Marc Bergevin - Take It Or Leave It Edition

[417]

Sure, a 3rd overall pick and a former 3rd overall pick to trade should do it.

Again...you're choosing to focus on those specific moves

But Ryan Poehling wasn't a top 5 pick, neither was Nick Suzuki and both of these guys are going to be important members of this team moving forward, perhaps as early as this year in Poehling's case.

Phil Danault is having a great season...not a top 5 pick and he was acquired for a player we signed on a PTO (Fleishmann) and a player we acquired for Raphael Diaz (Dale Weise). We got a 2nd round pick in that deal that ends up being Alexander Romanov and perhaps no other prospect (drafted outside the 1st round) has seen his stock rise as quickly in the last 6 months.

So sure...you can continue to think that only top 5 picks yield important returns and ignore everything else.

I prefer to take a much broader look at things.

 

[Scriptor]

If you think it's bad... provide your own list of comparisons like I asked you to if you disagreed. You do realize that it's not an exact one/one comparison cause it's impossible to mirror their team 100% right?

Talk to me in 5 years. We can look back and talk about what we should have done today. This is not the CHL where you lose your assets for sure when they are 20 and your are forced into a rebuild. There is no proper rebuild. Ask the Oilers.

The idea that we can flip Petry and Tatar while we turn it into Patch type returns every time is hope. The idea that all our top prospects become top of the line-up players is also hope and you know very well how much I like them.

Adding Stone gives us a quality producer as a RW scorer (which we do need) going forward. Stone, 26, is one of those rare UFAs that will hit the market in their ultimate peak years. He's good for a high end production clip over the next 8 years. If that's not a long term solution, what is?

Even if it takes three years for MON to restock it's D-Corps, Stone will still offer us high end production over a 5-yr Cup window, IMO.

I'm not big on Muzzin, personally, for the other part of your suggestion. I believe that, at 29 right now (30 in a month), he'll cost too much for the amount of time he can produce over a Cup run starting in three years, for example.

Signing Gardiner as am UFA, let's say, and using the assets you would have wasted on Muzzin for something else might be a better deal. In two years, Romanv will likely be starting the season with MON and Mete is a fine 3rd pairing D to have on any team.

Of course, who's to say Stone and Gardiner will sign here?

Stone will likely command Draisaitl money (somewhere around 8.5M for 7 years, or closer to 9M with a yearly up front, bonus-structured deal for tax purposes in Canada).

MON can afford this in the short term, but will have to re-sign Domi after next season and Kotkaniemi soon enough, plus a few others along the way; Gallagher, Tatar, Lehkonen, Petry, etc.

Some serious Cap clean-up would have to be put into motion to free up enough space for both Stone and Gardiner and the upcoming RFAs/UFAs already on the team.

It's not impossible, with all the youngsters in the system and coming up through the system, but players like Petry, for example, might need to be traded or not re-signed to free up some Cap space going forward. Veterans like Byron might need to be replaced by younger players such as Ylonen for the same reasons.

In three years, with the Habs youngsters progressing and Stone and Gardiner added to the lineup, the team could look good as:

Domi (6.5M/6 remaining) - Kotkaniemi (6.5M/7 remaining) - Stone (9M/5 remaining)
Drouin (5.5M/2 remaining) - Poehling (1M/2 remaining) - Gallagher (6M/6 remaining)
Tatar (5.5M/5 remaining) - Danault (3M/3 remaining) - Suzuki (1M/2 remaining)
Lehkonen (1.5M/1 remaining) - Evans (1M/2 remaining) - Ylonen (1M/3 remaining)

Gardiner (6.5M/5 remaining) - Weber (7.857M/5 remaining)
Romanov (1M/2 remaining) - Brook (1M/2 remaining)
Mete (1,75M/2 remaining) - Juulsen (1.75M/2 remaining)

Price (10.5M/ 5 remaining)
McNiven (1.5M/2 remaining)

I'd go to war with that lineup at 79.357M. By then, the Cap might well be up to between 83M and 85M, leaving enough room for a 23-player deep roster and the IR.

