Marc Bergevin: Tilting at Windmills Edition

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Perrah

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Jul 2, 2009
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Anyone passing through Fredericton and wants some beer should try Trailway Brewing. They have some great beers. Nova Scotia has a lot of good beers too all through the province. I can only really comment to the IPA's personally though.

Edit: If the last thread was closed because of the beer talk feel free to delete this, but it didnt come off that way and this seems more productive than talking about how Bergevin doing nothing is better than when he tries to do something.
 

Habernack

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Feb 10, 2010
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Never underestimate "The Berg"

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Bryson

#EugeneMolson
Jun 25, 2008
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Relax. It's a conversation and we disagree.

Gauthier: Can't believe you are defending him. I guess every squirrel gets a nut every once in a while eh?

Gainey and Bergevin: Same thing pretty much. They started off well and struggled towards the end. And I was a huge fan of Gainey as our GM for the record.

We are not disagreeing... you are just flat out wrong. Also I am not defending Gauthier, I am merely stating the facts unlike you who defends Bergevin in lieu of the facts and being proven to be an incompetent tool of the highest magnitude and worst GM in the history of the sport. Where would this team be without Gallagher and his 30 goals? When was the last time Bergevin added a comparable player to the core? Bergevin unintentionally built a lottery team when he thought he was building a contender. 7 years later he's still riding the coattails of his predecessor.

Gainey didn't inherit a golden team like Bergevin with tons of talented prospects entering their prime. He took over a poopoo team he inherited from the dark ages. Gainey did not stuggle, he overpaid for Gomez but the team he built made it to the ECF the very same year he was let go. That is literally the opposite of struggling. It's embarrassing that you would even compare him to Bergevin and you're no fan of Gainey's if you think they are comparable. People credit McPhee and the Golden Knights for building a contender in one off season. Where is Gainey's credit for doing the same? And he didn't have the luxury of poaching the other team's best players.
 

Bryson

#EugeneMolson
Jun 25, 2008
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8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. That is on Gainey and very few people are willing to acknowledge this. This set us up for failure with our prospect pool for many years after and we are only turning the corner from this now... 7 years later.

Why do you always bring up 2008-2011 but leave out 2007 or the poor drafting from 2012-2017? Gainey was only there for the 2008/09 drafts and we didn't even have a 1st round pick in 2008 because we used it to acquire Tanguay for the Centennial year. Hello McFly!?? Then in 2010 we drafted Gallagher... you know the current best player on the team that just scored 30 goals... WTF is wrong with you? I seriously can't figure it out.

I asked you before and you never answered... what corner are we turning 7 years later? Do we have a Vezina/hart goalie in the minors? Norris trophy defenseman? Multiple 30 goal scorers? Please tell us what corner we are turning when our best prospect is realistically a 2C, the rest are all middling prospects and the big club is literally one of the worst it has ever been in franchise history.
 

Habs Halifax

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Jul 11, 2016
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Why do you always bring up 2008-2011 but leave out 2007 or the poor drafting from 2012-2017? Gainey was only there for the 2008/09 drafts and we didn't even have a 1st round pick in 2008 because we used it to acquire Tanguay for the Centennial year. Hello McFly!?? Then in 2010 we drafted Gallagher... you know the current best player on the team that just scored 30 goals... WTF is wrong with you? I seriously can't figure it out.

I asked you before and you never answered... what corner are we turning 7 years later? Do we have a Vezina/hart goalie in the minors? Norris trophy defenseman? Multiple 30 goal scorers? Please tell us what corner we are turning when our best prospect is realistically a 2C, the rest are all middling prospects and the big club is literally one of the worst it has ever been in franchise history.

The 2008-2011 draft years are on Gainey due to the picks he traded away. I need to keep reminding you cause you don't understand how difficult it is to acquire prospects with only 8 top 100 picks in 4 years. This ranks almost dead last compared to all other teams. And we think we should be able to draft and develop with this amount of picks? I am fully aware of the 2007 draft and my point is going over your head. The 4 years after this was brutal! Very very very very bad and prevented our team from improving. When a Center became available (ROR, Carter, Richards, RyJo, etc), we had nothing in our pipeline to use in a trade to get them. We only have Gallagher to show for 4 years of drafting. Do you realize how bad this is?

2008: No 1st round pick
2009: No 2nd round pick
2010: No 2nd or 3rd round pick
2011: No 2nd or 3rd round pick

Who traded the 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2010 and 2011? Not exactly sure and don't have the time to figure out if this was Gainey or Gauthier. At the end of the day, Gainey was involved with this and he traded a 1st round pick and a 2nd for Tanguay who played 50 games for the Habs. If Bergevin did this, you would be all over it. Gainey also traded for Gomez which is one of the worse trades in franchise history. He tried and failed in the end. The mess he left was not good after Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher. We added Galchenyuk and got healthy.... resulted in a fringe cup contender with no centers and trouble scoring.

Turning the corner with our prospect pool? Not going to explain this to you cause you think it should have Crosby and Malkin or they suck.
 
