OT: March Madness Thread

[Jtown]

The NCAA is the most corrupt organization in the world, besides FIFA. There is no arguing it.

would you mind elaborating on this?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

The NCAA is the most corrupt organization in the world, besides FIFA. There is no arguing it.

I don't think corrupt is the right word. Inconsistent might be more accurate.

 

[YEM]

JTown is absolutely right about the NCAA monies
& I'm a big John Oliver fan but he's off a bit there

the NCAA being corrupt stuff likely refers to their "rules" & punishments & stuff, I presume

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

There are manyproblems withthe NCAA. But please tell me how my post is so wrong.

Let's just focus on your scholarship rant.

Football and basketball players are used to make the schools money. The students are often given BS classes (watch the video for the great example of Swahili) and they leave the universities with very little education because so much of their time is spent training/playing their sports. Very few student-athletes on athletic scholarships are actual students.

The cost to fund four years of these football/basketball students to play for the universities is significantly less than the money that the schools earn from them. After four years, many of these students have nothing to show for their committment because, as you noted, most wouldn't have been given the opportunity for a university education without the athletic scholarship. One of the biggest problems with the NCAA is that many of the students who attend the schools on athletic scholarships aren't getting an education anyway.

 

[YEM]

Football and basketball players are used to make the schools money.

Very few student-athletes on athletic scholarships are actual students.

The cost to fund four years of funding these football/basketball students to play for the universities is significantly less that the money that the schools earn from them.

yr right about this for some schools, but these statements do not apply for the large majority of schools who participate in these sports

example; there are 351 Division I Men's Basketball schools
the overwhelming majority are much more like Robert Morris (playing tonight in the tourny) rather than Kentucky (NBA developmental team)

 

[Jtown]

Let's just focus on your scholarship rant.

Football and basketball players are used to make the schools money. The students are often given BS classes (watch the video for the great example of Swahili) and they leave the universities with very little education because so much of their time is spent training/playing their sports. Very few student-athletes on athletic scholarships are actual students.

The cost to fund four years of funding these football/basketball students to play for the universities is significantly less that the money that the schools earn from them. After four years, many of these students have nothing to show for their committment because, as you noted, most wouldn't have been given the opportunity for a university education without the athletic scholarship. One of the biggest problems with the NCAA is that many of the students who attend the schools on athletic scholarships aren't getting an education anyway.

are you Fing kidding me. There are about 20 football programs at any given time that are bringing in a profit. The rest are losing money big time. Understand that programs like ALABAMA and NOTRE DAME are the Exception and that teams like temple, central michigan, wymoing , and north texas are the standard.

And don't get me started on BBALL. There are only 5 programs that make a profit at any given time. Manyjust try to break even.

The reason why students are given BS classes is because they are there only for their athletic ability. Maybe that athletic ability will lead to a professional career maybe it won't , but it beats the alternative of graduating high school and then having to go into a labor job with no college accolades to increase your job position.

Athletes that are educated take real courses and get real degrees. If you take athletics out of the picture they still go to college and get degrees. Athletes that are uneducated but get athletic scholarships get a chance at a real education as well as a shot a professional career as oppose to never getting the college experience at all.

The reason why i quit athletics is because it is so hard to have a normal college experience like parties and girlfriends while doing athletics. Not because i was forced to take home ec. If you are a d 1 football player and you want a real education, you can do it. The problem is, you will have nothing else in your life. It will literally be sports and academics.

 

[Jtown]

yr right about this for some schools, but these statements do not apply for the large majority of schools who participate in these sports

example; there are 351 Division I Men's Basketball schools
the overwhelming majority are much more like Robert Morris (playing tonight in the tourny) rather than Kentucky (NBA developmental team)

and thats just men's D1. What about women's bball, and division 2 and 3.

people forget about these sports. Go checkout your alumni's softball game. Tell me how many people show up and what the ticket prices are . Then tell me what type of tv contract those teams are getting. Then tell me how do they afford coaching, equpitment, travel, scholarships, meal plans, ncaa complicance officers , athletic trainers etc etc etc.

 

[Coffe]

The NCAA is the most corrupt organization in the world, besides FIFA. There is no arguing it.

The IOC has a horse in that race as well.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

are you Fing kidding me. There are about 20 football programs at any given time that are bringing in a profit. The rest are losing money big time. Understand that programs like ALABAMA and NOTRE DAME are the Exception and that teams like temple, central michigan, wymoing , and north texas are the standard.

And don't get me started on BBALL. There are only 5 programs that make a profit at any given time. Manyjust try to break even.

