Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects

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stickty111

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Keefe knows his defense well. He even dropped Sandin to the 3rd pairing a few times after the kid was clearly struggling with the Leafs defensively, despite pushback on this suggestion by a few posters.
Even with the Marlies, Sandin's OSZ% was higher then Lilly.
It's good though we have more things being made up by this poster, which usually suggests not being able to admit reality.

After Ceci and Rielly were both out, Sandin was 6th in ES ice time/game.
 

SeaOfBlue

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That’s too bad, not sure who our best rookies joining the team wel be. I guess SDA and maybe Pontus Holmberg.

Pontus Holmberg recently signed a 2 year extension with Vaxjo, which would take him to the end of our exclusive rights with him. He's not coming to the AHL before then I would say.

SDA, Kral, Brazeau and maybe Stotts will likely be the rookies on the team next year. However, there will be a number of sophomores (Duszak, Hollowell, Lindgren, Rubins, Pooley and possibly Kivihalme and Elynuik).
 

Canada4Gold

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Not entirely true. If he was loaned to the CHL team, he could. I do not believe Abramov was loaned (most Russians are not), but Sandin was drafted out of the CHL but because he was only loaned to the team from Europe, he was able to play in the AHL at 18.

Loponen is able to play in the AHL next year, but he's no where near good enough and may be heading back to Finland anyways.

I know about the loan loophole. Pretty certain it doesn't apply which is why I didn't mention it.
 

stickty111

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If you had put Sandin ahead of Liljegren I would have been concerned as you have been wrong about both every step of the way.

But I knew the scores would be golden.
Nah you seem to get motivation by telling others are wrong. You should get that fixed.
Your the one who has been wrong.
You said Lilly stalled? Wrong
Lilly struggling and used useless stats like GF? Wrong
Sandin is a great defensive player? Wrong
These are just samples.

Your attacks and insults are nice though.
You don't like my rankings then don't read them. I never claimed to be an expert. It's why I used @Kiwi and @SeaOfBlue in the posts as I believe they know more then me.
The fact your complaining about Sandin and Lilly though shows your obsessed. It's unhealthy behaviour.
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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You said Lilly stalled? Wrong

Lilly had stalled. Remember when I said that Lilly wouldn't get called up until he dramatically increased his ES production - and then he wasn't called up until he dramatically increased his ES production?

Lilly struggling and used useless stats like GF? Wrong

Yeah back in the fall of 2018 when you knew that Liljegren was playing awesome (before admitting that he wasn't after Keefe made clear that he was playing very poorly) because Liljegren's biggest super fan was giving ridiculously unreliable CF% numbers for Liljegren that no sane person would believe especially as the team was getting scored on all the time when he was on the ice (and as Keefe made clear he was playing poorly at the time - which was correctly reflected in the GF/GA numbers I gave and the complete opposite of the bogus CF numbers you believed in).

Sandin is a great defensive player? Wrong

I have never said that Sandin is a great defensive player. He is not great, or even good, but he is also not bad - which you wrongly think he is. And Liljegren is not great or good either (you being wrong again) - as we have seen in terms of how much Keefe trusts them (Sandin a little, Liljegren almost not at all) in situations where defensive play is very important - which has been the opposite of what you said would be the case in the NHL just before Sandin's second stint in the NHL started.

The sad thing though is Lilly has to deal with a fraction of a fanbase who believes and will be expecting that he is really good defensively (because of the nonsense spread by a few). Not fair expectations to burden a kid with (especially one who has already experienced unreasonable expectations on him) who as Gillam correct notes is expected to only be #7 or #8 next season.
 
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stickty111

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Lilly had stalled. Remember when I said that Lilly wouldn't get called up until he dramatically increased his ES production - and then he wasn't called up until he dramatically increased his ES production?



Yeah back in the fall of 2018 when you knew that Liljegren was playing awesome (before admitting that he wasn't after Keefe made clear that he was playing very poorly) because Liljegren's biggest super fan was giving ridiculously unreliable CF% numbers for Liljegren that no sane person would believe especially as the team was getting scored on all the time when he was on the ice (and as Keefe made clear he was playing poorly at the time - which was correctly reflected in the GF/GA numbers I gave and the complete opposite of the bogus CF numbers you believed in).



