Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects

[Isaac Nootin]

Curious as to why you have Robertson at #3, when if you add up his "future" total (skating, shot, IQ etc.) it's higher than both Liljegren and Sandin.

 

[stickty111]

Curious as to why you have Robertson at #3, when if you add up his "future" total (skating, shot, IQ etc.) it's higher than both Liljegren and Sandin.

Simple.
Liljegren and Sandin established themselves as all star top pair defenseman in a pro league.
I look at performance in respective leagues and talent.

 

[stickty111]

I'd probably disagree with you Stickty and have Sandin at #1, Robertson at #2 and Liljeren at #3 but all 3 of them are excellent prospects So I think that is more personal preference than any noticeable difference in ability or ceiling

On to Sandin
● Strong 4-way mobility, straight line speed is meh
● Nice instincts and offensive vision, he also makes a solid outlet pass and has enough skill to make plays in traffic
● Defensive improvement and as he gains strength I can see it becoming a strength of his game, I liked him on the PK for the Marlies
● Underrated physicality that will become a strength as he develops
● His shot is so so for power but its accurate and he gets it through
● makes good pinches to keep the puck in and walks the Blue line extremely well

The kids a beast, he was awesome on the Marlies and whilst he was overpowered physically on the Leafs at times he didn't look out of place at the NHL level under some extremely trying circumstances, it's amazing a kid that age looked that good

I'm going to say the same thing I said about him I said about Liljeren, I think he's going to be a good 2nd pair minute eating defenseman who plays on both special teams that we can use against quality competition in all situations who plays for the Leafs a long time

Just a great pick, kudos to our amateur scouts and front office for getting this gem that late in the 1st, he's a feather in Dubas cap (like Robertson)

Yeah I understand that, but Liljegren was an elite defenseman in a pro league, so he gets it above Robertson, and his defensive ability is much higher then Sandin right now.
I believe all 3 are blue chip prospects, so it doesn't matter who you put where.

 

[biotk]

Curious as to why you have Robertson at #3, when if you add up his "future" total (skating, shot, IQ etc.) it's higher than both Liljegren and Sandin.

If you add up totals the real curiosity would be why the Leafs' would play a D in the NHL for 28 games who, among the 20 best prospects in the organization is at "present" only better than Rasanen and Holmberg.

"Present" totals for D:

23 - Liljegren



21.5 - Lindgren

21 - Kral

20 - Hollowell
20 - Koster

19.5 - Duszak
19.5 - Kokkonen
19.5 - Sandin

19 - Rasanen

 

[meefer]

Yeah I understand that, but Liljegren was an elite defenseman in a pro league, so he gets it above Robertson, and his defensive ability is much higher then Sandin right now.
I believe all 3 are blue chip prospects, so it doesn't matter who you put where.

Not getting to see these kids, I defer to other's impressions, but thoroughly based on ignorance I'll place my head on the block and order them: Robertson, Liljegren, and then Sandin. Robertson for his obvious skills and compete level, Liljegren for his defensive acumen and physical strength, with Sandin losing out ( ) because he'll not be as good defensively and won't be as flashy offensively as the other two.

 

[Martin Skoula]

If you add up totals the real curiosity would be why the Leafs' would play a D in the NHL for 28 games who, among the 20 best prospects in the organization is at "present" only better than Rasanen and Holmberg.

"Present" totals for D:

23 - Liljegren



21.5 - Lindgren

21 - Kral

20 - Hollowell
20 - Koster

19.5 - Duszak
19.5 - Kokkonen
19.5 - Sandin

19 - Rasanen

Not that I agree with the rankings, but Sandin and Liljegrens are the only ones that read the game at something close to an NHL level. You can be bigger, faster, and a better shooter than Sandin, but does it matter if you end up chasing the play all game?

 

[stickty111]

Not getting to see these kids, I defer to other's impressions, but thoroughly based on ignorance I'll place my head on the block and order them: Robertson, Liljegren, and then Sandin. Robertson for his obvious skills and compete level, Liljegren for his defensive acumen and physical strength, with Sandin losing out ( ) because he'll not be as good defensively and won't be as flashy offensively as the other two.

I agree with your post, but disagree with the bolded. I think Sandin will be the more flashy player then Lilly, but at full maturity, there production might be somewhat familiar.

 

[meefer]

I agree with your post, but disagree with the bolded. I think Sandin will be the more flashy player then Lilly, but at full maturity, there production might be somewhat familiar.

