Marc Bergevin: Tilting at Windmills Edition

[Habs Icing]

Other than Halak, have the Have ever sold high?

P.K.

 

[DAChampion]

P.K.

His value was high but they probably didn't take the best offer.

 

[ArtPeur]

How about the trade for Armia? Wasn't that a display of an iota of competence?


You just don't get it... Sorry.

Getting Armia, on any other team, would have been great. On the Habs, not so much. We have too many wingers. Unless:
- Armia impresses and become a top6 winger
- He's traded in a package for a top6 center/top 4dman
... it's a redundant move. Bergevin's last 3 "big" trades: Armia, Domi, Drouin. All wingers.

Mind you, if you go on and check the "build your lineup" thread, Armia is on the 4th line; Shaw is a sub. So yeah, crazy trade by Bergevin there. I've said, others have said it too, the Armia trade, in itself, isn't bad. In the whole picture though, it is.
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/build-your-habs-2018-19-line-up-goaltenders.2525529/

 

[Kent Nilsson]

Why is it important to get rid of those contracts before getting rid of guys like Petry though?

Right now Price and Weber will get almost nothing due to injury troubles, bad seasons and their contracts. It makes far more sense to wait, hope for a rebound season and then deal them.

Whereas a guy like Petry it at his peak value so we should trade him now when he's coming off a 40 point, rather then waiting in case he goes back to being a 25-30 point player.

What we get in return doesnt matter, MB should have been restrain ordered from trading a while ago anyway. By the time this team might get competitive again (very far from today) Price and Weber will be useless on the ice but very heavy anchors to this teams finances. Honestly I believe one day we will wish we had just waived both of them while it was still time.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

How about the trade for Armia? Wasn't that a display of an iota of competence?

Yaaayyyy ! MOAR 4th liners ! Go MB go !

 

[Bryson]

His value was high but they probably didn't take the best offer.

Your question is misleading because you mentioned Halak. The team definitely sold high on Halak as they did with Subban. But just like Subban, there's no way of knowing that Halak netted the best return since he was never shopped. Seems like Gauthier targeted the player he wanted and that was it.

Same with Bergevin, instead of publicly letting it be known that he was shopping Subban and create a bidding war which would have undoubtedly incited backlash from the fans, he chose to do a back alley deal. He could have just told fans that no player was untouchable if it was going to make the team better just like Poile just did. Of course that didn't happen and bergevin settled for less.

 

[Lshap]

What we get in return doesnt matter, MB should have been restrain ordered from trading a while ago anyway. By the time this team might get competitive again (very far from today) Price and Weber will be useless on the ice but very heavy anchors to this teams finances. Honestly I believe one day we will wish we had just waived both of them while it was still time.

Price's value will almost certainly be far higher next year. Not only will he likely rebound, but the perception of his contract will be mitigated by other goalies who'll be getting new contracts in 2019. In particular, Bobrovsky and Varlamov are UFAs next year -- the former may get close to Price's amount.

 

[CHfan1]

Price's value will almost certainly be far higher next year. Not only will he likely rebound, but the perception of his contract will be mitigated by other goalies who'll be getting new contracts in 2019. In particular, Bobrovsky and Varlamov are UFAs next year -- the former may get close to Price's amount.

Hopefully he rebounds. My fear, with the defense he has in front of him, is he faces more quality scoring chances, more odd man rushes, etc. So he may be playing better but it won’t show up in the stats column.

 

[yianik]

Galchenyuk can get 65 points , but not by playing a 200' game. If they let him cheat, he can do it, for sure. What will be important is to see what the net result is against opponents, not the point tally on its own.

When Galchenyuk scored 30, MON still lost two nearly out of every three games down the stretch that season, where he tallied more of his points. He and Pacioretty were cheating and neglecting the 200' game the whole time.

I find this a very interesting topic. As I recall. I believe your observations of Chucky are correct, and I'm only referring to Chucky as he was playing centre.

I guess my question is what type of play exactly defines a centre ?

I mean personally I like a guy who can play both ends of the ice. But if he cant , he not a legitimate centre ?

As an extreme, I look at Gretzky, and this is an extreme. He wasn't awful defensively but he did not have a good 200 foot game. But so what ? His line could generate 3-4 goals a game. They might have given up a lot of goals ( I read someplace Gretzky holds the record for most ES goals against with something close to 2300 ) but the positive was much, much greater than the negative.

But according to the Habs view, if you cant play a 200 foot game you are not a centre ( DD excepted ).