I have never said that Sandin is a great defensive player. He is not great, or even good, but he is also not bad - which you wrongly think he is. And Liljegren is not great or good either (you being wrong again) - as we have seen in terms of how much Keefe trusts them (Sandin a little, Liljegren almost not at all) in situations where defensive play is very important - which has been the opposite of what you said would be the case in the NHL just before Sandin's second stint in the NHL started.
Your being obsessive again. Bad sign
You said he completely stalled as a prospect. Wrong again you were.

You were using GF% as if thats the only thing that mattered, when golden boy Sandin was struggling especially at the end of the playoffs. Keefe agreed with the matchups both were getting.

You said Sandin was playing really well in all situations. You were wrong again.
You denied Lilly playing well defensively. Wrong again when he was.

I'm done with your biased nature. If your goal here was to ruin a good conversation regarding actual hockey talk, then you did well, but I am fine with my rankings but am open to debate from actual trusted users.
 

biotk

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Your being obsessive again. Bad sign

Lol. No one in the last 2 years has been able to post anything accurate about Liljegren without you attacking them.

You post lies about Sandin all the time and I haven't responded to any of them - because they are too funny to bother.

If anyone posted a rating system where Liljegren's "present" rating was below pretty much every D prospect in the system they would never hear the end of your bleating. But no one would, because no one is as dishonest about a prospect as you are with Sandin.
 
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SeaOfBlue

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Assuming Greenway returns to Maine for his senior season but haven't seen that published anywhere. Is that the case?

He has not been signed by the Leafs and likely will not be signed by the Leafs this year. We own his rights until August 15th, 2021. So unless he is deciding to leave to sign a non-NHL pro contract somewhere, he is likely going back for his senior year. It often is not posted unless there is a legitimate possibility that the guy was going to leave before his senior year. Greenway is not really one of those guys.
 

deletethis

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Greenway seems to be a quality skater. I still can't think of an example an NHL draft pick switching colleges then making it in the NHL. I guess there could be a first time. His brother Jordan is in the NHL and is a bit of an ugly skater. Anyone who remembers the Leafs' 2003 2nd round pick John Doherty can see the similarities: a mobile big kid who has trouble reading the game. He's still only 22. Edit: I bet if the Leafs don't sign him to an ELC next summer, some other NHL team will. NHL teams like to take flyers on big mobile defensemen and they also like when the player has a brother already in the league.
 
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deletethis

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Liljegren was the lowest Corsi of anyone who played on the Leafs' defense this past season (44.1%). That's with 54% offensive zone starts.
 

Kiwi

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Liljegren was the lowest Corsi of anyone who played on the Leafs' defense this past season (44.1%). That's with 54% offensive zone starts.

He's one of the best defenseman in the AHL and he and Sandin were extremely good together at the AHL level

Have some patients, not everybody is Austin Matthew's, the defenseman in the NHL before his 21st birthday may take a little bit of time to acclimstize and have some developing to do still, bloody hell
 
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LeafsOHLRangers98

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The biggest thing with both Liljegren and Sandin was that we were never able to insulate them properly at the NHL level.

We had our entire projected top 6 together for 1 game this year and Muzzin got hurt in that game. When Sandin and Liljegren were both up we had them leaning on a top 4 of Marincin-Barrie, Dermott-Holl to help them out.

Say what you will about Ceci, but having him, Muzzin, and Rielly all out at the same time left a huge leadership gap on the back end when those kids were playing 10-14 minutes a night.
 
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stickty111

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End of year prospect Awards
Top Prospect
-Timothy Liljegren
You could make the case for Sandin, and I wouldn’t totally disagree with it, but Liljegren has the same top pair upside, and has grown really well.

Prospect of the year
-Nicholas Robertson
This is the only one which I can say nobody but him deserved it. Many prospects had great seasons, but what Robertson did this season is simply amazing, and turned himself into an elite prospect.

Highest Upside
-Rasmus Sandin
There were contenders in Roberson and maybe Liljegren, but Sandin’s development has taken a major boom since being drafted. The steps he has taken have been remarkable, and he isn’t even scratching the surface of what he could become. His upside is a true #1 defenseman who can drive play, and give you major minutes in every situation.

