TSN: Marner’s Agent: UPDATE: No contract talks until after the season.

[hotpaws]

It's not logical. It's repetitive. It's redundant. It's unhelpful in trying to have an intelligent conversation that moves forward instead of in circles.

but ripping on Willie for 30 000 plus posts is "helpful , not repetitive , non redundant and moving forward an intelligent conversation" ?

 

[Duke Silver]

The leafs have established that they believe there are comparables in the nhl amd will not significantly deviate from those. I doubt nylander sitting out has helped him more then the leafs.

Leafs are one of best teams in nhl with willy at home. Him sitting saves leafs a few hundred thousand in cap space in future. Depending on how much the leafs came up it may have cost him more to sit these few months.

Marner will be in same boat. Leafs will give him fair offer and go from there. The issue is if winnipeg or colorado overpay for liane and ratanen.

I don’t see how this is any different from what I said?

Leafs will have their value for Marner.
Marner/Agent will have their own value.
Expect a huge initial gap that may not be bridged by the time camp starts.

 

[Battle Lin]

of course, you think these agents are stupid, they wanna get paid the most they can get too

 

[Mess]

It's not logical. It's repetitive. It's redundant. It's unhelpful in trying to have an intelligent conversation that moves forward instead of in circles.

Bob McKenzie yesterday was saying its Illogical for Leafs to have Nylander sit out the year, so he thinks a deal will get done, as there is too little $$ separating the sides now..

 

[Mr Hockey]

Bob McKenzie yesterday was saying its Illogical for Leafs to have Nylander sit out the year, so he thinks a deal will get done, as there is too little $$ separating the sides now..

I have said that a ways back, it makes zero sense to sit out Nylander

 

[Menzinger]

I absolutely love Mitch, and wish him all the best in his upcoming negotiation for fair value.

That said, I can’t help but wonder if a few folks on here won’t be so keen to talk about goal totals as they were in the Nylander threads when projecting value (ie like the fact that he’s on pace currently for under 20....)

 

[Mess]

I have said that a ways back, it makes zero sense to sit out Nylander

I agree, but apparently our opinion is not unanimous among Leaf Nation.

Oddly some Leaf fans want to stick it to Nylander and could care less if it results in him missing the season.

I get how opposition fans and even NHL teams would love nothing more than Leafs sitting Nylander for the season, particularly those that have Cup aspirations this year themselves.

Hard to explain how Nylander sitting helps Leafs Cup changes this year, so perhaps diehard fans like us are not seeing how it might be helpful.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

but ripping on Willie for 30 000 plus posts is "helpful , not repetitive , non redundant and moving forward an intelligent conversation" ?

It's you and 8 other guys who are blaming the Leafs/Dubas for all/most of this. You and 8 guys who think you're smarter than Kyle Dubas, the Leafs are abusive, Shanahan's fault, etc...its ridiculous!

...and have to post that silly stuff here 100 times a day while others continue to try and explain why that makes no sense everyday to no avail. I just want off the merry go round. It seems like a big troll job.

 

[Menzinger]

I think you're right on with Nylander /Marner but high on Matthews.

We don't need to pay a RFA that kind of money just because Buffalo and Edmonton did. Like every other FA, Matthews has limited leverage. Seguin earned his UFA rights and still settled for 9M. We don't need to pay Austin more than 10M. We might have to agree to a shorter term though of 6 years vs Eich/McDavid @ 8 years. Larkin at 6.1 over 5 is a recent RFA center and something we can use to say Matthews at 10 is a great deal for him.

Matthews has an awful lot more leverage than any other Leaf.

The guy has no ties to the city, if he isn’t offered fair value he can threaten to request a trade. And no GM in Toronto would survive in their job if it came out they lost a talent like Matthews over penny pinching 1-2 million.

That said, that doesn’t mean things have to be doom and gloom. Dubas and Shanahan just have to make a hard and convincing pitch for him to take a AAV that is fair to both sides. Personally I think he’ll come in at around 12 million.

 

[hotpaws]

It';s you and 8 otyher guys who are blaming the Leafs/Dubas for all/most of this. You and 8 guys who think you're smarter than Kyle Dubas, the Leafs are abusive, Shanahan's'fault, etc...its ridiculous!

...and have to post that silly stuff here 100 times a day while others continue to try and to explain why that makes no sense everyday to no avail. I just want off the merry go round. It seems like a big troll job.

so i should be part of gang that endlessly rips Willie for thread after thread based on what exactly ?

the biggest problem with this forum is how many people feel the need to blindly follow/defend/spin every move mgmt/coach makes and attack anyone who may not follow along

too bad they deleted years of posts since it would be priceless to link threads from the Burke era to show how identical the mgmt fan club was to the poster back then supporting Burke

also it's not about blaming someone , it's business and i understand that , i have no problem with either side however i just don't appreciate the team continually using the media to make themselves look like the good guys and paint Willie as being selfish and greedy since if that was true they should just trade him instead of trying to sign him

 

[Menzinger]

He has 94 points in his last 75 NHL games, not sure why we're still in wait and see mode here. Little bit more than what Pasta got, Tarasenko? What? That's so old news, and that's the risk we took not signing him.