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theghost1

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Oct 30, 2017
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Bergevin keeps talking how the draft is so important then why not go get some more draft picks.....take on some players on LTIR like Franzen with Detroit and MacArthur with Ottawa if you could get second round picks those would be high picks because those 2 teams will be bad.....and Molson needs to put his money where his mouth is.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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We are not disagreeing... you are just flat out wrong. Also I am not defending Gauthier, I am merely stating the facts unlike you who defends Bergevin in lieu of the facts and being proven to be an incompetent tool of the highest magnitude and worst GM in the history of the sport. Where would this team be without Gallagher and his 30 goals? When was the last time Bergevin added a comparable player to the core? Bergevin unintentionally built a lottery team when he thought he was building a contender. 7 years later he's still riding the coattails of his predecessor.

Gainey didn't inherit a golden team like Bergevin with tons of talented prospects entering their prime. He took over a poopoo team he inherited from the dark ages. Gainey did not stuggle, he overpaid for Gomez but the team he built made it to the ECF the very same year he was let go. That is literally the opposite of struggling. It's embarrassing that you would even compare him to Bergevin and you're no fan of Gainey's if you think they are comparable. People credit McPhee and the Golden Knights for building a contender in one off season. Where is Gainey's credit for doing the same? And he didn't have the luxury of poaching the other team's best players.

Gainey inherited Markov, Koivu, Ribs, Hainsey, Beauchemin, Komi, Higgins, Ryder and Pleks. He had Theo who a season before won a Hart and Vezna. I give MB Price but the rest Gainey inherited a better core than MB did.

Its clear you have no objectivity. If MB lost Ribs for Ninima you would be screaming it on this board all day but you give Gainey a pass. What about losing Beau and Hainsey for nothing? Or letting Kovalev/Komi walk in UFA year and treating our long standing cancer surviving captain like dung so he could get shiny new Gomez? If MB did all these things you would be crying on this board about it.

MB deserves his flak but because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong or you can tell them to GTFO. TooLegit is being balanced and see's the good and bad but you just want to push only your narrative and opinion.

So before you put me on blast, yes MB sucked these last 2 seasons and probably should be shown the door but we can still have civil conversations on this board.
 
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BLONG7

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Bergevin keeps talking how the draft is so important then why not go get some more draft picks.....take on some players on LTIR like Franzen with Detroit and MacArthur with Ottawa if you could get second round picks those would be high picks because those 2 teams will be bad.....and Molson needs to put his money where his mouth is.
Molson and Bergevin are not smart enough to do this...
 
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lo striver

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Jun 13, 2011
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Bergevin would first water down the beer then when sales drop Molson would come out saying he has full confidence in the new line of beer and it's better than the previous lines.
they will also promise to change font on the label to improve drinking expirience
 

smirob

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Jun 2, 2014
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I think if we were to exclude what Bergevin inherited and only look at the moves he’s made, it’s not looking good all things considered.

There are some good ones, but as of today he’s on the losing side of all major trades.

I don’t think we should look at some deep runs with a team he really didn’t add much to and praise him for the outcome.

This is why he shouldn’t be the one to rebuild this team imho, he’s not a big picture guy.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Jun 12, 2007
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Anyone passing through Fredericton and wants some beer should try Trailway Brewing. They have some great beers. Nova Scotia has a lot of good beers too all through the province. I can only really comment to the IPA's personally though.

Edit: If the last thread was closed because of the beer talk feel free to delete this, but it didnt come off that way and this seems more productive than talking about how Bergevin doing nothing is better than when he tries to do something.

And if ever you're drving by Vankleek Hill close to the Quebec/Ontario frontier, visit Beau's Brewery. Excellent beer.
 
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Bryson

#EugeneMolson
Jun 25, 2008
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Gainey inherited Markov, Koivu, Ribs, Hainsey, Beauchemin, Komi, Higgins, Ryder and Pleks. He had Theo who a season before won a Hart and Vezna. I give MB Price but the rest Gainey inherited a better core than MB did.

Its clear you have no objectivity. If MB lost Ribs for Ninima you would be screaming it on this board all day but you give Gainey a pass. What about losing Beau and Hainsey for nothing? Or letting Kovalev/Komi walk in UFA year and treating our long standing cancer surviving captain like dung so he could get shiny new Gomez? If MB did all these things you would be crying on this board about it.

MB deserves his flak but because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong or you can tell them to GTFO. TooLegit is being balanced and see's the good and bad but you just want to push only your narrative and opinion.

So before you put me on blast, yes MB sucked these last 2 seasons and probably should be shown the door but we can still have civil conversations on this board.


It's not being balanced if she is claiming that 2008-2011 was brutal and very, very, very , very bad while ignoring the fact that the team's current best player came from that draft. I don't care what round you draft him in, if you draft a 30 goal scorer that is considered a good draft year and what does that make Bergevin's drafting over the years that has never developed a 30 goal scorer even once? Very, very, very, very, very ,very, very very, bad? What a stupid argument.

And what about the development side, you don't think that poor player development from Therrien and Lefebvre played a part in those prospects busting? I guarantee you they did.