So there is only one Gretzky , but why is it if you have an offensive centre who is weak defensively, why is it not possible for him to be a centre if the overall positive outweighs the negative ?

Why is it that the reverse doesn't hold true ? I mean what if a guy is strong defensively but weak offensively, can he still be a centre on the top 6 ? MB reportedly went after Nick Bonino this summer, a 25 to 35 point player. I mean he wasn't going to play bottom 6 was he ? Why is he considered a good enough centre for us ?

Do real quarterbacks have to stay in the pocket ? Do they have to be able to scramble ? Does it matter as long as they are effective ?

MB said just because a guy can score 80 points doesn't mean he is a centre. Well okay, I agree. But if that player makes a positive overall contribution to the team when playing centre, why isnt he then ?

Absolutes are usually absolutely wrong. Just saying.

 

[Scriptor]

Your question is misleading because you mentioned Halak. The team definitely sold high on Halak as they did with Subban. But just like Subban, there's no way of knowing that Halak netted the best return since he was never shopped. Seems like Gauthier targeted the player he wanted and that was it.

Same with Bergevin, instead of publicly letting it be known that he was shopping Subban and create a bidding war which would have undoubtedly incited backlash from the fans, he chose to do a back alley deal. He could have just told fans that no player was untouchable if it was going to make the team better just like Poile just did. Of course that didn't happen and bergevin settled for less.

I could be wrong, but I believe that history is being rewritten a little. Wasn't Bergevin's quote that he wasn't shopping Subban, not that he would never trade Subban?

If that's the case, it's actually consistent with the Bergevin storyline that Molson and he had established that Subban wasn't an untouchable if someone offered up something worthwhile in return. It makes sense considering the contract they had just signed, him to with a NMC kicking in shortly, that they would have to, at least, come to a determination on that question.

Beyond that, Poile allegedly called Bergevin out of the blue, offering Weber for Subban, and Bergevin felt he couldn't refuse that offer. He hadn't been shopping Subban and wasn't looking to trade him at the time, though.

Regardless, those who were devastated by the loss of Subban will always be devastated by that loss. Those that were ecstatic that he was gone will always be ecstatic that he left. Those who can look at the deal more coldly, more removed from their emotions, will have a more pragmatic take on the transaction, even if they loved Subban for what Subban was.

Now, especially with the injuries to Weber, there can be no more pragmatic analysis of the move.

Yes, Bergevin would likely have had more if he had openly shopped Subban around (most definitely, IMO). The problem was that he liked Weber and that, most likely, the trade was presented as a take it or leave it offer. Shopping Subban around would have likely pulled the deal off the table. Subban would have known he wasn't wanted and, should a better deal than Weber not have come around (with Weber deal off the table now), keeping Subban with this in his mind would have been, IMO, bad for player and team morale.

 

[Peanut]

Is Chayka regarded as a weak, middling, or good GM?

I'd say he a mid tier still, a lot of dinosaurs like to come in and say he made bad trades but I don't see it. He finally went for it getting Stepan, and Raanta from the New York Rangers in exchange for Deangelo, and the 2017 7th overall draft pick(Lias Andersson). D core is pretty nice. They are an interesting team to watch a healthy Raanta can push them pretty far IMO.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/john-chayka-chronology.2087173/ Arizona has a good thread on his work so far.

He seems like one of those guys who loves to get value anywhere you can.

 

[Miller Time]

Price's value will almost certainly be far higher next year. Not only will he likely rebound, but the perception of his contract will be mitigated by other goalies who'll be getting new contracts in 2019. In particular, Bobrovsky and Varlamov are UFAs next year -- the former may get close to Price's amount.

I'm not so sure about that...

The next 2-3 big name goalies to sign UFA extensions will be telling, and could have an isolating effect on Price's current deal.

Price cashed in on a perfect storm of organizational & GM desperation. Varlamov won't touch anywhere near what Price got, and id be shocked if CBJ goes higher than 7-8M/year.

My bet is that Price remains the highest paid goalie for the next several years. Hopefully he can give us a run of Vezina/Hart worthy seasons in the process. Unfortunately, MB gave him a contract whereby that's the bar for it to be considered a good signing.

 

[Bryson]

Price's value will almost certainly be far higher next year. Not only will he likely rebound, but the perception of his contract will be mitigated by other goalies who'll be getting new contracts in 2019. In particular, Bobrovsky and Varlamov are UFAs next year -- the former may get close to Price's amount.