Best Offensive skills(non Shot)
-SDA
I made a different section for skills and shot because I feel like it would be unfair to some prospects. I don’t think it’s fair to knock a 5 shot grade prospect if his skills are only 3 or something, and vice versa. I had thoughts about this one between SDA and Bracco. They are both passing wizards and truly elite playmakers. I went with SDA though because I feel like SDA’s skills show up on even strength more than it does for Bracco. Maybe it’s the wrong way to look at things, but I do value high even strength production highly. Despite Bracco’s high point totals in the AHL, it is a fair argument his passes show up more on the PP.

Best Shot
-Nicholas Robertson
This one goes without saying

Best Skater
-Mac Hollowell
I didn’t have much debate on this one either. His skating is fantastic in every way. Speed, agility, edgework, escapability, Hollowell has all of it.

Defense
-Mikko Kokkonen
I had thoughts of Lilljegren, but Kokkonen has been regarded as an advanced defensive player for his age, and is NHL ready in terms of defensive play. His awareness of what to do in each situation is terrific.

Compete
-Nicholas Robertson
Again don’t need to explain this

Hockey IQ/Smarts-
Nick Abruzzese
The good thing about the Leafs system is that there are many high IQ players. From Kokkonen, to Holmberg, to Sandin, Lilljegren among others, but I am giving to Abruzzese. He has a lot of skill, but his points come from because he is extremely smart. Scouts really like his smarts, and the way he studies the game well.

Most Underrated Prospect-
Jesper Lindgren
I am going to continue on this train. He has had steady development throughout his career, and was one of the better defensemen for the Marlies this season, and if he can stay healthy, he should receive an NHL call up sooner rather than later.

Prospect who took the biggest step-
Nicholas Robertson
Honestly, you could give this to Abramov or Abruzzese, but unprecedented goal scoring and growth after his draft year, I can’t give it to anyone else

Prospect who could take the biggest step-
Mikko Kokkonen
This one might surprise some, but his game is so well rounded and translatable that I wouldn’t be surprised he establishes himself as a great defenseman in Liiga, and his 2nd half was really good this season.

Do you agree @SeaOfBlue and @Kiwi?
 
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Kiwi

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I'd go Sandin as top prospect

Best year Robertson (although Sandin doing as well as he did for the Leafs deserves consideration)

Upside Robertson (although Sandin is arguable again)

Offensive skills to Abruzzese (SDA and Bracco certainly have an argument)

Skater is Hollowell imo

Defense is Liljegren (Lindgren also has an argument)

Compete is definitely Robertson imo

Smarts I'm going SDA (we do have a lot of high IQ prospects though imo)

Underrated is Abramov to me (I think he's our 4th best prospect)

A player i could see doing really well next season is Hollowell, he seemed to be figuring out the AHL at the end of last season and I think we're going to see him do very well next season as the Marlies start really relying on him more
 

stickty111

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I'd go Sandin as top prospect

Best year Robertson (although Sandin doing as well as he did for the Leafs deserves consideration)

Upside Robertson (although Sandin is arguable again)

Offensive skills to Abruzzese (SDA and Bracco certainly have an argument)

Skater is Hollowell imo

Defense is Liljegren (Lindgren also has an argument)

Compete is definitely Robertson imo

Smarts I'm going SDA (we do have a lot of high IQ prospects though imo)

Underrated is Abramov to me (I think he's our 4th best prospect)

A player i could see doing really well next season is Hollowell, he seemed to be figuring out the AHL at the end of last season and I think we're going to see him do very well next season as the Marlies start really relying on him more
Can't say I completely disagree with any of it. All though the SDA for IQ surprises me.

I also think Hollowell could take a huge step if given an opportunity. I'm worried he gets caught in the numbers game though. He has all the tools. Skating, offensive tools and instincts, and high IQ. Can he put it into performance?
 
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SeaOfBlue

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Can't say I completely disagree with any of it. All though the SDA for IQ surprises me.

I also think Hollowell could take a huge step if given an opportunity. I'm worried he gets caught in the numbers game though. He has all the tools. Skating, offensive tools and instincts, and high IQ. Can he put it into performance?

Really comes down to Moore. Hollowell and Duszak were both giving a fair amount of opportunities once Harpur and Schmaltz were dealt, but who really knows with him. Lindgren should have been playing a lot more and he did not so... However, he is in the top 8 next year so that means he should be getting into quite a few games, and I imagine everyone is going to be given a fair amount of ice time since they are all young, developing defensemen with skill.
 
