Marc Bergevin - Take It Or Leave It Edition

[MaynardJames]

He let his director of scouting do his job? As if that's somehow anything other than normal expected behaviour...He brushed his teeth this morning , are we giving him brownie points for that as well?

My sentiment comes from certain fans thinking we are in the best of hands, I unfortunately disagree.

Which hands would bring us to the promise land ?

 

[donghabs98]

I found this interesting episode of 24CH from 2017. Starting at the 24 miniute mark it shows you how the Habs handle trade deadline day. Worth checking out.

 

[Whitesnake]

That led to Kotkaniemi. Enjoy him and stop crying.

Which is what a rebuild should be about. If Bergevin sucking gets us Kotkaniemi, a real rebuild could have gotten us Matthews, and/or Pettersson, and/or Marner etc. That's a real plan. You either go full all in or go full all out. Going in the middle gives you a middle team. And stats prove that you will rarely win with middle teams. You might do it, but chances are when is all said and done, it's the Chicago and the Pens that will win it all. I will never get people who are against tanking.....but keep bringing the Galchenyuk, the Sergachev, the Koktkaniemi and the Price as great products we have or had in Montreal.

 

[MaynardJames]

Which is what a rebuild should be about. If Bergevin sucking gets us Kotkaniemi, a real rebuild could have gotten us Matthews, and/or Pettersson, and/or Marner etc. That's a real plan. You either go full all in or go full all out. Going in the middle gives you a middle team. And stats prove that you will rarely win with middle teams. You might do it, but chances are when is all said and done, it's the Chicago and the Pens that will win it all. I will never get people who are against tanking.....but keep bringing the Galchenyuk, the Sergachev, the Koktkaniemi and the Price as great products we have or had in Montreal.

Losing on purpose is not a plan, it's cheating.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Imagine if we can bank Petry at the right time for a solid prospect and add it to this core.

I expect more than a solid prospect if we trade Petry. I want a solid piece for each year in term left at the minimum. He's trending very well in the last few seasons. He's no longer the guy he was 4 years ago.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Losing on purpose is not a plan, it's cheating.

If you work around the rules and gain from it, who cares.

 

[CauZuki]

Which hands would bring us to the promise land ?

Good ones with a clear vision that don't change directions summer to summer...

 

[Adam Michaels]

Vanek for Colberg (fleeced Snow)
Petry for 2nd rounder (fleeced Mactavish)
Byron waiver pick-up (fleeced entire league)

I wouldn't blame gms for not wanting to deal with The Berge from fear of getting fleeced and being added to his hitlist.

Don't forget Weise/Fleischmann for Danault + 2nd (Romanov). And we can also say the Weise for Diaz trade was a real good one.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I expect more than a solid prospect if we trade Petry. I want a solid piece for each year in term left at the minimum. He's trending very well in the last few seasons. He's no longer the guy he was 4 years ago.

It depends on the prospect.

You would ask more than Miro Heiskanen (hypothetically speaking) for Petry?

As I said before, added picks would be a function of the prospect not being worth as much. In the case of Heiskanen, it's the opposite, Habs would probably have to add a bit on their side.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It depends on the prospect.

You would ask more than Miro Heiskanen (hypothetically speaking) for Petry?

As I said before, added picks would be a function of the prospect not being worth as much. In the case of Heiskanen, it's the opposite, Habs would probably have to add a bit on their side.

Personally, I have gone back and forth with trading Petry. Based on the ability we have shown this season and the risks of selling vets for more futures with the hopes we will be better in 5 years than we are today, I have changed my approach.

I'm keeping Petry until Brook, Juulsen, or Fleury show ability to replace his production. I'm only trading Petry based on pry away trade return and the probability of that happening is slim to none. Think about how hard it took for us to get the value we got for Patch? If Vegas did not have the Tatar circumstance, do we still get the same value for Patch? It wasn't easy to get that return and Bergevin will tell you this. Vegas swapped a player that didn't fit who had a decent cap hit for Patch who they felt produces more and it cost them Suzuki and a 2nd. Why didn't we get the 1st? Think about it. Tatar came with retention and he was considered 3rd line value at that point in time.

