1st time they're facing it.

 

[ottawa]

@ChuckWoods

For the most part I agree, but there is one area that I would a have a decent amount more sympathy for him, and that's if the offer sheet rumours were true and somewhere in the 12 x 7 range. It would lend credence to his ask, and at his age the reality of "the place you want to work" and "place that will pay you the most" not being the same might be a harsh and frustrating lesson.

At a certain point I think all reasonable valuable employees come to understand that they could make more money elsewhere. Might require living where they don't want to, hours they don't want, a worse work environment, a company they don't believe in, more responsibility, etc. We all know the tradeoffs, and that we all have to make those choices. With that knowledge it becomes really easy to look at someone that refuses to accept the tradeoffs and wants to have have their cake and eat it too as spoiled, immature, entitled... but then we remember we're talking about a 21 year old that's led a pretty charmed life, and this might be the 1st time they're facing it.

I agree with everything you said, and as an employee you'd be incredibly stupid in every sense of the way to not maximize your earnings. f*** the cup. At the end of the day money supports your lifestyle, not the 25k ring you get, and if you only get 12-14 prime earning years then take your employer to the cleaner all day everyday, especially when you're a player that is extremely valuable to your team because that gives you bargaining power.

None of us would take a 10% pay cut for our employers over a 40 year career, why should a hockey player do that over a 15-20 year career. There's no such thing as too much money, so go and earn it all.

 

[Legion34]

Everyone knows Dubas is generous with his best players.

I doubt very much anyone is low balling here.

We'll just have to wait and see, at least not as bad as Mark Gandler and Yashin ... yet.

Yep. That’s how i see it. He gets comparables and then gives within but in the higher ends of the ranges.

No discounts. But definitely within reason. I hope marner doesn’t break the trend

 

[ULF_55]

I agree with everything you said, and as an employee you'd be incredibly stupid in every sense of the way to not maximize your earnings. **** the cup. At the end of the day money supports your lifestyle, not the 25k ring you get, and if you only get 12-14 prime earning years then take your employer to the cleaner all day everyday, especially when you're a player that is extremely valuable to your team.

There is usually a trade off. Kids who never see their parents, kids who never have a parent at a special event, kids who roll off the track because their parents are chasing the dollar and believe money is more important than family.

I have given up money for family, but I have seen and have worked with others who believe power and money are more important than anything else. Money is more important than everything, health, family, environment and society in general. When we had our twins my employer questioned why I didn't want to work overtime and if I wasn't committed to the company ... I didn't work overtime I went home and took care of my family.

But if we're being realistic here, marner is set for life as soon as he signs his next contract unless he's a complete moron.

 

[pspot]

They should have traded nylander
He sat out and got what he wanted (even though it's looking team friendly now)
Then they overpaid matthews on a shorter term
Now you are trying to make a statement/stance on arguably your best player

It's all ass backwards

 

[ULF_55]

They should have traded nylander
He sat out and got what he wanted (even though it's looking team friendly now)
Then they overpaid matthews on a shorter term
Now you are trying to make a statement/stance on arguably your best player

It's all ass backwards

I don't believe they are making a statement or taking a stance, they just haven't agreed on a contract.

If you believe they have made 2 mistakes on those contracts then they have to stop making those mistakes. Right?

 

[4thline]

I agree with everything you said, and as an employee you'd be incredibly stupid in every sense of the way to not maximize your earnings. **** the cup. At the end of the day money supports your lifestyle, not the 25k ring you get, and if you only get 12-14 prime earning years then take your employer to the cleaner all day everyday, especially when you're a player that is extremely valuable to your team because that gives you bargaining power.

None of us would take a 10% pay cut for our employers over a 40 year career, why should a hockey player do that over a 15-20 year career. There's no such thing as too much money, so go and earn it all.

Based on this reply I'm not sure if you understood the actual point I was making.
I'll take your last two lines and use myself and compare it to Marner.

I make a pretty good living. Own a house, support my wife as she starts a home business etc. I love my job, love my company. If I was willing I could quite literally double my salary (actually more than) by taking up old classmates on opportunities in the City. But to do so I'd have to leave the job that I love at the company I believe in, do something I like less, and either commute 1.5 hours or move to the city. I had a choice, and I made it. What I didn't do was go to my company and demand that they match the city offer. It would be childish and unreasonable, it was a tradeoff that I was faced with, I wasn't entitled for them to give me both the job/lifestyle I wanted at the money the city could yield.

It's quite possible that Marner is faced with that same choice. A team willing to give him the money he wants, but to get it he has to give up the Maple Leaf dream, give up the endorsements, give up being on contender. But that's his choice, it's not on the Leafs to let him have his cake and eat it too. I am sympathetic that he's only 21 and learning this hard lesson directly in the public eye, but he needs to learn it quick and make his choice.

 

[kb]

I don't believe they are making a statement or taking a stance, they just haven't agreed on a contract.