Things get complicated after trying to win the Cup for two years and some talent will need to be sacrificed. Bridge contracts will also need to be considered.

 

[Andrei79]

I'm not Bergevin's boss, so I can't really I'm not one to say if he's managed to reach his objectives for this year.

As a fan though, I'm disapointed with the direction of the team. The games that I can watch, look like a rerun of the last 25 years where its still lacking top end offensive players. And we're still doing close to nothing to add them.

He really had a prime opportunity to rebuild, but he opted out. Or, I should say Molson did. He likely asked to ive a competitive team and if it failed well, they'd end up "winning" since they'd add another top pick to a deep, though lacking in high end, group of under 25 players.

That being said, taken out of context, all of his moves have been outstanding since the TDL. It's the polar opposite of the disastrous 2016 and 2017 offseasons.

Domi, Plekanec trade, the draft, the coaching staff, the AHL staff, the Pacioretty deal, getting Armia+picks for free. It's tough to find a better offseason from a Habs GM since the Roy trade. But... he also has likely the two worst.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Adding Stone gives us a quality producer as a RW scorer (which we do need) going forward. Stone, 26, is one of those rare UFAs that will hit the market in their ultimate peak years. He's good for a high end production clip over the next 8 years. If that's not a long term solution, what is?

Even if it takes three years for MON to restock it's D-Corps, Stone will still offer us high end production over a 5-yr Cup window, IMO.

I'm not big on Muzzin, personally, for the other part of your suggestion. I believe that, at 29 right now (30 in a month), he'll cost too much for the amount of time he can produce over a Cup run starting in three years, for example.

Signing Gardiner as am UFA, let's say, and using the assets you would have wasted on Muzzin for something else might be a better deal. In two years, Romanv will likely be starting the season with MON and Mete is a fine 3rd pairing D to have on any team.

Of course, who's to say Stone and Gardiner will sign here?

Stone will likely command Draisaitl money (somewhere around 8.5M for 7 years, or closer to 9M with a yearly up front, bonus-structured deal for tax purposes in Canada).

MON can afford this in the short term, but will have to re-sign Domi after next season and Kotkaniemi soon enough, plus a few others along the way; Gallagher, Tatar, Lehkonen, Petry, etc.

Some serious Cap clean-up would have to be put into motion to free up enough space for both Stone and Gardiner and the upcoming RFAs/UFAs already on the team.

It's not impossible, with all the youngsters in the system and coming up through the system, but players like Petry, for example, might need to be traded or not re-signed to free up some Cap space going forward. Veterans like Byron might need to be replaced by younger players such as Ylonen for the same reasons.

In three years, with the Habs youngsters progressing and Stone and Gardiner added to the lineup, the team could look good as:

Domi (6.5M/6 remaining) - Kotkaniemi (6.5M/7 remaining) - Stone (9M/5 remaining)
Drouin (5.5M/2 remaining) - Poehling (1M/2 remaining) - Gallagher (6M/6 remaining)
Tatar (5.5M/5 remaining) - Danault (3M/3 remaining) - Suzuki (1M/2 remaining)
Lehkonen (1.5M/1 remaining) - Evans (1M/2 remaining) - Ylonen (1M/3 remaining)

Gardiner (6.5M/5 remaining) - Weber (7.857M/5 remaining)
Romanov (1M/2 remaining) - Brook (1M/2 remaining)
Mete (1,75M/2 remaining) - Juulsen (1.75M/2 remaining)

Price (10.5M/ 5 remaining)
McNiven (1.5M/2 remaining)

I'd go to war with that lineup at 79.357M. By then, the Cap might well be up to between 83M and 85M, leaving enough room for a 23-player deep roster and the IR.

Things get complicated after trying to win the Cup for two years and some talent will need to be sacrificed. Bridge contracts will also need to be considered.

1) We agree on Stone

2) I agree on the concerns with Muzzin. But if it cost me Ylonen or Juulsen or Fleury and two 2nd's. I'm willing to swallow that pill. Those 2nd's are 50+, not 31-50 range. If they hit, they hit. the chances of finding elite level talent in the 2nd round is rare. We got Romanov last year but he was a early 2nd round pick. Subban was taken 43rd. Weber was taken 49. We talking about extreme rare cases here. Ylonen does hurt no doubt. Could turn into Lehkonen type or slightly better. Doubt he is a 1st line talent. More like middle 6.