You're the one saying that it costs $80K-$120K per year to educate, board, and train these athletes. It's not Temple or Wyoming, or Division II and III schools spending that money, that's for sure.

The reason why students are given BS classes is because they are there only for their athletic ability. Maybe that athletic ability will lead to a professional career maybe it won't , but it beats the alternative of graduating high school and then having to go into a labor job with no college accolades to increase your job position.

Does it? Because many of these student-athletes just go into the labour force 1-4 years later with no education to speak of, anyway.

And a very small percentage even have a shot at a professional sports career, including football players from schools like Alabama and Ohio State.

Athletes that are educated take real courses and get real degrees. If you take athletics out of the picture they still go to college and get degrees. Athletes that are uneducated but get athletic scholarships get a chance at a real education as well as a shot a professional career as oppose to never getting the college experience at all.

Many don't get a real chance at an education, though. That's the point. They're at the school to play football/basketball; that's it. And, again, very few have a legitmate shot at a pro career.

The reason why i quit athletics is because it is so hard to have a normal college experience like parties and girlfriends while doing athletics. Not because i was forced to take home ec. If you are a d 1 football player and you want a real education, you can do it. The problem is, you will have nothing else in your life. It will literally be sports and academics.

You're lucky that your time on campus wasn't predicated by the fact that you had to play your sport. Those athletes on sports scholarships (that wouldn't be there otherwise) don't have that option. And it's not the classes that are taking their time away.

yr right about this for some schools, but these statements do not apply for the large majority of schools who participate in these sports

example; there are 351 Division I Men's Basketball schools
the overwhelming majority are much more like Robert Morris (playing tonight in the tourny) rather than Kentucky (NBA developmental team)

and thats just men's D1. What about women's bball, and division 2 and 3.

people forget about these sports. Go checkout your alumni's softball game. Tell me how many people show up and what the ticket prices are . Then tell me what type of tv contract those teams are getting. Then tell me how do they afford coaching, equpitment, travel, scholarships, meal plans, ncaa complicance officers , athletic trainers etc etc etc.

Here's a USA Today list of NCAA revenue and expenses

These schools bring in big dollars and it's not just the top few.

The schools spend what they earn because they're supposed to be not-for-profits, so they aren't supposed to have a surplus. It helps the other programs when they can distribute some of that revenue to other sports.

Are you seriously arguing that only a handful of schools brings in tons of revenue from the student-athletes?

 

[Jtown]

You're the one saying that it costs $80K-$120K per year to educate, board, and train these athletes. It's not Temple or Wyoming, or Division II and III schools spending that money, that's for sure.



Does it? Because many of these student-athletes just go into the labour force 1-4 years later with no education to speak of, anyway.

And a very small percentage even have a shot at a professional sports career, including football players from schools like Alabama and Ohio State.



Many don't get a real chance at an education, though. That's the point. They're at the school to play football/basketball; that's it. And, again, very few have a legitmate shot at a pro career.



You're lucky that your time on campus wasn't predicated by the fact that you had to play your sport. Those athletes on sports scholarships (that wouldn't be there otherwise) don't have that option. And it's not the classes that are taking their time away.





Here's a USA Today list of NCAA revenue and expenses

These schools bring in big dollars and it's not just the top few.

The schools spend what they earn because they're supposed to be not-for-profits, so they aren't supposed to have a surplus. It helps the other programs when they can distribute some of that revenue to other sports.

Are you seriously arguing that only a handful of schools brings in tons of revenue from the student-athletes?

ARe we talking revenue or are we talking profits?

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...orts-profits-money-schools-revenues-subsidies

20 public schools are profiting.

 

[YEM]

Are you seriously arguing that only a handful of schools brings in tons of revenue from the student-athletes?

the distinction between revenue and profit is quite important
ask anyone involved in business, ever
you also neglect to account for the direction that "revenue" flows->which is to the other athletic programs that bleed money every year...

Many don't get a real chance at an education, though. That's the point. They're at the school to play football/basketball; that's it. And, again, very few have a legitmate shot at a pro career.

frankly, this is total BS based on nothing concrete whatsoever

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

ARe we talking revenue or are we talking profits?

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...orts-profits-money-schools-revenues-subsidies

20 public schools are profiting.

the distinction between revenue and profit is quite important
ask anyone involved in business, ever
you also neglect to account for the direction that "revenue" flows->which is to the other athletic programs that bleed money every year...

As I noted above the NCAA is supposed to be not-for-profit, so surpluses are re-distributed to other sports.

I specifically talked about revenue over profit. The schools are forced to spend what they earn, so talking about profit is not really relevant here.

frankly, this is total BS based on nothing concrete whatsoever

There is plenty of evidence if you look for it. ESPN article.