Two words for you...John...Gibson. It will be at least another decade before any goalie even comes close to making more than Carey Price. Five years later and Subban is still the highest paid defenseman in the league.

 

[DAChampion]

Your question is misleading because you mentioned Halak. The team definitely sold high on Halak as they did with Subban. But just like Subban, there's no way of knowing that Halak netted the best return since he was never shopped. Seems like Gauthier targeted the player he wanted and that was it.

Same with Bergevin, instead of publicly letting it be known that he was shopping Subban and create a bidding war which would have undoubtedly incited backlash from the fans, he chose to do a back alley deal. He could have just told fans that no player was untouchable if it was going to make the team better just like Poile just did. Of course that didn't happen and bergevin settled for less.

Halak netted an incredible return, as he was a goalie. Out of all the goalies traded in the past thirty years, the return that Gaithier got for Halak is top five .

 

[Bryson]

I could be wrong, but I believe that history is being rewritten a little. Wasn't Bergevin's quote that he wasn't shopping Subban, not that he would never trade Subban?

If that's the case, it's actually consistent with the Bergevin storyline that Molson and he had established that Subban wasn't an untouchable if someone offered up something worthwhile in return. It makes sense considering the contract they had just signed, him to with a NMC kicking in shortly, that they would have to, at least, come to a determination on that question.

Beyond that, Poile allegedly called Bergevin out of the blue, offering Weber for Subban, and Bergevin felt he couldn't refuse that offer. He hadn't been shopping Subban and wasn't looking to trade him at the time, though.

Regardless, those who were devastated by the loss of Subban will always be devastated by that loss. Those that were ecstatic that he was gone will always be ecstatic that he left. Those who can look at the deal more coldly, more removed from their emotions, will have a more pragmatic take on the transaction, even if they loved Subban for what Subban was.

Now, especially with the injuries to Weber, there can be no more pragmatic analysis of the move.

Yes, Bergevin would likely have had more if he had openly shopped Subban around (most definitely, IMO). The problem was that he liked Weber and that, most likely, the trade was presented as a take it or leave it offer. Shopping Subban around would have likely pulled the deal off the table. Subban would have known he wasn't wanted and, should a better deal than Weber not have come around (with Weber deal off the table now), keeping Subban with this in his mind would have been, IMO, bad for player and team morale.

Sportsnet’s Elliotte Friedman reported Saturday on Hockey Night in Canada that he spoke with Canadiens general manager Marc Bergevin, who said he will not be trading Subban.
Canadiens GM Bergevin says he won't trade P.K. Subban - Sportsnet.ca

@Runner77 put it more eloquently than I could but basically Poile did not all of a sudden decide to trade Weber in just two days nor was it a coincidence that Poile contact Bergevin just two days before Subban's NMC kicked in leaving bergevin very little time to maneuver, react or even shop Subban around for a better deal. Basically it was a well calculated deft move by Poile. He smelled blood in the water and went for the jugular. Also it's well known that bergevin was interested in moving Subban to acquire PLD from Edmonton but his ask was too high so instead we are left with a washed up over the hill cripple.

 

[groovejuice]

Galchenyuk can get 65 points , but not by playing a 200' game. If they let him cheat, he can do it, for sure. What will be important is to see what the net result is against opponents, not the point tally on its own.

When Galchenyuk scored 30, MON still lost two nearly out of every three games down the stretch that season, where he tallied more of his points. He and Pacioretty were cheating and neglecting the 200' game the whole time.

I'm one who believes that Galchenyuk will continue to improve his two-way game, picking up where he left off last season. Obviously, this relies on the Coyotes working with him, but it seems in their best interests to do so.

I don't believe the Habs have dedicated much energy or commitment to development under Bergevin, and IMO, just about any other destination would be a better one for young, skilled players.

 

[groovejuice]

Lots of inadvertant double posts today... Will we ever be free of server issues here?

 

[nhlfan9191]

Getting Armia, on any other team, would have been great. On the Habs, not so much. We have too many wingers. Unless:
- Armia impresses and become a top6 winger
- He's traded in a package for a top6 center/top 4dman
... it's a redundant move. Bergevin's last 3 "big" trades: Armia, Domi, Drouin. All wingers.