Sorry, @stickty111, my initial post was poorly phrased. I was comparing the flash of Sandin to the flash of Robertson and the defensive abilities of Sandin to those of Liljegren. Regardless of how they mature, at this point they all seem like very good picks, with the chance of being excellent picks. A good problem to have. I believe you had him ranked in the early to mid-teens, but my dark horse is Brooks. I just like the way his coaches appear to appreciate his game. They're the closest to the game, they know how the players fit in and how they contribute, and it seems that once Adam figures it out, he becomes a an important piece of glue that helps bring a team's success to a higher level. Not to paint him as a clone, but I sort of see Adam Brooks and how his coaches have consistently viewed him as a bit like Babcock viewed Hyman: the guy's smart, plays hard, does it right and is going to get better. I hope the same for Brooks, I like underdogs

 

[stickty111]

Sorry, @stickty111, my initial post was poorly phrased. I was comparing the flash of Sandin to the flash of Robertson and the defensive abilities of Sandin to those of Liljegren. Regardless of how they mature, at this point they all seem like very good picks, with the chance of being excellent picks. A good problem to have. I believe you had him ranked in the early to mid-teens, but my dark horse is Brooks. I just like the way his coaches appear to appreciate his game. They're the closest to the game, they know how the players fit in and how they contribute, and it seems that once Adam figures it out, he becomes a an important piece of glue that helps bring a team's success to a higher level. Not to paint him as a clone, but I sort of see Adam Brooks and how his coaches have consistently viewed him as a bit like Babcock viewed Hyman: the guy's smart, plays hard, does it right and is going to get better. I hope the same for Brooks, I like underdogs

No worries. I had Brooks at #20. While the upside isn't much, he has some decent skills and is already a potential NHL depth option. Keefe really likes him.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

AHL is officially cancelled.

Gives the Marlies a good excuse as to why they won't make the playoffs. It was not happening this year under Moore, so he better take this time to get his crap together or find himself out of a job before the end of next year.

 

[biotk]

Not that I agree with the rankings, but Sandin and Liljegrens are the only ones that read the game at something close to an NHL level. You can be bigger, faster, and a better shooter than Sandin, but does it matter if you end up chasing the play all game?

That's fine. But...

Out of the “top-20” prospects on that list there were 3 who were listed as having a lower hockey IQ than Sandin at “present” (Hollowell, Duszak and Kara). All the other prospects had a hockey IQ as good or better than the prospect who has coaches and NHL players raving about his hockey IQ and who Karl Stewart of NHL Central Scouting said had hockey IQ that was “off the charts.” That must be the most amazing groups of prospects any team has ever had in the history of the game….even though most people rank the Leafs’ prospect pool as being pretty poor.

And yes it could be that those other D are bigger and faster and a better shooters than Sandin….even though, with the exception of Rasanen (and Liljegren - who is only slightly bigger and stronger than Sandin), they are all smaller, and Sandin has a better goals per game than any of the AHL D, despite his shot being the best for deflections which leads to assists instead of goals.

Of course, the big difference is that Sandin is terrible defensively (only Duszak is worse according to this list) and Liljegren is very good defensively. Keefe has coached them both for years and he knows their defensive abilities better than anyone so when the Leafs’ were in a position where defensive play was needed Sandin must have had his butt stapled to the bench while Liljegren was out there. You certainly should see this in third periods where the Leafs are up by 1 goal. And on the penalty kill too.

To demonstrate this we should look at the 10 games in which both were in the lineup (to control for other variables).

In the first two periods of those 10 games Liljegren played a total of 76:20. Sandin 99:22 (30% more than Liljegren). In the third periods for the 4 games where the Leafs were trailing going into the 3rd period Liljegren played 12:03 and Sandin 22:16 (85% more). That is too be expected. The Leafs need offense so Sandin goes on.

How about third period ice time for the other 6 games when the Leafs’ are either tied or have the lead going into the third. For these 6 third periods the Leafs were always either tied, up by 1 goal or up by 2 goals (they were never up by more than 2 goals or trailing during those 6 games after the third period started).

For those 6 games during the third period when the Leafs were up by 2 goals Liljegren played 5:18 and Sandin played 8:41 (64% more)….but the Leafs’ were up by two so while defending is still very important it is not as important as if you only up by 1 or if the game was tied.

For those 6 games during the third period when the Leafs’ were up by 1 goal Liljegren played 5:40 and Sandin played 13:45 (143% more).

For those 6 games after the second period when the game was tied Liljegren played 2:58 and Sandin played 11:11 ( 277% more).

In fact during the first 2 periods of those 10 games Liljegren played 19.1% of the ice time (if you played all your D completely equally they would all average 33.3%, so this was 3rd pairing ice time, and a little on the low side). In the third if the Leafs were either losing or up by 2 goals his percentage of ice time fell slightly to 16.4%. But in the third if the Leafs’ were either tied or up by 1 goal (the times when being defensively sound are the most important) his percentage of ice time fell dramatically to only 9.0% of the ice time.