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SeaOfBlue

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Greenway seems to be a quality skater. I still can't think of an example an NHL draft pick switching colleges then making it in the NHL. I guess there could be a first time. His brother Jordan is in the NHL and is a bit of an ugly skater. Anyone who remembers the Leafs' 2003 2nd round pick John Doherty can see the similarities: a mobile big kid who has trouble reading the game. He's still only 22. Edit: I bet if the Leafs don't sign him to an ELC next summer, some other NHL team will. NHL teams like to take flyers on big mobile defensemen and they also like when the player has a brother already in the league.

Not that they made the NHL, but Johnny Tychonik (2nd round pick 2018) and Jay O'Brien (1st round pick 2018) have both transferred. So it's not like great prospects do not transfer, and it is not always the end of the world.

In Greenway's case, apparently it was academic issues (and "other things") that prevented him from playing in the first 21 NCAA games of his sophomore year, not playing ability. Sure he did not put up a ton of points, but he was never really a big points guy in the first place, and he was praised for his defensive ability as a Freshman despite having limited experience back there (he only started playing defense at like 14 or 15 years old or something like that) and needing some more refinement.

Personally, I find the entire thing to be a little bit fishy, because the OHL was an option for Greenway if academics were not his thing, and academics were not an issue in his Freshman year at Wisconsin, nor his first year at Maine. In fact, he was slated to go to the OHL, but Flint was a disaster at the time and his USDP head coach, Don Granato, convinced him to join him and his brother (Tony Granato, the new head coach) in Wisconsin instead... And let's not pretend that he could not have forced Flint to trade him to another team if he really wanted to go to the OHL. However, Don left after one year to be an assistant coach in the NHL, and after that things went down hill for Wisconsin and pretty much all of its players. Tony was the Big10 Coach of the Year in his first year as Head Coach in Wisconsin, but had three consecutive losing seasons and has had numerous NHL prospects underperform under his watch after his brother left. I think Greenway was no different. He could not mesh with the remaining coaching staff and made the smart decision to leave after the guy who recruited him left. Happens all the time in the NCAA sports. He even went as far as saying he was "relieved" to be able to leave go elsewhere.

Either way, it does not really affect Greenway as a pro prospect. He won't have to worry about college papers and exams, and not excelling in those areas does not make you stupid (just like excelling in those areas does not make you smart). My concern with him are the defensive IQ and puck handling skills that troubled him when he was first drafted. I've watched a few highlight packages and he has had some bad giveaways or poor defensive reads... Although keep in mind that those packages are showing when he gives up a goal against and that if I watched a highlight package of the best defensive players out there, the exact same things will happen to them. In general though, he is trusted to play PK minutes and is often going out there against other teams' top players, was able to put up double digit points despite not being given many offensive opportunities (all 10 of his points came at ES; the highest in the NCAA last year was 22), and all the while was able to put up a +5 (which, despite people not liking to use +/-, is really good for someone in that role), there is some promise there. I am not usually a fan of prospects who have IQ issues, and I would often avoid drafting them, but if Greenway can put up 15-20 points next year (especially if they all come at ES) and shows some more growth in his defensive game, I would imagine the Leafs give him a shot on an ELC. It would only be for 2 years and there should be some room in the 2021-2022 lineup, depending on what happens with Kokkonen, Hoefenmayer and the upcoming drafts/UFA periods. O'Connell and Koster are the only other LD prospects in our system right now and both should be in the NCAA in 2021-2022, and even Kokkonen has played quite a bit of RD recently.

Greenway and Rasanen are going to be the two big headlines when it comes to handing out ELC's. Both of them are huge defensemen with upside, but bumpy development paths who need a big year to earn an ELC before their rights expire. Kara and Abruzzese are the other two, given they could earn ELC's next year as well, but their rights do not expire.
 

SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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End of year prospect Awards
Top Prospect
-Timothy Liljegren
You could make the case for Sandin, and I wouldn’t totally disagree with it, but Liljegren has the same top pair upside, and has grown really well.

Prospect of the year
-Nicholas Robertson
This is the only one which I can say nobody but him deserved it. Many prospects had great seasons, but what Robertson did this season is simply amazing, and turned himself into an elite prospect.