Muzzin does come with risks but boy does he ever provide shutdown ability with some offense in front of Price. I consider him similar value to Petry. If the Kings are happy with Ylonen and two 2nd's, ask to talk to him first and see how excited he is about joining us and what he would be looking for if we could possibly extend him after July of 2019. You will get a good feel about it. If you don't get a good vibe, squash the trade offer. Wait for other circumstance to come and the will.

3) I want nothing to to with Gardiner. Zero interest at all. Maybe I consider it if he wants sign for $4M or less but that's not happening. Some sucker GM is going to sign him. It's a trap IMO, he's no better than Beaulieu and his production is deceiving cause of the offense the Leafs produce. And add that he is average in terms of shutdown ability. The next team he plays for is going to be disappointed.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I'm not Bergevin's boss, so I can't really I'm not one to say if he's managed to reach his objectives for this year.

As a fan though, I'm disapointed with the direction of the team. The games that I can watch, look like a rerun of the last 25 years where its still lacking top end offensive players. And we're still doing close to nothing to add them.

He really had a prime opportunity to rebuild, but he opted out. Or, I should say Molson did. He likely asked to ive a competitive team and if it failed well, they'd end up "winning" since they'd add another top pick to a deep, though lacking in high end, group of under 25 players.

That being said, taken out of context, all of his moves have been outstanding since the TDL. It's the polar opposite of the disastrous 2016 and 2017 offseasons.

Domi, Plekanec trade, the draft, the coaching staff, the AHL staff, the Pacioretty deal, getting Armia+picks for free. It's tough to find a better offseason from a Habs GM since the Roy trade. But... he also has likely the two worst.

Gainey's 2009 summer was better, no matter the perception of it. Signed Cammalleri, Gionta and traded for Gomez and if it weren't for Markov getting injured in the 8th game of the playoffs, they might've went further than the ECF. Kinda hard to win the big prize with a banged up Hamrlik playing with a rookie Subban.

 

[Andrei79]

Gainey's 2009 summer was better, no matter the perception of it. Signed Cammalleri, Gionta and traded for Gomez and if it weren't for Markov getting injured in the 8th game of the playoffs, they might've went further than the ECF. Kinda hard to win the big prize with a banged up Hamrlik playing with a rookie Subban.

I thought that was the worst offseason I'd have seen in a while back then. I still think it's top 3 with Bergevins. 2009 was a prime opportunity to invest in a rebuild and suck it out for 2-3 years. Even without hindsight, the Gomez trade was brutal, just absolutely brutal.

I mean, just imagine if we had gotten out of a few drafts with Johansen/Seguin, Huberdeau and say, Reilly/Lindholm/Trouba (just because we'd be better in '12 ), on top of McDonagh, Markov, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Price... we'd have a cup by now.

This year is similar imo. I could see us looking back at what could have been.

 

[scrubadam]

I'm not Bergevin's boss, so I can't really I'm not one to say if he's managed to reach his objectives for this year.

As a fan though, I'm disapointed with the direction of the team. The games that I can watch, look like a rerun of the last 25 years where its still lacking top end offensive players. And we're still doing close to nothing to add them.

He really had a prime opportunity to rebuild, but he opted out. Or, I should say Molson did. He likely asked to ive a competitive team and if it failed well, they'd end up "winning" since they'd add another top pick to a deep, though lacking in high end, group of under 25 players.

That being said, taken out of context, all of his moves have been outstanding since the TDL. It's the polar opposite of the disastrous 2016 and 2017 offseasons.

Domi, Plekanec trade, the draft, the coaching staff, the AHL staff, the Pacioretty deal, getting Armia+picks for free. It's tough to find a better offseason from a Habs GM since the Roy trade. But... he also has likely the two worst.