"What really is happening is that athletes are being funneled into the majors of least resistance," said Oklahoma professor Gerald Gurney, president of The Drake Group, an NCAA watchdog. "They really, based on their athletic commitment, do not have an opportunity to pursue an education at all, much less a world-class education."

"I think what you see at UNC, at Syracuse, at Notre Dame is that marginal students are being forced to commit academic dishonesty or the universities are joining them in an effort to keep them eligible and retaining them," Gurney said. "I'm sure that's not what Mark Emmert wants to hear, but it's the truth."

Edit: Jtown, did you even read the article you quoted?

 

[YEM]

I specifically talked about revenue over profit. The schools are forced to spend what they earn, so talking about profit is not really relevant here.

so what's yr problem?

There is plenty of evidence if you look for it.

that is not evidence for yr prior assertion

 

[Jtown]

As I noted above the NCAA is supposed to be not-for-profit, so surpluses are re-distributed to other sports.

I specifically talked about revenue over profit. The schools are forced to spend what they earn, so talking about profit is not really relevant here.



There is plenty of evidence if you look for it. ESPN article.



Edit: Jtown, did you even read the article you quoted?

I did. And there might be some truth to it, and there might not be. Reagardless it won't change anything when it comes to college athletic exploitation. Get all the extra loose change around public schools. And football players and bball players might get a couple thousand each per season. Spread that to all athletes and we are talking about 20 bucks a head.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

so what's yr problem?

My problem is that the athletes are being used to bring in hundreds of millions of dollars on the presumption that they'll either become professional athetes and/or leave the university with a credible degree... when often they leave with a useless degree and no shot at the pros.

that is not evidence for yr prior assertion

Which assertion? That the athletes are getting **** degrees and little actual education? Yes it is.

Many athletic scholarship students are brought in to play sports and given joke classes so they stay eligible, which is what that article is talking about.

 

[Sniped]

Am I an idiot for thinking Kentucky will win it all, the popular answer is usually never right, lol.

I got Kentucky vs Nova. GO NOVA.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

would you mind elaborating on this?

Gladly.

I'll preface it with i'm not talking about the non money making sports. This is the meat and bones of the problem, football and basketball. Also, watching the South Park episode regarding the NCAA is a great tool to show how ridiculous the NCAA is. I'll start off saying that I attend Drexel and our one "big" sport is Basketball. We haven't made the tournament since the 90's. I've had a number of classes with players on the basketball team. And do you know how many times i've actually seen them in class? In the five years i've been there I can count on my two hands how many times i've actually seen them in class. I am not saying that all student-athletes attend class as little as they do but I have been in five or six classes with basketball players and I saw them the first class and don't see them again until exam time. Drexel's basketball coach spoke during my class once and essentially said school doesn't matter to the athletes. During his time with UMASS and John Calipari he said that the players didn't see the class room for a month when they were in the tournament. It is essentially impossible to get an education and be an athlete at the same time. They're not getting a real education.

Drexel isn't a money making basketball program, yet the athletes aren't getting that education that you and the NCAA claim they are getting. The education doesn't matter to a lot of them or to the school. They are there to play basketball or football. Case and point, Cardale Jones, Ohio State's QB, tweeted a few years ago "Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS." The NCAA hides behind the fact that they don't need to pay these athletes because they "get an education."

The NCAA and it's schools make tons and tons of money off of the athletes, you can pigeon hole it with it's only a few schools but it doesn't change the fact that the NCAA is corrupt. You keep pointing to profit but as CF88 has pointed out colleges are non-profit organizations, they're not allowed to keep money.

Two years ago Johnny Manziel produced $37,000,000 in media exposure for Texas A&M during one year, while A&M's in-state tuition was around $20,000. Seems fair to me? Not to mention Manziel isn't allowed to make any money off of his likeness, while prior to this past year the NCAA could trot out video games with a #2 White QB on a video game with stats that equated to his play on the field. The NCAA could sell #2 jerseys of Manziel but he can't even wash his car on campus without it being a violation. No really, a golfer a couple years ago was fined by the NCAA because she washed her car on campus. Athletes can't sign autograph's for money. The NCAA owns them. Athletic Director's get bonuses when an athlete at their school wins a championship. Just this past year Ohio State's AD got a $18,000 bonus because a athlete won a wrestling championship. What did the athlete get? Nothing.

 

[YEM]

Which assertion? That the athletes are getting **** degrees and little actual education? Yes it is.

