Marchand is currently top 5 for the Hart. Change my Mind.

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I do have a question why more value isnt put on 5 tool players in hockey

I understand a guy like mcdavid is pretty to watch... but does he excel in his own zone? Is he world class penalty killer... or known as a leader? Plays physical? Do we have proof he makes his linemates better or is Edmonton always struggling to find linemates?

Hes a one dimensional scorer... who isnt even leading the league in scoring

Crosby... kane... mackinnon... hall... very very very skiller scorers

But are these 5 tool guys?

Is that all it takes to be called best player in nhl... just score the same points as marchand but not come close to being as all rounded player?

 

[PB37]

I do have a question why more value isnt put on 5 tool players in hockey

I understand a guy like mcdavid is pretty to watch... but does he excel in his own zone? Is he world class penalty killer... or known as a leader? Plays physical? Do we have proof he makes his linemates better or is Edmonton always struggling to find linemates?

Hes a one dimensional scorer... who isnt even leading the league in scoring

Crosby... kane... mackinnon... hall... very very very skiller scorers

But are these 5 tool guys?

Is that all it takes to be called best player in nhl... just score the same points as marchand but not come close to being as all rounded player?

Crosby is very much a 5 tool player.

 

[3rdLiner]

Crosby is very much a 5 tool player.

Same with McDavid. Don't have to play too much defense if you always go straight to offense.

 

[Ocoee]

Here is my view of Marchand. He is very effective and scores a lot but he does a lot of dumb things. He is like James Neal with Pittsburgh. Very effective but does so many stupid things that it takes away from the great player he is.

 

[Prairie Habs]

I do have a question why more value isnt put on 5 tool players in hockey

I understand a guy like mcdavid is pretty to watch... but does he excel in his own zone? Is he world class penalty killer... or known as a leader? Plays physical? Do we have proof he makes his linemates better or is Edmonton always struggling to find linemates?

Hes a one dimensional scorer... who isnt even leading the league in scoring

Crosby... kane... mackinnon... hall... very very very skiller scorers

But are these 5 tool guys?

Is that all it takes to be called best player in nhl... just score the same points as marchand but not come close to being as all rounded player?

Ever heard of Maroon? Drai?

Also, just because you question whether or not he is good defensively doesn't make him bad defensively. He's actually pretty solid and has the puck so much it wouldn't even matter if he wasn't.

 

[piteus]

I do have a question why more value isnt put on 5 tool players in hockey

I understand a guy like mcdavid is pretty to watch... but does he excel in his own zone? Is he world class penalty killer... or known as a leader? Plays physical? Do we have proof he makes his linemates better or is Edmonton always struggling to find linemates?

Hes a one dimensional scorer... who isnt even leading the league in scoring

Crosby... kane... mackinnon... hall... very very very skiller scorers

But are these 5 tool guys?

Is that all it takes to be called best player in nhl... just score the same points as marchand but not come close to being as all rounded player?

Is Marchand a leader? Players who are leaders don't intentionally try to hurt opponents ... and putting his teammates in vulnerable positions. You can't miss games for acting like an idiot.

Leaders can't be mental midgets on the ice.

 

[3rdLiner]

Is Marchand a leader? Players who are leaders don't intentionally try to hurt opponents ... and putting his teammates in vulnerable positions. You can't miss games for acting like an idiot.

Leaders can't be mental midgets on the ice.

Marchand is very much an on ice leader for the team. He has some weird ability to just go turn it on, get dirty (sometimes obviously this has negative effects), get in it with other team's "star" etc... He can ignite a bench as good as anyone in the league. He's an on the ice leader, that is for sure.

 

[GodEmperor]

No chance this selfish POS wins it.

I'd rather it go to someone like Hall, Mac or McDavid.

Even if you disagree that he is very dirty, his suspensions cost the team and this is not Hart caliber.

 

[SourTemplePilot]

Will never win the Hart. Not even close!!

 

[3rdLiner]

Will never win the Hart. Not even close!!

Maybe not this year, but if he puts together a 40g, 60a, 100pt season with the rest of his game (minus getting suspended) it'd be really hard to argue against.

 

[TMLeafs17]

He won’t win it this year, but he’s been unreal and would've probably finished top 5 in voting had he played the whole season.

 

[rocketdan9]

He won’t win it this year, but he’s been unreal and would've probably finished top 5 in voting had he played the whole season.

Definitely

Clutch player too

 

[bb_fan]

So little appreciation for his rwo way game and pk'ing with the offense....

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

No chance this selfish POS wins it.

I'd rather it go to someone like Hall, Mac or McDavid.

Even if you disagree that he is very dirty, his suspensions cost the team and this is not Hart caliber.

Id feel bad for anyone that said he isnt dirty. Id wager money his own family knows hes dirty. But lots of great players were dirty

Gordie howe had a rep for being me elbow

Mark messier would take alot of cheap shots

Bobby clarke and stan mikita were super ratty

I think where its fair to criticize marchand is some of his stuff doesnt seem to be aimed at winning the game... some of it comes close to just being anti social.

I hope weve seen the worst of that, and he doesnt enter sean avery/matt cooke/raffi torres/steve downie territory of self destruction

Theres always been some dirty players who are more successful because they are dirty... claude lemieux... scott stevens... pat verbeek... ulf samuelsson

But got to keep it focused to help the team

 

[Fataldogg]

My top 5 would be MacKinnon, Hall, Ovechkin, Kucherov and Malkin.

If it was up to me, my final three would be MacKinnon, Hall and Ovechkin.

Kucherov and Malkin are something else, but those guys are on absolutely stacked rosters. Always find it more impressive when a single player is carrying his team to the playoffs.