If you believe they have made 2 mistakes on those contracts then they have to stop making those mistakes. Right?

Nope, that's not how it works. You are supposed pray for a huge overpay and blame Dubas. Even though the first 2 were within the range of historical comparables, one of which was by far your best player and scoring goals at a league leading pace over his ELC.

 

[Nineteen67]

They are, 100% without a doubt, one of the best contenders this year. This is probably the best Leaf team 99% of us have ever seen.


Every single team in the league has question marks. All cup winners have had question marks going into that season; many of them more than them.

This team is extremely deep, and has one of the best top-ends of their roster in the league.


The problem with waiting in a rebuild forever and never making significant moves to improve your team is that you usually don't get to the level they are at for even one year.

The chance that any of Ottawa, Buffalo or Montreal will "catch up" to them anytime soon without significant additions to their roster is really, really low.

Goaltending, both starting and backup, is still extremely suspect.
Coaching is questionable too.

Can they beat teams with a solid defensive game plan? Last year’s record against the top defending teams was atrocious. They had a great start and that saved them record wise, but the reality was they were around the 15 th best team in the NHL from Dec 1st.

I still think they’re a year, maybe two, away from being legit Stanley Cup contenders.

I give Dubas credit for making changes - which a lot of fans wearing blue and white goggles didn’t think was necessary - maybe it’ll work. I’m pretty sure we’ll have really good idea by Christmas.

Anyway, winning a Cup is irrelevant to me as I’ll be watching regardless.

 

[Mckay]

Chuck is allowed to pretend to be an insider to get attention, but I'm not allowed to point it out?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Goaltending, both starting and backup, is still extremely suspect.

Andersen is not suspect. He is one of the best starting goaltenders in the league.
Backup is a question mark, but they rarely are a significant factor in the playoffs.

Coaching is questionable too.

Every team (including every cup team) has had issues with their coach, usually the same ones that everybody has with Babcock. Fans think they know better, and while this may sometimes be true, it usually isn't. They don't have the same information. While he has some stupid habits, Babcock is a good coach. Whether he is the right coach is still to be seen, but coaching impacts are heavily overblown on this site.

Anybody that criticizes Babcock's recent playoff record does not understand the quality of teams he has faced.

Can they beat teams with a solid defensive game plan?

Sure they can. In the playoffs, they were the better 5v5 team against the 3rd best team in the league who also had the 3rd best GA, despite major injuries to Hyman, Dermott and Gardiner, and Kadri being suspended.

They had a great start and that saved them record wise, but the reality was they were around the 15 th best team in the NHL from Dec 1st.

Cherry picking certain time periods where they underperformed according to their underlying metrics and had significant injuries on a less deep defense and had a struggling Nylander, while ignoring their best time period, proves nothing.

I still think they’re a year, maybe two, away from being legit Stanley Cup contenders.

Then you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[hotpaws]

Nope, that's not how it works. You are supposed pray for a huge overpay and blame Dubas. Even though the first 2 were within the range of historical comparables, one of which was by far your best player and scoring goals at a league leading pace over his ELC.

''pray for an overpay and blame Dubas" wtf is wrong with you ? the universe doesn't revolve around Dubse like you and others seem to believe

''historic comparable's" Dubas could hand Marner the full 20% allowed and the Dubas fan club would be on here spinning themselves stupid trying to justify it

what the Dubas fan club should do is get together with Burke's massive fan club and trade stories of love for there favorite GM

 

[ottawa]

There is usually a trade off. Kids who never see their parents, kids who never have a parent at a special event, kids who roll off the track because their parents are chasing the dollar and believe money is more important than family.

I have given up money for family, but I have seen and have worked with others who believe power and money are more important than anything else. Money is more important than everything, health, family, environment and society in general. When we had our twins my employer questioned why I didn't want to work overtime and if I wasn't committed to the company ... I didn't work overtime I went home and took care of my family.

But if we're being realistic here, marner is set for life as soon as he signs his next contract unless he's a complete moron.

Why can't it be both? Money offers your family a better life, better school, better homes, etc.

Happiness usually costs money, I'm sure your family would rather enjoy luxuries of life than cheap activities like a day trip to Algonquin Park.

There's really no trade off unless you're looking for one imo. Marner is setting up his future generations for life.

 

[ottawa]

Based on this reply I'm not sure if you understood the actual point I was making.
I'll take your last two lines and use myself and compare it to Marner.

I make a pretty good living. Own a house, support my wife as she starts a home business etc. I love my job, love my company. If I was willing I could quite literally double my salary (actually more than) by taking up old classmates on opportunities in the City. But to do so I'd have to leave the job that I love at the company I believe in, do something I like less, and either commute 1.5 hours or move to the city. I had a choice, and I made it. What I didn't do was go to my company and demand that they match the city offer. It would be childish and unreasonable, it was a tradeoff that I was faced with, I wasn't entitled for them to give me both the job/lifestyle I wanted at the money the city could yield.