Kings will explore return options for Muzzin no doubt. A prospect and a 1st is a good starting point. If they wait past this deadline, it will be the same concern the Habs had with Patch when we didn't trade him at last deadline.

 

[CauZuki]

That led to Kotkaniemi. Enjoy him and stop crying.

Happy accidents is how you want this team to be built?

How about emphasis on drafting and development and having the consistent results to back it up.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Happy accidents is how you want this team to be built?

How about emphasis on drafting and development and having the consistent results to back it up.

Well, he's not called the disaster artist for nothing

 

[mariolemieux66]

We are not winning the cup until we do a proper rebuild. More years of mediocrity to come.

 

[Adriatic]

Don't forget Weise/Fleischmann for Danault + 2nd (Romanov). And we can also say the Weise for Diaz trade was a real good one.

Of course, that one is like the crown jewel. Not to mention acquiring Domi for golden boy and the bags of goods we received for 67. He practically never misses on trades.

 

[DAChampion]

He practically never misses on trades.

With the exception of all of the exceptions.

Subban for Weber.
Sergachev for golden boy.
Pateryn for Benn.
Targeting Nesterov, King, rather than doing nothing.
Two second rounders for Shaw, when Terevainen was available for less.

That's five cases where the greater value went the other way.

 

[InglewoodJack]

He destroyed the team by

1) Trading Subban for Weber
2) Not willing to resign Radulov
3) Not extending Markov

The Drouin Trade is debatable.

The Subban trade was horrible and not resigning Radulov was horrible. Now instead we get to watch Armia or Shaw on the right side of Drouin and Domi.

I’m sorry but Radulov is one of the best RW in the league, you pay him more than 6.5 or whatever he signed for.

Love Markov and think that the team did him dirty, but you don't ruin a franchise by not signing your pushing-40 former #1 defenceman whose, let's be honest, a sure shot to miss 20-30 games in any given season.

 

[JohnLennon]

Unfortunately, the changes made in the summer are incomplete. The pro and amateur scouting contingents have mostly remained the same. We'd need to see critical upgrades, via adding better pro scouting personnel and better and more expansive amateur scouting personnel. Habs need to use the economic advantages provided by their status as a high revenue team to spend where they are not handcuffed by a cap.

Has the pro scouting side really not changed one bit? I thought if I had to choose a weak link over Bergevin's tenure, pro scouting along with amateur development were our two weak spots. It appears amateur development has received an overhaul, but I'm curious about pro scouting:

To an outsider with limited knowledge on the personnel, it appears there was an upgrade in pro scouting, but maybe that's just the luck of some moves panning out. The acquisitions of Max Domi, Tomas Tatar, Joel Armia, Mike Reilly, Brett Kulak, Kenny Agostino, Michael Chaput and others over the last year or so seem to be consistent wins for the team. Either something changed up top, we got lucky, we simply improved, or maybe a mix of all three? I don't know but it's a good sign moving forward - tired of getting guys like Hemsky, Briere, Streit...

I totally agree in the end - using the lack of a salary cap for management/coaching personnel to our advantage needs to be done. That's a huge advantage for a team like ours.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We are not winning the cup until we do a proper rebuild. More years of mediocrity to come.

We have to pick a direction for sure. That's always been our problem. Go for it or don't... but we sit in the middle.

If we're not doing a rebuild, fine. Then go all in now. Go get Fowler (his name's been floating around) and try to land some good scorers. At least take a shot at something.

But having us sit here struggling for 8th is just so nonsensical. We're wasting prime seasons of our best assets and not supporting them enough to ice a winning team.