For Sandin the first 2 periods he played 24.8% of the ice time. In the third if the Leafs’ were either losing or up by 2 goals his percentage of ice time increased to 29.2%. But even in the third when the Leafs’ were either tied or up by a goal the percentage of his ice time increased over the first two periods to 25.9%.

(During those 10 games Liljegren did play more total PK time – 5:12 vs only 5:00 for Sandin…so an average of 31 seconds a game vs 30 seconds).

How is it that Keefe doesn’t understand that Sandin is bad defensively and Liljegren is good defensively? Actually….how is it that Babs also didn’t understand that Sandin was bad defensively or that Liljegren was good defensively? Because it is pure nonsense.

 

[The Podium]

That's fine. But...

Out of the “top-20” prospects on that list there were 3 who were listed as having a lower hockey IQ than Sandin at “present” (Hollowell, Duszak and Kara). All the other prospects had a hockey IQ as good or better than the prospect who has coaches and NHL players raving about his hockey IQ and who Karl Stewart of NHL Central Scouting said had hockey IQ that was “off the charts.” That must be the most amazing groups of prospects any team has ever had in the history of the game….even though most people rank the Leafs’ prospect pool as being pretty poor.

And yes it could be that those other D are bigger and faster and a better shooters than Sandin….even though, with the exception of Rasanen (and Liljegren - who is only slightly bigger and stronger than Sandin), they are all smaller, and Sandin has a better goals per game than any of the AHL D, despite his shot being the best for deflections which leads to assists instead of goals.

Of course, the big difference is that Sandin is terrible defensively (only Duszak is worse according to this list) and Liljegren is very good defensively. Keefe has coached them both for years and he knows their defensive abilities better than anyone so when the Leafs’ were in a position where defensive play was needed Sandin must have had his butt stapled to the bench while Liljegren was out there. You certainly should see this in third periods where the Leafs are up by 1 goal. And on the penalty kill too.

To demonstrate this we should look at the 10 games in which both were in the lineup (to control for other variables).

In the first two periods of those 10 games Liljegren played a total of 76:20. Sandin 99:22 (30% more than Liljegren). In the third periods for the 4 games where the Leafs were trailing going into the 3rd period Liljegren played 12:03 and Sandin 22:16 (85% more). That is too be expected. The Leafs need offense so Sandin goes on.

How about third period ice time for the other 6 games when the Leafs’ are either tied or have the lead going into the third. For these 6 third periods the Leafs were always either tied, up by 1 goal or up by 2 goals (they were never up by more than 2 goals or trailing during those 6 games after the third period started).

For those 6 games during the third period when the Leafs were up by 2 goals Liljegren played 5:18 and Sandin played 8:41 (64% more)….but the Leafs’ were up by two so while defending is still very important it is not as important as if you only up by 1 or if the game was tied.

For those 6 games during the third period when the Leafs’ were up by 1 goal Liljegren played 5:40 and Sandin played 13:45 (143% more).

For those 6 games after the second period when the game was tied Liljegren played 2:58 and Sandin played 11:11 ( 277% more).

In fact during the first 2 periods of those 10 games Liljegren played 19.1% of the ice time (if you played all your D completely equally they would all average 33.3%, so this was 3rd pairing ice time, and a little on the low side). In the third if the Leafs were either losing or up by 2 goals his percentage of ice time fell slightly to 16.4%. But in the third if the Leafs’ were either tied or up by 1 goal (the times when being defensively sound are the most important) his percentage of ice time fell dramatically to only 9.0% of the ice time.

For Sandin the first 2 periods he played 24.8% of the ice time. In the third if the Leafs’ were either losing or up by 2 goals his percentage of ice time increased to 29.2%. But even in the third when the Leafs’ were either tied or up by a goal the percentage of his ice time increased over the first two periods to 25.9%.

(During those 10 games Liljegren did play more total PK time – 5:12 vs only 5:00 for Sandin…so an average of 31 seconds a game vs 30 seconds).

How is it that Keefe doesn’t understand that Sandin is bad defensively and Liljegren is good defensively? Actually….how is it that Babs also didn’t understand that Sandin was bad defensively or that Liljegren was good defensively? Because it is pure nonsense.

You do realize you are using a 10 game sample? Regardless, it is also possible for younger prospects to develop faster which is true in the case of Sandin. He looked more poised and more comfortable than Lilly in their short stint.

If you followed Lilly at all in the past, or even listened to Keefes comments, you'd know that Lilly struggles with change and once he settles in he improves significantly.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Is abramov eligible for AHL next season?

 

[stickty111]

You do realize you are using a 10 game sample? Regardless, it is also possible for younger prospects to develop faster which is true in the case of Sandin. He looked more poised and more comfortable than Lilly in their short stint.