Many athletic scholarship students are brought in to play sports and given joke classes so they stay eligible, which is what that article is talking about.

no
you said this: Many don't get a real chance at an education, though. That's the point. They're at the school to play football/basketball; that's it. And, again, very few have a legitmate shot at a pro career.

which is totally and completely invented BS
yr talking about kids at a small few places like UK & UNC when the reality is extremely different at the other 350+ Division I basketball schools.

It is essentially impossible to get an education and be an athlete at the same time.

that's a total myth
there are kids out there working & putting themselves through school
that's a hell of a lot harder than playing a sport

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Am I an idiot for thinking Kentucky will win it all, the popular answer is usually never right, lol.

I got Kentucky vs Nova. GO NOVA.

An idiot? No. It's conventional wisdom that they'll win. They're close to even money to win the championship in Vegas, which is crazy to me. I have Iowa State winning it all over Kentucky but I just wanted to change it up because everyone has Kentucky winning.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

no
you said this: Many don't get a real chance at an education, though. That's the point. They're at the school to play football/basketball; that's it. And, again, very few have a legitmate shot at a pro career.

which is totally and completely invented BS
yr talking about kids at a small few places like UK & UNC when the reality is extremely different at the other 350+ Division I basketball schools.

You're right in that this is not a problem in all schools.

You're absolute wrong in thinking that it's only a problem at a handful.

 

[Sniped]

An idiot? No. It's conventional wisdom that they'll win. They're close to even money to win the championship in Vegas, which is crazy to me. I have Iowa State winning it all over Kentucky but I just wanted to change it up because everyone has Kentucky winning.

Yeah, I have Iowa St. in the final four, I think my Nova bias has me thinking they'll go to the championship. May change it to Iowa St, not sure.

 

[Jtown]

Gladly.

I'll preface it with i'm not talking about the non money making sports. This is the meat and bones of the problem, football and basketball. Also, watching the South Park episode regarding the NCAA is a great tool to show how ridiculous the NCAA is. I'll start off saying that I attend Drexel and our one "big" sport is Basketball. We haven't made the tournament since the 90's. I've had a number of classes with players on the basketball team. And do you know how many times i've actually seen them in class? In the five years i've been there I can count on my two hands how many times i've actually seen them in class. I am not saying that all student-athletes attend class as little as they do but I have been in five or six classes with basketball players and I saw them the first class and don't see them again until exam time. Drexel's basketball coach spoke during my class once and essentially said school doesn't matter to the athletes. During his time with UMASS and John Calipari he said that the players didn't see the class room for a month when they were in the tournament. It is essentially impossible to get an education and be an athlete at the same time. They're not getting a real education.

Drexel isn't a money making basketball program, yet the athletes aren't getting that education that you and the NCAA claim they are getting. The education doesn't matter to a lot of them or to the school. They are there to play basketball or football. Case and point, Cardale Jones, Ohio State's QB, tweeted a few years ago "Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS." The NCAA hides behind the fact that they don't need to pay these athletes because they "get an education."

The NCAA and it's schools make tons and tons of money off of the athletes, you can pigeon hole it with it's only a few schools but it doesn't change the fact that the NCAA is corrupt. You keep pointing to profit but as CF88 has pointed out colleges are non-profit organizations, they're not allowed to keep money.

Two years ago Johnny Manziel produced $37,000,000 in media exposure for Texas A&M during one year, while A&M's in-state tuition was around $20,000. Seems fair to me? Not to mention Manziel isn't allowed to make any money off of his likeness, while prior to this past year the NCAA could trot out video games with a #2 White QB on a video game with stats that equated to his play on the field. The NCAA could sell #2 jerseys of Manziel but he can't even wash his car on campus without it being a violation. No really, a golfer a couple years ago was fined by the NCAA because she washed her car on campus. Athletes can't sign autograph's for money. The NCAA owns them. Athletic Director's get bonuses when an athlete at their school wins a championship. Just this past year Ohio State's AD got a $18,000 bonus because a athlete won a wrestling championship. What did the athlete get? Nothing.

Basketball programs usually have a set time for practice followed by strength and conditioning followed by a meal and or study hall. That is a huge block of time usually during the middle of the day and if a player has scheduled a class during that time they simply don't attend. It is as simple as that. If they don't attend that is there choice. That has nothing to do with the NCAA. It's also one of the reasons why i've always admired a coach like John Chaney who scheduled his practices at 530 am. That way it doesn't interfere with classes and you can't stay up late and get into trouble.

In terms of education, I'll say this. If it weren't for sports many of the athletes on football and basketball teams wouldn't be in college. They have no interest in pursuing a degree, and as a result they can take cupcake courses and play sports. If they weren't doing that they would be working labor jobs. There really is no way around this, and to be honest its not a problem. Everyone can go to college , but not everyone gets educated, you only get out what you put in. That can be said for all students. There are ample examples of high level athletes getting doctoral degrees. Look at Kyle Hornsby and Jay Bilas as examples. it can be done.