Do one or the other.... but commit to it.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Love Markov and think that the team did him dirty, but you don't ruin a franchise by not signing your pushing-40 former #1 defenceman whose, let's be honest, a sure shot to miss 20-30 games in any given season.

He was offered base plus performance bonus structure as a 39 year old. If Bergevin offered him $4M plus $2M in performance bonuses if he played close to a full season and close to his previous production, that was a fair offer IMO.

It's just shitty how it ended. Markov felt disrespected but I think he should of hired an agent. Worked before when he was younger but things change and going after a 2 year deal at age 39 was too risky for the Habs... even if we didn't use our cap space in that span.

 

[Deebs]

With the exception of all of the exceptions.

Subban for Weber.
Sergachev for golden boy.
Pateryn for Benn.
Targeting Nesterov, King, rather than doing nothing.
Two second rounders for Shaw, when Terevainen was available for less.

That's five cases where the greater value went the other way.

I have to disagree.

I'd take Weber over PK everyday of the week. I knew PK was slowing down a couple years ago, but the pace that he's slowing down at is alarming to the point where I'm wondering if he has a medical condition or something. He can't carry his additional weight anymore. Both are still excellent D men, just different styles.

Drouin offers more than Sergachev which is alarming. Sergachev has been terrible this year on an All-Star team noless. Still time to go as he's young, but to this point, Adv Drouin. Both are passive and don't show much drive, but I'd rather that be in a forward than a D man.

Benn has been solid as a 3rd pairing D man. Pateryn shouldn't be in the league.

Giving up the two 2nds for Shawzy was expensive, I agree, but still love what Shaw brings to the table. Having a career year before getting hurt.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He destroyed the team by

1) Trading Subban for Weber
2) Not willing to resign Radulov
3) Not extending Markov

The Drouin Trade is debatable.

The Subban trade was horrible and not resigning Radulov was horrible. Now instead we get to watch Armia or Shaw on the right side of Drouin and Domi.

I’m sorry but Radulov is one of the best RW in the league, you pay him more than 6.5 or whatever he signed for.

1) Trading a RD for a RD who was 4 years older was very questionable. I agree. But lets not pretend that Weber is not good. The concern is how good he is from age 31-36/37. So far, he is the Weber he was before we acquired him. Just very weird why we would make this move so based on this, it's a negative and a risky move.

2) "Not willing to re-sign Radulov". I don't like how this was worded. Bergevin started negotiating with Radulov in Dec of 2016 and it went on for months. Radulov clearly wanted to explore his options as a UFA just like Tavares did. Bergevin is only guilty for not willing to sign him for more than what Radulov signed for with Dallas. Radulov asked for more due to tax difference. You can try to squash this but Bergevin said this on record himself. Radulov choose the stars. I blame Bergevin for not signing Radulov to a 3 year deal from the get go. He should of known it would be very difficult to re-sign him to a larger deal after he proved himself.

3) Markov was offered a fair deal for a player who could not play a full season and was 39. He was likely offered $4M and another $2M in bonus if he reached previous production numbers. That was not a terrible offer and Markov should of hired an agent.

4) Drouin for Sergeachev. We made a hockey trade and we don't know who won or lost this yet. The issue some people have is we traded Sergachev around the time we lost Markov and gave up on Beaulieu (right or wrong at the time) resulting in a huge hole on LD where we signed Alzner which was a mistake. Not a terrible trade but a questionable one.

 

[Kriss E]

I have to disagree.

I'd take Weber over PK everyday of the week. I knew PK was slowing down a couple years ago, but the pace that he's slowing down at is alarming to the point where I'm wondering if he has a medical condition or something. He can't carry his additional weight anymore. Both are still excellent D men, just different styles.

Drouin offers more than Sergachev which is alarming. Sergachev has been terrible this year on an All-Star team noless. Still time to go as he's young, but to this point, Adv Drouin. Both are passive and don't show much drive, but I'd rather that be in a forward than a D man.