I don't understand how you can say this when he traded out 2 best offensive players for a team that was one of the worst offensive teams last year. On top of that he knew our 1D was out for 25% of the season and he did nothing to replace him. And lets remember that our 1-6-1 start last year was essentially what killed the season. So MB was willing to go into the season with an offense that last year was 3rd last, and made it worse and with no number 1 D and a number 1 Goalie who played like crap last season.

Somehow he opted out of a rebuild? The players over performed and showed they had heart and guts out there. You can't blame MB for that. He set his team up to be worse than last year where they were bottom 5.

 

[scrubadam]

Here is baseballcoach's post which was a reply to my post in the other thread

Here is the list, with the added qualifier if the player was important to the team:
1996 - Chris Phillips NO and Marco Sturm NO
1997 - Joe Thornton NO and Patrick Marleau NO
1998 - Vincent Lecavalier WON in 2004 and David Legwand NO
1999 - Patrik Stefan NO and Daniel Sedin NO
2000 - Rick DiPietro NO and Dany Heatley NO
2001 - Ilya Kovalchuk NO and Jason Spezza NO
2002 - Rick Nash NO and Kari Lehtonen NO
2003 - Marc-André Fleury WON three times without starring and ERIC STALL won in 2006
2004 - Alex Ovechkin WON in 2018 and Evgeni Malkin WON three times
2005 - Sidney Crosby WON three times and Bobby Ryan NO
2006 - Erik Johnson NO and Jordan Staal WON in 2009 (as 3C)
2007 - Patrick Kane WON three times and James Van Riemsdyk NO
2008 - Steven Stamkos NO and Drew Doughty WON twice
2009 - John Tavares NO Victor Hedman NO
2010 - Ryan Nugent Hopkins NO and Tyler Seguin WON in 2011 but not a contributor
2011 - Taylor Hall NO and Gabriel Landeskog NO
2012 - Nail Yakupov NO and Ryan Murray NO
2013 - Nathan Mackinnon NO and Aleksander Barkov NO
2014 - Aaron Ekblad NO and Sam Reinhart NO
2015 - Connor McDavid NO and Jack Eichel NO
2016 - Auston Matthews NO and Patrik Laine NO
2017 - Nico Hischier NO and Nolan Patrick NO


10 Cup winners out of 44 players, of which 7 were elite members of the team

As for the other Top-5 spots
3rd overall - 1 out of 22 so far
4th overall - 2 out of 22 so far
5th overall - 0 out of 22 so far

So everyone talking about top 5 picks or top 3 picks, there it is. 10 out of 44 1st/2nd OVA's have won cups, 1 out of 3rd, 2 out of 4th, and 0 out of 5.

Just losing and getting a top 5 pick is not some sort of gurantee of a cup. Its not a plan, its just a cop out and throwing your hands up and saying I don't know what to do.

13 out of 110 players drafted top 5 since 1997 have won a cup. 10%. Draft top 5 and you still have a 90% chance of not getting a player that will lead your franchise to a cup.

So I think we need better discussion then lose for a top 5 pick and derp derp you are the Pens now and will win 3 cups.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't understand how you can say this when he traded out 2 best offensive players for a team that was one of the worst offensive teams last year. On top of that he knew our 1D was out for 25% of the season and he did nothing to replace him. And lets remember that our 1-6-1 start last year was essentially what killed the season. So MB was willing to go into the season with an offense that last year was 3rd last, and made it worse and with no number 1 D and a number 1 Goalie who played like crap last season.

Somehow he opted out of a rebuild? The players over performed and showed they had heart and guts out there. You can't blame MB for that. He set his team up to be worse than last year where they were bottom 5.

I can easily blame MB for that, actually. He didn't sell a single player. Even the Pacioretty deal had Tatar coming back. He maintained at the end of last year that "it all starts with Carey Price", meaning by keeping him he still had hopes he'd rebound and make the team competitive. I don't need hindsight for this either as it was already clear this summer the team had no intention of doing a genuine rebuild.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I thought that was the worst offseason I'd have seen in a while back then. I still think it's top 3 with Bergevins. 2009 was a prime opportunity to invest in a rebuild and suck it out for 2-3 years. Even without hindsight, the Gomez trade was brutal, just absolutely brutal.