The only one pushing narrative are the bergevin apologists, the rest of us see him for what he truly is. Throw gainey under the bus while claiming to be his "fan" but don't talk about bergevin's even worst drafting. Sure sounds balanced.
 
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Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Season 1 - no expectations, habs finish 4th in NHL exceeded.
Season 2 - Habs finish 9th in NHL on par with expectations after the previous lock out season
Season 3 - Habs finish 2nd in NHL exceed expectations after an ECF run
Season 4 - Miss the playoffs with epic collapse, below expectations
Season 5 - Up until Feb habs were a top 5 team, after trading PK and missing playoffs the year before exceeded expectations. Team got tired of MT, had a bad streak and he is fired.

So essentially all but 1 season the habs meet or exceeded the expectations. I don't deny MT wore out his welcome by the 5th season and he was rightfully fired. But your essentially saying a 3rd last team was expected to win back 2 back cups after his first year.

Well there are a bunch of factual errors, like when we went to the ECF

2012-2013: Exceeded expectations in the regular season, failed to reach expectations in the playoffs
20
2013-2014: Was actually below expectations, we went from a team that outplayed the other teams most of the time to a team that was outplayed most games. We were carried by goaltending, and Vanek at the TD was a big help. In the playoffs we met expectations.
2014-2015: Again below expectations because we were carried by incredible goaltending. We finished 2nd, yet we were 23rd in terms of possession. We got outplayed game in game out. Playoffs were a disappointment as well, though I won't bother arguing if someone wants to say they met expectations. Though if you are using strictly the 2nd overall finish and not possession then I don't see how a 2nd round exit isn't a disappointment.
2015-2016: Epic collapse.
2016-2017: Another epic collapse that was only somewhat saved by firing the coach.

That's Therrien's record, one good lockout shortened season, and one good playoff run.

My expectations were the team to outplay other teams most of the time, and to make it out of the 2nd round somewhat consistently.



And outside of that? Look at our 2-6 D it was pretty bad. I don't deny Markov/PK carried the D but you got guys like Cube/Allen/Gonchar/Gilbert/Rookie Beau/etc...

First having a better top-2 is way more important then having good bottom pairing defenceman. Second we also had Petry who is a strong #3, Gorges/Emelin were average #4 guys during their time. Go ahead and look at the #3-6 guys on the teams you listed Tom Gilbert would probably make their top-4 most years.

Make a list of the top-4 for each team, and I doubt anyone takes it over Markov, Subban, Petry, Emelin.

Max was a great scorer and then we drop off to PAP and Weise and Semins. Yes we had some good young guys but thats the point they were young you are putting the weight of the team on 19 and 20 year olds, one was a 5th round pick. This team had a decent group of about 5/6 players and then the rest was a bunch of depth.

So we are just going to ignore Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Plekanec? Even Eller is showing he can be a productive player away from Therrien. And that doesn't even include the guys who were only here for a short time but were very productive like Radulov, Ryder, Vanek.

And we didn't put the weight of the team on young players, we actually had a solid group of veterans like Plekanec, Gionta, etc...

Therrien inherited a great mix of youth and vets. But he did a terrible job of developing the youth because he thought none of them were as good as Desharnais. And he didn't get as much out of his vets as he could have because everyone had to play behind Desharnais.


Goaltending I will say Price was great. D well again outside of Markov/PK it was very barren. But the rest of the lineup was a tier below. And thats where the habs finished a tier below those teams.

From MT's hire till his fire the team was 9th in points in the NHL. They were at the tier they should be at, even probably above it, based on the roster they had.

Look at Pittsburgh's D after Letang and get back to me on how barren we were. How many forwards did LA have behind Kopitar and Richards, not a lot. Every team has holes, even those contenders, the difference with us was that instead of using the best players in those important roles Therrien decided to play lesser players ahead of his better ones. That made us look worse then we were.



LOL lets use imaginary numbers instead of real numbers. Pretty much every player under MT had their best seasons ever. Lars surpassed his finally last season with 38 pts with caps. Markov/Pleks had their best seasons in nearly a decade.

MT's best players played their best hockey under him and the team overall even with the epic collapse still was 9th in the NHL for points. Looking at the teams roster outside really of Price/Max/PK/Markov they punched above where they should of been.

If you want to use real numbers then how can you claim Plekanec's best years were with Therrien?

The 5 years before Therrien he produced 59 points over 82 games, afterwards 40 (Though 53 if we exclude his last year where he fell off a cliff). His best season was 70 points, but with Therrien it was 60. The same goes for Markov, Gionta, even Desharnais's, their best season came before Therrien. So you can LOL all you want but it's obvious

The only players who had their best seasons under Therrien were guys who were super young and it can be attributed to natural progression.

Doesn't mean MT is the smartest guy in the world and can't be critcized, but I agree with toolegittoquit that the hyperbole on MT is over the top and people can't see past their bias and hate for the guy.

My coach should get the best out of his best players and provide a good record. For most of his time here MT did that and when he stopped he got shown the door.

He didn't do it, most of the time he had us playing crap hockey that relied extensively on super human goaltending. And to top it off he stagnated the development of pretty much everyone.
 
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