Benn has been solid as a 3rd pairing D man. Pateryn shouldn't be in the league.

Giving up the two 2nds for Shawzy was expensive, I agree, but still love what Shaw brings to the table. Having a career year before getting hurt.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

And your opinion doesn't seem to be very objective..
Subban has been slowing down for years according to you..it's very alarming, to the point where you think he has a medical condition and he can't even carry his ''additional'' weight around....yet he's still excellent. I mean really, at best this is a push.

Given our make up..not sure why anybody would rather have Drouin than Sergachev. Having a Dman of Sergachev's nature would be way more benefitial to this team imo.
Benn sucks. Some decent games this year, he still sucks. There's no way I'd pick him over Pateryn, never.
Two 2nds for Shaw was bad. No other way around it.

Bergevin has made good trades, but those weren't it.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I have to disagree.

I'd take Weber over PK everyday of the week. I knew PK was slowing down a couple years ago, but the pace that he's slowing down at is alarming to the point where I'm wondering if he has a medical condition or something. He can't carry his additional weight anymore. Both are still excellent D men, just different styles.

Drouin offers more than Sergachev which is alarming. Sergachev has been terrible this year on an All-Star team noless. Still time to go as he's young, but to this point, Adv Drouin. Both are passive and don't show much drive, but I'd rather that be in a forward than a D man.

Benn has been solid as a 3rd pairing D man. Pateryn shouldn't be in the league.

Giving up the two 2nds for Shawzy was expensive, I agree, but still love what Shaw brings to the table. Having a career year before getting hurt.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

PK is less than a year removed from a top 3 Norris nomination and 18 months removed from a Conn Smythe nomination.

That's already a bigger output than what Weber has provided so far after the trade.

In 2017, when he was injured, we heard the same stuff you're saying. PK got back from injury to dominate the playoffs like Weber was never able to do, and then followed with a Norris worthy season where he dominated all dmen for primary points, all the while having the toughest defensive assignment and a 57% defensive zone starts, almost 10% more than either Doughty or Hedman.

So far, PK has been injured for a whopping 35 games with the Preds. How many games has Weber missed with the Habs??

PK hasnt even played 10 games since coming back from injury and so far this season, he's averaging what Weber got in his best career season. Oh yeah, it's under PK's usual average, but it's still as good as what Weber can produce at his best.

 

[Deebs]

PK is less than a year removed from a top 3 Norris nomination and 18 months removed from a Conn Smythe nomination.

That's already a bigger output than what Weber has provided so far after the trade.

In 2017, when he was injured, we heard the same stuff you're saying. PK got back from injury to dominate the playoffs like Weber was never able to do, and then followed with a Norris worthy season where he dominated all dmen for primary points, all the while having the toughest defensive assignment and a 57% defensive zone starts, almost 10% more than either Doughty or Hedman.

So far, PK has been injured for a whopping 35 games with the Preds. How many games has Weber missed with the Habs??

PK hasnt even played 10 games since coming back from injury and so far this season, he's averaging what Weber got in his best career season. Oh yeah, it's under PK's usual average, but it's still as good as what Weber can produce at his best.

Pk is a excellent D man and playing on the Preds, a Stanley Cup contender, should help him considerably.

PK has played 31 games this year and has 18 points whereas Shea has played in 26 games and has 16 points so the offensive output is nearly identical. When you consider the team strength difference and who Shea has played with this year, it's even more impressive on his behalf.

Then throw in the defensive play and it's not close imo, Weber is better even though he's with a weaker lineup. Doesn't mean PK is poor, just not as good.

The biggest advantage I put in Weber's corner is his consistency. You know what you're going to get every game whereas PK can be a massive difference maker or a non factor.

Again, just my take on it. Both are solid and can't go wrong with either.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Let's move on from the Weber vs Subban debate. It's fine to say you're for or against the trade but if you're going to argue the opinion do it in the out of town thread please. It's just so easy for the thread to get derailed from that debate.