And people are sleeping on the defensive end too, he's second in league in takeaways, fourth last year. He's now on the PK, he's on the ice holding leads, he's 200 feet of desire. Cha ching.

Sorry, but we are now staring at one of the most dynamic forwards in the entire league, and it ain't changing. Again, this was the fear heading into this year, and it's happening. Dubas was in a precarious situation with Nylander, not playing the fault game, but contract assumptions for Marner are now out the window. And god help us if do well in the playoffs.

And if his agent mentions that last 75 games pace, bring up his fairly cool start to the previous season.

If Leafs fans don’t want Dubas to play softball with Nylander, they should support the same with Marner. And there’s zero reason to make him the 3rd highest paid winger in the NHL immediately post ELC.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I absolutely love Mitch, and wish him all the best in his upcoming negotiation for fair value.

That said, I can’t help but wonder if a few folks on here won’t be so keen to talk about goal totals as they were in the Nylander threads when projecting value (ie like the fact that he’s on pace currently for under 20....)

Totally different players. Marner is a playmaker.

He is on pace for 89 assists

 

[Trapper]

I absolutely love Mitch, and wish him all the best in his upcoming negotiation for fair value.

That said, I can’t help but wonder if a few folks on here won’t be so keen to talk about goal totals as they were in the Nylander threads when projecting value (ie like the fact that he’s on pace currently for under 20....)

I’ve mentioned the fact that his goal scoring count should probably keep him out of the Kucherov/Kane level.
There aren’t to many wingers paid 9-10 million that don’t have the 30 + goals.
C and D can do it.

 

[Mess]

Matthews has an awful lot more leverage than any other Leaf.

The guy has no ties to the city, if he isn’t offered fair value he can threaten to request a trade. And no GM in Toronto would survive in their job if it came out they lost a talent like Matthews over penny pinching 1-2 million.

That said, that doesn’t mean things have to be doom and gloom. Dubas and Shanahan just have to make a hard and convincing pitch for him to take a AAV that is fair to both sides. Personally I think he’ll come in at around 12 million.

Unless Leafs try and lowball Matthews and he reaches RFA status, because the threat of an offer-sheet for $15 mil season is highly probably and real.

Edmonton, Buffalo etc all jumped the shark and got their franchise #1C signed a year in advance by overpaying knowing full well an offersheet would make that contract price even higher, if they allowed their player to naturally let their ELC expire.

Nylander has less leverage in this respect and so playing hardball with him, is playing in the shallow end of the pool but its going to be deep sea fishing time when Auston and Mitch are up.

Not sure these so called hardball tactics are sending the right message to future RFAs that have more leverage to push back.

 

[DarkKnight]

And if his agent mentions that last 75 games pace, bring up his fairly cool start to the previous season.

If Leafs fans don’t want Dubas to play softball with Nylander, they should support the same with Marner. And there’s zero reason to make him the 3rd highest paid winger in the NHL immediately post ELC.

Ya, the cool start to his sophomore season, ancient history, will be a real effective retort. I will support hardball with Marner, if we get him under 9 I'd be ecstatic.

I'd just add here, Marner is doing things in his contract year than Nylander never came close to, so when negotiating he goes in as more of a "proven" commodity (all this assumes he stays close to this level of course) , there is less team risk, making hardball a bit more problematic on a practical level.

As for goals, that's the one caveat with his contract, but when you're the best primary assist guy since Lemieux, again a nice counter. His assists are the most deserved I've ever seen.

Nylander and Marner, the analogies less and less relevant each day.

 

[Menzinger]

I’ve mentioned the fact that his goal scoring count should probably keep him out of the Kucherov/Kane level.
There aren’t to many wingers paid 9-10 million that don’t have the 30 + goals.
C and D can do it.

Yep.

Pasta for example 34 goals during his contract year.

I’m a guy who values play making pretty highly, but I think this shouldn’t necessarily be ignored

 

[Menzinger]

Ya, the cool start to his sophomore season, ancient history, will be a real effective retort. I will support hardball with Marner, if we get him under 9 I'd be ecstatic.

I'd just add here, Marner is doing things in his contract year than Nylander never came close to, so when negotiating he goes in as more of a "proven" commodity (all this assumes he stays close to this level of course) , there is less team risk, making hardball a bit more problematic on a practical level.

As for goals, that's the one caveat with his contract, but when you're the best primary assist guy since Lemieux, again a nice counter. His assists are the most deserved I've ever seen.

Nylander and Marner, the analogies less and less relevant each day.