If you followed Lilly at all in the past, or even listened to Keefes comments, you'd know that Lilly struggles with change and once he settles in he improves significantly.

@biotk is only making these posts because I dared to put Liljegren have higher marks then Sandin. Also the defensive play is not pure nonsense as he put. Sandin struggled even in the AHL defensively and had some moments like that with the Leafs as well. If the poster doesn't want to admit that, then thats his call. I also put Sandin as a 4 for future value for defense, but that was obviously ignored.

I thought I would would just tell you why the user is complaining.

 

[stickty111]

If you add up totals the real curiosity would be why the Leafs' would play a D in the NHL for 28 games who, among the 20 best prospects in the organization is at "present" only better than Rasanen and Holmberg.

"Present" totals for D:

23 - Liljegren



21.5 - Lindgren

21 - Kral

20 - Hollowell
20 - Koster

19.5 - Duszak
19.5 - Kokkonen
19.5 - Sandin

19 - Rasanen

If you have an issue with my rankings, then tell me straight up instead of pretty much attacking me to another user.
If you actually followed prospect evaluations, they go on talent and performance. Sandin has been better then Liljegren so he is playing in the NHL.

Actually your just baiting for attention at this post. No point with you.

 

[stickty111]

If you add up totals the real curiosity would be why the Leafs' would play a D in the NHL for 28 games who, among the 20 best prospects in the organization is at "present" only better than Rasanen and Holmberg.

"Present" totals for D:

23 - Liljegren



21.5 - Lindgren

21 - Kral

20 - Hollowell
20 - Koster

19.5 - Duszak
19.5 - Kokkonen
19.5 - Sandin

19 - Rasanen

Delete

 

[stickty111]

Well well lookie here

 

[stickty111]

At the risk of more criticism for my Lilly stance

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Well well lookie here

Well if he is not in the top 6 next year, he won't be in the NHL so Gilman is kind of making a moot point

If he is not in the top 6, he is easily the #7 ahead of whatever is next. It is clear the top 7 right now is Rielly, Muzzin, Dermott, Lehtonen, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren. It's just a matter of who is the #7 out of that list. It's most likely Sandin or Liljegren, which means the worse of the two likely ends up in the AHL.

 

[LaPlante94]

We did with Lilly what Babcock did with Rielly in the NHL. Got him to focus more on the defensive side of the game and forget about the offence so much to become a much better 2 way player. Both still aren't perfect and make mistakes on the defensive side but are much better than what they were when we drafted them. I would love to see Lilly be D partners with Muzzin next season and possibly for the next few years if they develop some good chemistry.

 

[Byron Bitz]

AHL is officially cancelled.

Gives the Marlies a good excuse as to why they won't make the playoffs. It was not happening this year under Moore, so he better take this time to get his crap together or find himself out of a job before the end of next year.

We gotta get this team back to the playoffs next year, it’s such a great setting for prospect development. Robertson, Liljegren and Sandin could all join the team once NHL/CHL season wraps up.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Is abramov eligible for AHL next season?

No, it's birth year based. The 2000's from the CHL are AHL eligible next year. Abramov is a 2001

 

[biotk]

You do realize you are using a 10 game sample? Regardless, it is also possible for younger prospects to develop faster which is true in the case of Sandin. He looked more poised and more comfortable than Lilly in their short stint.

If you followed Lilly at all in the past, or even listened to Keefes comments, you'd know that Lilly struggles with change and once he settles in he improves significantly.

Keefe knows his D very well. And this has absolutely zero to do with speed of development. Stickty's rating has Sandin as a trainwreck in his own zone right now and Liljegren as being great in his own zone right now. But Somehow Keefe, despite having coached them both for years hasn't figured that out when he puts out D in third period protecting a 1 goal lead.

But I am glad that we have found the latest pivot. From denying that Liljegren struggled in his stretch in the NHL to admitting it now that there is an excuse. I will stick with the people who understand enough about hockey that they could see that Liljegren was struggling at the time he was clearly struggling.

 

[Byron Bitz]

No, it's birth year based. The 2000's from the CHL are AHL eligible next year. Abramov is a 2001

That’s too bad, not sure who our best rookies joining the team wel be. I guess SDA and maybe Pontus Holmberg.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

No, it's birth year based. The 2000's from the CHL are AHL eligible next year. Abramov is a 2001

Not entirely true. If he was loaned to the CHL team, he could. I do not believe Abramov was loaned (most Russians are not), but Sandin was drafted out of the CHL but because he was only loaned to the team from Europe, he was able to play in the AHL at 18.

Loponen is able to play in the AHL next year, but he's no where near good enough and may be heading back to Finland anyways.