I mean, just imagine if we had gotten out of a few drafts with Johansen/Seguin, Huberdeau and say, Reilly/Lindholm/Trouba (just because we'd be better in '12 ), on top of McDonagh, Markov, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Price... we'd have a cup by now.

This year is similar imo. I could see us looking back at what could have been.

You do realize that we were coming off the centennial.

As much as I dislike Bergevin, I won't put it against him for not rebuilding. Bergevin has to deal with the same prerogative from the owner.

What I think is brutal is analyzing what was done with the sole focus of your own prerogative. As if, that's the goal and plan they would follow in any circumstance, as if your prerogative is the same as the owner's. It's not, they have bosses and orders. It is clear as day that Gainey had no other choice than to push for the playoffs when came the centennial.

That's what is job was. What Gillette wanted. Now go look at what he did vs what his boss wanted, and it's pretty much a success. And yes, hindsight was needed regarding Gomez. You were able to predict Gomez would live through a clinical depression? That's great, you should go volunteer to make early diagnosis in psychiatry. Fact is, Gomez was close to PPG in the last 45 games of the 09-10 season (41pts), and there would never have been a ECF if it weren't for his contribution. So if you're Gainey's boss and what you want are the playoffs at a key moment in the club's history, how did your employee faired? How is it fair for Gainey where he never failed hard enough as to have his owner relinquish some of the short term gain for more mid term and long term planning like we saw this summer?

In 2012, we all wanted a rebuild, well mostly all wanted that, and I won't hold it against Bergevin for not doing it, I'll judge him by what his boss wants and what he does to accomplish that goal.

 

[Whitesnake]

Not sure who says that getting a top 5 pick is a guarantee of a Cup. But getting 2 or 3 top 5 picks when you actually have a good base, a great goalie, and are not AHL material could very well be. Take the teams that won and look at the redrafts. You might not win with a top 5 pick. But you win with a top 5 pick TALENT. That means, guys that were not chosen top 5....but in re-draft, they would. But having said that, still, the best chance at getting a top 5 pick talent is to pick top 5.

But in the end.....it's never about going for a top 3 pick to play with AHL'ers. It would have been to get some consecutive top 3 picks to play with Price, Subban/Weber etc. If Price is as good as he is suppose to be, there is NO reasons why this Montreal Canadiens wouldn't have been a real contender with the additions of 2 of Matthews/Laine, McKinnon, Draisatl, McDavid/Eichel etc.

This whole ''Look at the Oilers, not true you can win with top picks'' is absolutely ridiculous. Top 3 picks is NOT the solution if you screw up everyting else. But it is a solution if you don't. OIlers are a perfect example of no matter what happens, if you are dumb, it won't work. But that's it.

 

[G0bias]

Again...you're choosing to focus on those specific moves

But Ryan Poehling wasn't a top 5 pick, neither was Nick Suzuki and both of these guys are going to be important members of this team moving forward, perhaps as early as this year in Poehling's case.

Phil Danault is having a great season...not a top 5 pick and he was acquired for a player we signed on a PTO (Fleishmann) and a player we acquired for Raphael Diaz (Dale Weise). We got a 2nd round pick in that deal that ends up being Alexander Romanov and perhaps no other prospect (drafted outside the 1st round) has seen his stock rise as quickly in the last 6 months.

So sure...you can continue to think that only top 5 picks yield important returns and ignore everything else.

I prefer to take a much broader look at things.

Take Kotkaniemi and Domi out of the equation and the situation would still be about the same...very bleak.

 

[Sorinth]

He really had a prime opportunity to rebuild, but he opted out.

How exactly did he opt out? It's not like he went out and acquired a bunch of vets to help the team. He picked up cap dumps to get extra picks and traded a young guy not living up to his potential for a younger guy not living up to his potential. He didn't go out and try to build a competitive team this offseason.

 

[Andrei79]

You do realize that we were coming off the centennial.

As much as I dislike Bergevin, I won't put it against him for not rebuilding. Bergevin has to deal with the same prerogative from the owner.