His PDO is at 104, so I would say it’s likely a fair assumption his scoring rate will dip before seasons end.His goal scoring rate should increase a bit though.

I don’t think he’s a safe bet to call a 9 mil player (froma negotiating position pov). Marner is an amazing player to watch, but folks need to keep their excitement in check when thinking about contracts, 20 goal scorers don’t get 9 million.

 

[DarkKnight]

His PDO is at 104, so I would say it’s likely a fair assumption his scoring rate will dip before seasons end.His goal scoring rate should increase a bit though.

I don’t think he’s a safe bet to call a 9 mil player (froma negotiating position pov). Marner is an amazing player to watch, but folks need to keep their excitement in check when thinking about contracts, 20 goal scorers don’t get 9 million.

He's driving the team, it's not because he's pretty to watch. And guys who vie for a scoring title get paid, especially when they're also putting up impressive two way stats,takeaways.

Hey if he fades a bit I'll adjust back down, I had him at 7.5 going into the year so. I'm just commenting on where this is going, based on what we've seen this year, and last year, playoffs. This is exceptional stuff, and sure Dubas plays the goal count angle hard, I just see some unique counters. If we get him in the 8's, awesome, it's a zero sum game and the Leafs are my team. I'm not counting on it though, 21 year olds haven't exactly peaked and he's already a total beast.

 

[Trapper]

Yep.

Pasta for example 34 goals during his contract year.

I’m a guy who values play making pretty highly, but I think this shouldn’t necessarily be ignored

This isn't a knock on the extreme talent that Marner is.
No doubt it could be devolved around here into that.
But if we are using one metric for Nylander, we have to do the same for Marner.

 

[18leafsfan18]

This isn't a knock on the extreme talent that Marner is.
No doubt it could be devolved around here into that.
But if we are using one metric for Nylander, we have to do the same for Marner.

The argument might be made that he doesn't have a lot of goals, but his point totals are projecting to be way higher then Nylander's point totals in his contract year.

Do you think they value goals higher then assists in these negotiations ? I would assume they don't.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Fixed. I don't see why Matthews as an RFA should be earning as much as Tavares. JT and Marner has been carrying the Leafs since Matty got injured. Matthews' injury history should be a concern on a long term deal. I like Matthews, but do we pay him top dollars to play 60 games a year? $80 million over 8 years is plenty rich for Matthews.

Good post. Something that should be definitely considered.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I'm really glad we have this thread - now we something to talk about for the next 8-12 months after the Nylander situation is finally resolved.

Isn't it great?

 

[Trapper]

The argument might be made that he doesn't have a lot of goals, but his point totals are projecting to be way higher then Nylander's point totals in his contract year.

Do you think they value goals higher then assists in these negotiations ? I would assume they don't.

And that's fair.
On one hand you have Nylander in a contract year based on back to back 60 point seasons.
Marner could very well be entering his contract year with 80-100 point season.
So obviously the value is different.
Now in terms of how different.
Both Nylander/Marner are 20 goal scorers.
So where do Nylander/Marner vs. Kucherov/Rantanen land in value.
Marner is on pace for 100 + points, 20 goals.
Rantanen is on pace for 100 + points, 34 goals.

Laine is on pace for 79 points, 68 goals. Now who gets more out of 2 80 point players in this case? The goals or assists.

So in terms of comparables against peers, how do you start evaluating?
Goals, assists, points, all 3. Is there an NHL GM/league priority?

 

[Nithoniniel]

Totally different players. Marner is a playmaker.

He is on pace for 89 assists

Nylander is also a playmaker. Both of them produce primarily by assists. In fact, Marner is more prone to shoot rather than pass than Nylander is. Willy has been setting up shots at a higher rate than Marner*.

They are both pure playmakers. Judging either solely on goalscoring as some tried to with Nylander is just being willfully obtuse.

* Before this season. I have no idea how these 25 games have changed things.

 

[18leafsfan18]

And that's fair.
On one hand you have Nylander in a contract year based on back to back 60 point seasons.
Marner could very well be entering his contract year with 80-100 point season.
So obviously the value is different.
Now in terms of how different.
Both Nylander/Marner are 20 goal scorers.
So where do Nylander/Marner vs. Kucherov/Rantanen land in value.
Marner is on pace for 100 + points, 20 goals.
Rantanen is on pace for 100 + points, 34 goals.

Laine is on pace for 79 points, 68 goals. Now who gets more out of 2 80 point players in this case? The goals or assists.

So in terms of comparables against peers, how do you start evaluating?
Goals, assists, points, all 3. Is there an NHL GM/league priority?

I'm sure each side will use those numbers good or bad for their own advantage, but really the points should be the decider in my opinion. Maybe with a bit of a different gauge for type of assist (Did the player create a goal on the assist or did they just throw the puck off the boards in a breakout etc.)

But I am obviously not a player, agent or GM so I have no idea really.