Highest Upside
-Rasmus Sandin
There were contenders in Roberson and maybe Liljegren, but Sandin’s development has taken a major boom since being drafted. The steps he has taken have been remarkable, and he isn’t even scratching the surface of what he could become. His upside is a true #1 defenseman who can drive play, and give you major minutes in every situation.

Best Offensive skills(non Shot)
-SDA
I made a different section for skills and shot because I feel like it would be unfair to some prospects. I don’t think it’s fair to knock a 5 shot grade prospect if his skills are only 3 or something, and vice versa. I had thoughts about this one between SDA and Bracco. They are both passing wizards and truly elite playmakers. I went with SDA though because I feel like SDA’s skills show up on even strength more than it does for Bracco. Maybe it’s the wrong way to look at things, but I do value high even strength production highly. Despite Bracco’s high point totals in the AHL, it is a fair argument his passes show up more on the PP.

Best Shot
-Nicholas Robertson
This one goes without saying

Best Skater
-Mac Hollowell
I didn’t have much debate on this one either. His skating is fantastic in every way. Speed, agility, edgework, escapability, Hollowell has all of it.

Defense
-Mikko Kokkonen
I had thoughts of Lilljegren, but Kokkonen has been regarded as an advanced defensive player for his age, and is NHL ready in terms of defensive play. His awareness of what to do in each situation is terrific.

Compete
-Nicholas Robertson
Again don’t need to explain this

Hockey IQ/Smarts-
Nick Abruzzese
The good thing about the Leafs system is that there are many high IQ players. From Kokkonen, to Holmberg, to Sandin, Lilljegren among others, but I am giving to Abruzzese. He has a lot of skill, but his points come from because he is extremely smart. Scouts really like his smarts, and the way he studies the game well.

Most Underrated Prospect-
Jesper Lindgren
I am going to continue on this train. He has had steady development throughout his career, and was one of the better defensemen for the Marlies this season, and if he can stay healthy, he should receive an NHL call up sooner rather than later.

Prospect who took the biggest step-
Nicholas Robertson
Honestly, you could give this to Abramov or Abruzzese, but unprecedented goal scoring and growth after his draft year, I can’t give it to anyone else

Prospect who could take the biggest step-
Mikko Kokkonen
This one might surprise some, but his game is so well rounded and translatable that I wouldn’t be surprised he establishes himself as a great defenseman in Liiga, and his 2nd half was really good this season.

Do you agree @SeaOfBlue and @Kiwi?

More or less agree. One thing I would add is Abramov as the best two-way/defensive forward. His gaudy offensive numbers overshadow the fact that he was a solid defensive forward for Victoriaville as well, and was even able to get a short-handed goal (and I believe he had a few short-handed assists too).

And if I could also add biggest disappointment, it goes to the goalies. Scott was hurt the entire year (not his fault, but still disappointing) and Woll was super inconsistent. One night he could shut down everything, and others he looked like he has never played goalie before. However, he was in his first pro year, and while the team in front of him was consistent, it was not in a good way. So plenty of hope for both of the goalies yet.
 
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stickty111

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More or less agree. One thing I would add is Abramov as the best two-way/defensive forward. His gaudy offensive numbers overshadow the fact that he was a solid defensive forward for Victoriaville as well, and was even able to get a short-handed goal (and I believe he had a few short-handed assists too).

And if I could also add biggest disappointment, it goes to the goalies. Scott was hurt the entire year (not his fault, but still disappointing) and Woll was super inconsistent. One night he could shut down everything, and others he looked like he has never played goalie before. However, he was in his first pro year, and while the team in front of him was consistent, it was not in a good way. So plenty of hope for both of the goalies yet.
Yup I agree on Abramov.

I didn't list an award foe goalies because there are really only 2, so tough to come up with an award.
I thoughts about putting a disappointing category, but it's not really an award so decided against it:laugh:
 

stickty111

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Really comes down to Moore. Hollowell and Duszak were both giving a fair amount of opportunities once Harpur and Schmaltz were dealt, but who really knows with him. Lindgren should have been playing a lot more and he did not so... However, he is in the top 8 next year so that means he should be getting into quite a few games, and I imagine everyone is going to be given a fair amount of ice time since they are all young, developing defensemen with skill.
I don't trust Moore on this until he proves otherwise, so I guess we'll see.
 
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