What I think is brutal is analyzing what was done with the sole focus of your own prerogative. As if, that's the goal and plan they would follow in any circumstance, as if your prerogative is the same as the owner's. It's not, they have bosses and orders. It is clear as day that Gainey had no other choice than to push for the playoffs when came the centennial.

That's what is job was. What Gillette wanted. Now go look at what he did vs what his boss wanted, and it's pretty much a success. And yes, hindsight was needed regarding Gomez. You were able to predict Gomez would live through a clinical depression? That's great, you should go volunteer to make early diagnosis in psychiatry. Fact is, Gomez was close to PPG in the last 45 games of the 09-10 season (41pts), and there would never have been a ECF if it weren't for his contribution. So if you're Gainey's boss and what you want are the playoffs at a key moment in the club's history, how did your employee faired? How is it fair for Gainey where he never failed hard enough as to have his owner relinquish some of the short term gain for more mid term and long term planning like we saw this summer?

In 2012, we all wanted a rebuild, well mostly all wanted that, and I won't hold it against Bergevin for not doing it, I'll judge him by what his boss wants and what he does to accomplish that goal.

You know, the previous post started with me precisely commenting on where I think the perogative comes from. I've mentioned in previous threads how Gomez' deal happened about a week and half after Molson took ownership of the club (Not Gillett, without an e, if we're being anal about realizing what happened that year).

And no, hindsight was not needed at the time. At all. Rangers fans were rejoicing about trading a brutal cap hit who underperformed that year for our best prospect (and in fact, it allowed them to add Gaborik). Habs fans were enraged when they saw the package we dealt. Molson likely didn't ask Gainey to be that badly on the losing side of a deal. Just like, despite asking Bergevin to compete, he likely didn't ask him to trade 2 high seconds for Andrew Shaw, yet here we are discussing why that deal was brutal. At some point, you need to look at your options and if the options are awful then its also your job to present those facts to your boss.

I do chuckle at the irony behind that psychiatry comment though.

 

[Andrei79]

Here is baseballcoach's post which was a reply to my post in the other thread



So everyone talking about top 5 picks or top 3 picks, there it is. 10 out of 44 1st/2nd OVA's have won cups, 1 out of 3rd, 2 out of 4th, and 0 out of 5.

Just losing and getting a top 5 pick is not some sort of gurantee of a cup. Its not a plan, its just a cop out and throwing your hands up and saying I don't know what to do.

13 out of 110 players drafted top 5 since 1997 have won a cup. 10%. Draft top 5 and you still have a 90% chance of not getting a player that will lead your franchise to a cup.

So I think we need better discussion then lose for a top 5 pick and derp derp you are the Pens now and will win 3 cups.

So, 9 of the last 10 cups were won by 1st and 2nd overall picks ? Good to know. Oh, And 12 of the last 14.

 

[417]

Take Kotkaniemi and Domi out of the equation and the situation would still be about the same...very bleak.

And why would we do that?

Are they not part of the team?

what would be the point of that excercise?

Would the outlook be the same if we had drafted Zadina (like many here thought we should) or kept Galchenyuk?

 

[G0bias]

And why would we do that?

Are they not part of the team?

what would be the point of that excercise?

Would the outlook be the same if we had drafted Zadina (like many here thought we should) or kept Galchenyuk?

I'm simply pointing it took a 3rd overall and a former 3rd ov to get those pieces.
Danault, Poehling etc at the end of the day, don't move the needle much.

 

[Andrei79]

How exactly did he opt out? It's not like he went out and acquired a bunch of vets to help the team. He picked up cap dumps to get extra picks and traded a young guy not living up to his potential for a younger guy not living up to his potential. He didn't go out and try to build a competitive team this offseason.

So, he traded for roster players, added one actually, and kept all of Byron, Petry, Weber and Price. Those are rebuilding moves ? Remember what the Leafs did when they decided they'd opt for a rebuild ?

 

[417]

I'm simply pointing it took a 3rd overall and a former 3rd ov to get those pieces.