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

"Change my mind" threads need to stop.

Not only is it obnoxious, but the OP usually backs up their opinion with nothing making them look ignorant.

I posted this on Thursday man

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

Nope. Too far down the points list. Can't be a Hart finalist as a forward if you're outside the top 10 in scoring. And yes, that counts far more than the "but his team didn't make the playoffs" argument, which sucks, IMO.

In relation to the OP, you can't say that Boston's resurgence is only because of Marchand as you implied. He's a big part of it of course, but the emergence of a pile of depth players who are far better than expected at this stage has to be considered a much bigger factor.

This wasn't said, nor was it implied. All I said was that it coincided suggesting that there was a link. Making a logical leap like that is pretty strange to say the least

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

I’m a narcissist, see if you can change my mind.





Pro Tip: You can’t!

This entire thread is filled with really dumb jokes like this. People give their arguments, I explain why I don't agree and give a counterargument, and then all you see are people accusing me of being ignorant/dumb. This board is toxic as hell, especially when Marchand gets brought up, so I guess I shouldn't have expected to get a decent conversation out of it.

 

[GodEmperor]

Id feel bad for anyone that said he isnt dirty. Id wager money his own family knows hes dirty. But lots of great players were dirty

Gordie howe had a rep for being me elbow

Mark messier would take alot of cheap shots

Bobby clarke and stan mikita were super ratty

I think where its fair to criticize marchand is some of his stuff doesnt seem to be aimed at winning the game... some of it comes close to just being anti social.

I hope weve seen the worst of that, and he doesnt enter sean avery/matt cooke/raffi torres/steve downie territory of self destruction

Theres always been some dirty players who are more successful because they are dirty... claude lemieux... scott stevens... pat verbeek... ulf samuelsson

But got to keep it focused to help the team

The utility of being "dirty" was that the game was different back then and that it happened to everyone.

Nowadays, there is no utility (due to penalties, suspensions and tons of cameras) so citing past players who were good and dirty doesn't make a strong argument.

 

[puckIuck]

Marchand should be banned from the NHL. It doesn't matter if he's skilled he's a dangerous cheap shot artist who will end someone's career one day. What's worse about his cheap shots than Matt cooke's or Raffi Torres is how he tries to play them off as unintentional. It's too bad the NHL will only act after he seriously injures a star player.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let's be honest: let's say Marchand actually deserved the Hart, which is doesn't at all. The top-3 are clearly Kucherov, Malkin and MacKinnon right now. But let's say he did deserve to be a finalist, do you really think the voters for the Hart would vote for Marchand for the Hart with the kind of reputation he has? Marchand was suspended for 5 games earlier this year and is a genuine piece of **** on the ice (don't know about off the ice). Do you really think enough voters would vote for him, even if he deserved it?

Any award that isn't purely statistical has some biases based on reputations. Look at Nick Lidstrom's Norris in 2011, which IIRC was extremely undeserved. You could argue that Crosby's 2016 Smythe falls into this category too. The Selke is similar where the same 3 players constantly get voted for it, regardless of how they do in a season. With Marchand being a huge POS, do you really think the NHL would vote for him for any sort of award? I just don't see it.

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

Let's be honest: let's say Marchand actually deserved the Hart, which is doesn't at all. The top-3 are clearly Kucherov, Malkin and MacKinnon right now. But let's say he did deserve to be a finalist, do you really think the voters for the Hart would vote for Marchand for the Hart with the kind of reputation he has? Marchand was suspended for 5 games earlier this year and is a genuine piece of **** on the ice (don't know about off the ice). Do you really think enough voters would vote for him, even if he deserved it?

Any award that isn't purely statistical has some biases based on reputations. Look at Nick Lidstrom's Norris in 2011, which IIRC was extremely undeserved. You could argue that Crosby's 2016 Smythe falls into this category too. The Selke is similar where the same 3 players constantly get voted for it, regardless of how they do in a season. With Marchand being a huge POS, do you really think the NHL would vote for him for any sort of award? I just don't see it.

Reputation/Voter bias is a dumb/weak argument when discussing a player’s value. I’ve said It earlier in the thread but it’s not acceptable in this theoretical

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

Marchand should be banned from the NHL. It doesn't matter if he's skilled he's a dangerous cheap shot artist who will end someone's career one day. What's worse about his cheap shots than Matt cooke's or Raffi Torres is how he tries to play them off as unintentional. It's too bad the NHL will only act after he seriously injures a star player.

Anytime someone shares this take I immediately know they’ve never played hockey in their life

 

[Empoleon8771]

Reputation/Voter bias is a dumb/weak argument when discussing a player’s value. I’ve said It earlier in the thread but it’s not acceptable in this theoretical

The discussion wasn't about a player's value, it was about him winning the Hart. The only thing that determines whether Marchand is worthy of the Hart is whether he gets voted for it. Based on his reputation, I don't see any way that happens. It doesn't matter if he's "worthy", him being a POS eliminates any chance of him ever winning a Hart. That invalidates the entire thread.

 

[SunDevilHockeyFan]

The discussion wasn't about a player's value, it was about him winning the Hart. The only thing that determines whether Marchand is worthy of the Hart is whether he gets voted for it. Based on his reputation, I don't see any way that happens. It doesn't matter if he's "worthy", him being a POS eliminates any chance of him ever winning a Hart. That invalidates the entire thread.

Not only is that not true, but it’s also a really dumb statement. The Hart Trophy is the trophy for most valuable player. This conversation is about his value to the team and as a player not about his value to the voters and those who are biased against him. Everyone who just sits there and moans about him being “dirty” in this conversation are so thickheaded and insufferable. Take It somewhere else