Mind you, if you go on and check the "build your lineup" thread, Armia is on the 4th line; Shaw is a sub. So yeah, crazy trade by Bergevin there. I've said, others have said it too, the Armia trade, in itself, isn't bad. In the whole picture though, it is.
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/build-your-habs-2018-19-line-up-goaltenders.2525529/

The Armia trade was good. He hasn’t played yet so we don’t know how he’ll play on our team, but I’m not to worried about that. It was a really solid trade, the only thing with it is it isn’t significant enough to move the needle that’s pointing heavily to Bergevin being a bad GM to go in the other direction. It may move it a little bit, but not by much. He needs more trades and acquisitions of substance whether it be threw FA, trades or drafting before he can start really start getting the needle to turn the other direction, and even then the last 6 years aren’t just erased. They make it that much harder for him to shift his image. The last 3 years to be more specific will follow him around like a bad odor.

 

[groovejuice]

The Armia trade was good. He hasn’t played yet so we don’t know how he’ll play on our team, but I’m not to worried about that. It was a really solid trade, the only thing with it is it isn’t significant enough to move the needle that’s pointing heavily to Bergevin being a bad GM to go in the other direction. It may move it a little bit, but not by much. He needs more trades and acquisitions of substance whether it be threw FA, trades or drafting before he can start really start getting the needle to turn the other direction, and even then the last 6 years aren’t just erased. They make it that much harder for him to shift his image. The last 3 years to be more specific will follow him around like a bad odor.

It's unrealistic to hope that Bergevin can do a 180° back to competence. It's not even a case of a leopard changing his spots. It's about an infant changing his own diaper.

 

[Bryson]

Galchenyuk can get 65 points , but not by playing a 200' game. If they let him cheat, he can do it, for sure. What will be important is to see what the net result is against opponents, not the point tally on its own.

When Galchenyuk scored 30, MON still lost two nearly out of every three games down the stretch that season, where he tallied more of his points. He and Pacioretty were cheating and neglecting the 200' game the whole time.

In this nice little scripted scenario (I see where you get your name from now) you fail to mention that when Galchenyuk scored 30 the team started playing for .500 which would have been enough to make it to the playoffs had they moved him to center sooner and this despite injuries to Subban, DD, Petry, Price etc..

Team set 100+ year old franchise record for best 10 game start with Galchenyuk at center. It's clear that his position at center had positive impact on the team.

Ask yourself what is the team's record with Galch as top 6 center? What do you have to say about Galchenyuk having a better Goals Against than Drouin, Gallagher and Pacioretty despite not being able to play a 200 ' game as you say.

 

[Rapala]

Lots of inadvertant double posts today... Will we ever be free of server issues here?

Some messages deserve reiteration!

This thread in particular.

 

[Sorinth]

Other than Halak, have the Habs ever sold high?

I would say Gorges and maybe Cole

 

[Sorinth]

What we get in return doesnt matter, MB should have been restrain ordered from trading a while ago anyway. By the time this team might get competitive again (very far from today) Price and Weber will be useless on the ice but very heavy anchors to this teams finances. Honestly I believe one day we will wish we had just waived both of them while it was still time.

You seem to be missing the point. You claimed they should traded BEFORE anyone else?

If the return is irrelevant and why does it matter whether we trade them tomorrow or in a year from now? Why is it important that we don't trade Petry until after they are traded?

 

[Rapala]

I would say Gorges and maybe Cole

John Kordic

 

[Lshap]

I'm not so sure about that...

The next 2-3 big name goalies to sign UFA extensions will be telling, and could have an isolating effect on Price's current deal.

Price cashed in on a perfect storm of organizational & GM desperation. Varlamov won't touch anywhere near what Price got, and id be shocked if CBJ goes higher than 7-8M/year.

My bet is that Price remains the highest paid goalie for the next several years. Hopefully he can give us a run of Vezina/Hart worthy seasons in the process. Unfortunately, MB gave him a contract whereby that's the bar for it to be considered a good signing.

You could be right. No way to know yet. Keep in mind Bobrovsky is currently earning $7.425M, so his next contract could bump him up in the $9M+ range (at least I hope so). If in a year the difference between Price and Bob shrinks to approx $1M, comparisons would be based on performance rather than insane cap hit.

As you said, a lot depends on the next round of goalie contracts.

Two words for you...John...Gibson. It will be at least another decade before any goalie even comes close to making more than Carey Price. Five years later and Subban is still the highest paid defenseman in the league.

Don't think it'll take nearly that long to match Price's salary, but I guess we'll see. Gibson isn't in the top tier, but Holtby is, and his contract is up in two years.

And Doughty has leapfrogged Subban, so you never know...