But you're also ignoring all the other pieces that were added NOT using a top 5 pick.

 

[G0bias]

But you're also ignoring all the other pieces that were added NOT using a top 5 pick.

I'm not. They just aren't nearly as important as far changing the outlook of our C depth.

 

[417]

I'm not. They just aren't nearly as important as far changing the outlook of our C depth.

Disagree...but we're beating a dead horse at this point.

 

[scrubadam]

I can easily blame MB for that, actually. He didn't sell a single player. Even the Pacioretty deal had Tatar coming back. He maintained at the end of last year that "it all starts with Carey Price", meaning by keeping him he still had hopes he'd rebound and make the team competitive. I don't need hindsight for this either as it was already clear this summer the team had no intention of doing a genuine rebuild.

He had the 5th worst team in the legue with the 3rd worst offense, and came back with the same team minus his 2 best scorers.

Tatar was seen as a throw in (even by MB cuz he said Suzuki was the key piece) and a cap dump by LV. Domi was a 4 goal scorer.

Its really hindsight to easily blame him when he made the team activly worse then the one that finished 5th last. Everyone and there mothers expected the team to be bottom 5 this season.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

You know, the previous post started with me precisely commenting on where I think the perogative comes from. I've mentioned in previous threads how Gomez' deal happened about a week and half after Molson took ownership of the club (Not Gillett, without an e, if we're being anal about realizing what happened that year).

And no, hindsight was not needed at the time. At all. Rangers fans were rejoicing about trading a brutal cap hit who underperformed that year for our best prospect (and in fact, it allowed them to add Gaborik). Habs fans were enraged when they saw the package we dealt. Molson likely didn't ask Gainey to be that badly on the losing side of a deal. Just like, despite asking Bergevin to compete, he likely didn't ask him to trade 2 high seconds for Andrew Shaw, yet here we are discussing why that deal was brutal. At some point, you need to look at your options and if the options are awful then its also your job to present those facts to your boss.

I do chuckle at the irony behind that psychiatry comment though.

McDonagh wasn't the best prospect.

On whatever forum you went, people kept repeating that, when it was solely used as an exgeration by the usual suspects who like to use hyperbole in lieu of arguments. You had a whole bunch of people correcting them, myself included, as McD had a very average season before getting traded and Subban had just dominated the WJC and was rightfully seen, by the most astute as the Habs best prospect.

And what's the irony of the psychiatry comment? That Gomez got diagnosed right when he went downhill, which wasn't with the Rangers, and no matter your trite use of the fanbase argument, Gomez wasn't that much overpaid if you considered his playoff stats, rather than focusing solely on what can inhence your narrative, which are his season stats. When he got traded, he dominated the league (top 5) in playoff points over the 7 seasons before the trade, with 49 points in 50 games, but I guess playoff points shouldn't be mentioned when we speak of Gomez, only his season points, cuz y'know, confimation bias and yaddi yaddi yadda, and yet, I'm sure, like myself, you could easily recognized the inherent value of having, say, a guy like Pacioretty scoring at ,50 gpg clip in the playoffs instead of the season? No? Maybe? Can you see some of your, and other posters's bias here? Am i just crazy?

 

[scrubadam]

So, 9 of the last 10 cups were won by 1st and 2nd overall picks ? Good to know. Oh, And 12 of the last 14.

Yup all we got to do is avoid the other 90% of top 5 picks that don't win cups and we are golden. Let us know which exact draft its going to be when we will get the elite player that will turn this team around. We gotta hope we land on one of those 10 players and not the 34 others.

So far we are 8 years from a top 1/2 pick winning a cup, and looking at that list the time line isn't going to shrink only get longer.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

So, 9 of the last 10 cups were won by 1st and 2nd overall picks ? Good to know. Oh, And 12 of the last 14.

A Scrubadam classic. Portray a stat in the wrong framework to create a false narrative.

Only 10 of the last 44 something 1st and 2nd round picks have won cups!!!!

Yet doesn't understand that there just isn't enough cups to go around for all those 44 players.

And this can be seen by what you posted.... the vast majority of cups were won with 1st and 2md picks