Once Again, the Ncaa and these schools are not making money off of these athletes, very few are profitable, and what little profitable sports there are are used to fund the rest of the athletic programs, which there are numerous of.

If johnny manziel wanted to make money off his name he could have easily done so. But he just wouldn't have had the ability to do at the ncaa level. He could've gone overseas to play football and made millions.... oh wait he couldn't. The only way to the nfl is through the NCAA. Sorry Johnny those are the rules. Thats just bad luck , to be so great at something and yet have very few job opportunities. Kind of like being the worlds greatest yo yo trickster. Congrats you're the greatest at that good luck making money.

Want to know why the wrestlers didn't get money... Title 9. hmm how are we going to spend this 18000 dollars. Lets devide it between the 15 wresters on the team, oh wait now we have to match dollar for dollar to womens athletics. 9000/15 = 600 dollars per athlete.

What do you think is a better way to spend that money. Give it to a wrestler for 600 dollars or reward your athletic director with a bonus for doing a good job and actually having one of the few jobs that brings money into the school.


Does the NCAA have a million stupid rules in place....hell yes. Does that make them corrupt ? Not in the least. Are they hiding millions and millions of dollars and swimming it in like Duck Tales? Hell no.

Let me tell you another story. When I applied to Grad School , i could only go if i got a GA position. After I got accepted i had to compete with other people for this GA position. I got tuition paid for but no stipend. the 10 other people who in my program who got GA positions were all former college scholarship athletes at that school. Every single one of the positions they got. They turned their athletic ability into not only into a free degree but also a masters degree with a stipend. Its not the ncaa's fault that some student athletes choose not to take their academic careers seriously. Those who do take it seriously can have so many doors open up for them .

 

[Pantokrator]

I always pick the team I want to lose the most to win the NCAA. I have only been right once, in 1993 with UNC. Every other year I have effectively cursed the team. I am hoping my curse works against Kentucky this year.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Want to know why the wrestlers didn't get money... Title 9. hmm how are we going to spend this 18000 dollars. Lets devide it between the 15 wresters on the team, oh wait now we have to match dollar for dollar to womens athletics. 9000/15 = 600 dollars per athlete.

My friend who ran track in the states would have killed for 600 dollars. He is Canadian and couldn't work because he was there for education. Plus he said nobody on his team had time for a job on top of school and athletics. He would work all summer here and then have to ration that money over the next 8-9 months. I am sure all the kids on that wrestling team would have felt the same way.

Also aren't you contradicting yourself saying "why not give that money to the AD that is actually making money for the program" and also saying the schools rarely make money

Edit: Also looking more into this site http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/ it counts scholarships as an expense. Which seems a little odd. If they didn't give that kid the scholarship they wouldn't be going to the school. I mean sure maybe the school is 100% totally full and another student was turned away to make room for that athlete, but I sort of doubt that happens often. Also a huge chunk of the expenses goes towards coaches salaries. Crazy that Balls State can pay it's coaches 8.5 million dollars a year but can't find a little money to throw the students way.

 

[Jtown]

My friend who ran track in the states would have killed for 600 dollars. He is Canadian and couldn't work because he was there for education. Plus he said nobody on his team had time for a job on top of school and athletics. He would work all summer here and then have to ration that money over the next 8-9 months. I am sure all the kids on that wrestling team would have felt the same way.

Also aren't you contradicting yourself saying "why not give that money to the AD that is actually making money for the program" and also saying the schools rarely make money

Edit: Also looking more into this site http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/ it counts scholarships as an expense. Which seems a little odd. If they didn't give that kid the scholarship they wouldn't be going to the school. I mean sure maybe the school is 100% totally full and another student was turned away to make room for that athlete, but I sort of doubt that happens often. Also a huge chunk of the expenses goes towards coaches salaries. Crazy that Balls State can pay it's coaches 8.5 million dollars a year but can't find a little money to throw the students way.

The reason why the AD is one of the few people at the school that brings in money is because sports is one of the few revenue generating aspects of a school. Does it mean it brings in enough revenue to offset its expenses? Hell no. But is that AD bringing in more money than say your Schools French Department, Latin Deparment, Art History Department.. you bet your Behind.

Scholarships are an expense because its a displacement of a paying student. If there is a dorm where athletes live lets say 200 rooms for 400 athletes. Those 400 athletes can live there for free whereas if there were no scholarships 400 paying students would live there. That could be a difference in about 20 million dollars per year.