It's quite possible that Marner is faced with that same choice. A team willing to give him the money he wants, but to get it he has to give up the Maple Leaf dream, give up the endorsements, give up being on contender. But that's his choice, it's not on the Leafs to let him have his cake and eat it too. I am sympathetic that he's only 21 and learning this hard lesson directly in the public eye, but he needs to learn it quick and make his choice.

I kind of disagree with you. I switched jobs last year, this one paid almost 60% more and I definitely preferred the old one more.

I'm eyeing an early retirement

 

[Nineteen67]

Andersen is not suspect. He is one of the best starting goaltenders in the league.
Backup is a question mark, but they rarely are a significant factor in the playoffs.


Every team (including every cup team) has had issues with their coach, usually the same ones that everybody has with Babcock. Fans think they know better, and while this may sometimes be true, it usually isn't. They don't have the same information. While he has some stupid habits, Babcock is a good coach. Whether he is the right coach is still to be seen, but coaching impacts are heavily overblown on this site.

Anybody that criticizes Babcock's recent playoff record does not understand the quality of teams he has faced.


Sure they can. In the playoffs, they were the better 5v5 team against the 3rd best team in the league who also had the 3rd best GA, despite major injuries to Hyman, Dermott and Gardiner, and Kadri being suspended.


Cherry picking certain time periods where they underperformed according to their underlying metrics and had significant injuries on a less deep defense and had a struggling Nylander, while ignoring their best time period, proves nothing.


Then you'll be pleasantly surprised.

So you agree with me. Good.

Andersen’s playoffs have been terrible. He’s one of the biggest reasons they haven’t won a round. From game OT against Washington to the two game 7 against Boston.

ETA under 500 for 5 months is significant.

 

[4thline]

I kind of disagree with you. I switched jobs last year, this one paid almost 60% more and I definitely preferred the old one more.

I'm eyeing an early retirement

You chose differently, but you still had to make the choice. If certain reports are true the hold up on this contract could be that Marner doesn't want to choose.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Andersen’s playoffs have been terrible.

There may be legitimate criticism of his elimination game performances (which is not all on him), but Andersen's playoffs have been great, and there is no reason to think that he can't lead us far in the playoffs or to a cup when far worse goaltenders have done it after many of the same concerns.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Why can't it be both? Money offers your family a better life, better school, better homes, etc.

Happiness usually costs money, I'm sure your family would rather enjoy luxuries of life than cheap activities like a day trip to Algonquin Park.

There's really no trade off unless you're looking for one imo. Marner is setting up his future generations for life.

If players should only care about money and take their team to the cleaners, then why should I be a fan? Or you? You're cheering for millionaires who don't care that much about winning and only the almighty dollar. Marner might not care how far the Leafs go, only as long as he's getting paid? So why should I be a fan and continue to support their lifestyle? It seems stupid, doesn't it? If the players mostly care about how much money they make, then why should I care if they win or lose? I don't care about his future generations. Players come and go. I care about Leafs winning the cup.

 

[Nineteen67]

There may be legitimate criticism of his elimination game performances (which is not all on him), but Andersen's playoffs have been great, and there is no reason to think that he can't lead us far in the playoffs or to a cup when far worse goaltenders have done it after many of the same concerns.

Again, your agreeing. Glad to see.

 

[Nineteen67]

If players should only care about money and take their team to the cleaners, then why should I be a fan? Or you? You're cheering for millionaires who don't care that much about winning and only the almighty dollar. Marner might not care how far the Leafs go, only as long as he's getting paid? So why should I be a fan and continue to support their lifestyle? It seems stupid, doesn't it? If the players mostly care about how much money they make, then why should I care if they win or lose? I don't care about his future generations. Players come and go. I care about Leafs winning the cup.

That’s a valid question. But why do you care if they win a Cup? What’s in it for you?

 

[Nithoniniel]

If players should only care about money and take their team to the cleaners, then why should I be a fan?

From my perspective, what the players earn should have no impact on our fandom. I'm not a fan for them, rich or poor.

Toews is regarded as perhaps the most determined, goal-oriented player in the league, and he most definitely made sure to get the most he could on his latest contract. From the players perspective, the two aren't mutually exclusive. They'll get their money, and they'll make sure to be worth it, and building a competitive roster out of the rest is up to the GM.

Final point. Your perspective is about getting the most out of our every cap dollar so we are as competitive as possible, right? Well, what matters then is the value of their on-ice impact compared to cap dollars spent. I suggest looking at Dom Luszczyszyn's model for that. Guys like Marner, Tavares, and Matthews has enough impact on-ice to be worth well more than what they cost us. In essence, almost every contract to a star player is money well spent. From that point of view, you can honestly make a better case that depth players take more than they deserve so it's harder to afford a Marner than the other way around.