Marc Bergevin - Take It Or Leave It Edition

[DAChampion]

I have to disagree.

I'd take Weber over PK everyday of the week. I knew PK was slowing down a couple years ago, but the pace that he's slowing down at is alarming to the point where I'm wondering if he has a medical condition or something. He can't carry his additional weight anymore. Both are still excellent D men, just different styles.

Drouin offers more than Sergachev which is alarming. Sergachev has been terrible this year on an All-Star team noless. Still time to go as he's young, but to this point, Adv Drouin. Both are passive and don't show much drive, but I'd rather that be in a forward than a D man.

Benn has been solid as a 3rd pairing D man. Pateryn shouldn't be in the league.

Giving up the two 2nds for Shawzy was expensive, I agree, but still love what Shaw brings to the table. Having a career year before getting hurt.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

I like what Shaw brings as well, but the fact is that a much better player, Teuvo Terevainen, was available for less, at the same time, from the same time.

Pateryn is a legitimate NHL dmen, and better than Benn. He had to be traded after his girlfriend went on the racist rant, but it still reflects poorly on the Habs that they didn't know what they had.

 

[Deebs]

I like what Shaw brings as well, but the fact is that a much better player, Teuvo Terevainen, was available for less, at the same time, from the same time.

Pateryn is a legitimate NHL dmen, and better than Benn. He had to be traded after his girlfriend went on the racist rant, but it still reflects poorly on the Habs that they didn't know what they had.

I don't know about Teuvo at the time so maybe he wasn't available to us, not sure. I did like Pateryn at the time but he hasn't progressed at all. He's a younger Benn imo. Trade off imo

 

[DAChampion]

I don't know about Teuvo at the time so maybe he wasn't available to us, not sure. I did like Pateryn at the time but he hasn't progressed at all. He's a younger Benn imo. Trade off imo

Teuvo was traded for less than Shaw was traded for, in that same summer, it might have been one or two weeks later.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't know about Teuvo at the time so maybe he wasn't available to us, not sure. I did like Pateryn at the time but he hasn't progressed at all. He's a younger Benn imo. Trade off imo

Teuvo got traded to Carolina the week before Shaw. MB missed the boat. Money to Shaw could've been used to insulate Bickell's salary and get Teraveinen.

 

[Deebs]

Teuvo was traded for less than Shaw was traded for, in that same summer, it might have been one or two weeks later.

Sounds good

 

[Habs Halifax]

We are not winning the cup until we do a proper rebuild. More years of mediocrity to come.

A proper rebuild don't exist. Ask the Oilers. There is equal risks with letting our core get older and closer to UFA vs trying to become the next Pens or Blackhawks. Look at the Lightning... great team for a while now and no cup. Leafs are next to test the Pens/Blackhawks strategy.

Kings won a cup by making several moves acquiring Carter and Richards and adding to their current core. Why can't the Habs try this while we still have a decent team. Adding Muzzin and signing Stone while we keep the top prospects we need are game changers IMO. This helps us win now and later IMO.

But you hate Price right? So I understand why you think we are mediocrity

CHL junior teams are forced into rebuild strategy cycles. They are guarenteed to loose their top assets after they turn 20. NHL teams have what they have and they are not going to liquidate several top assets for the chance of being the next Pens. Leafs traded Kessel and Phaneuf because they got tired of no playoffs and had little to lose. Habs are not in this situation... very far from it.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

A proper rebuild don't exist. Ask the Oilers. There is equal risks with letting our core get older and closer to UFA vs trying to become the next Pens or Blackhawks. Look at the Lightning... great team for a while now and no cup. Leafs are next to test the Pens/Blackhawks strategy.

Kings won a cup by making several moves acquiring Carter and Richards and adding to their current core. Why can't the Habs try this while we still have a decent team. Adding Muzzin and signing Stone while we keep the top prospects we need are game changers IMO. This helps us win now and later IMO.

But you hate Price right? So I understand why you think we are mediocrity

CHL junior teams are forced into rebuild strategy cycles. They are guarenteed to loose their top assets after they turn 20. NHL teams have what they have and they are not going to liquidate several top assets for the chance of being the next Pens. Leafs traded Kessel and Phaneuf because they got tired of no playoffs and had little to lose. Habs are not in this situation... very far from it.

Our left side of the D is way too depleted to overcome properly with trades, all the while our stock pile is decent but not decent enough to sacrifice the future for short term gain.

 

[417]

Our left side of the D is way too depleted to overcome properly with trades, all the while our stock pile is decent but not decent enough to sacrifice the future for short term gain.

I used to think this about the organizations depth, in quality, down the middle...and while there's still work to be done.

If I go back 12 months to the day, things looked a lot bleaker then they are today.

Things can change quickly.

 

[1909]

1) Trading a RD for a RD who was 4 years older was very questionable. I agree. But lets not pretend that Weber is not good. The concern is how good he is from age 31-36/37. So far, he is the Weber he was before we acquired him. Just very weird why we would make this move so based on this, it's a negative and a risky move.

2) "Not willing to re-sign Radulov". I don't like how this was worded. Bergevin started negotiating with Radulov in Dec of 2016 and it went on for months. Radulov clearly wanted to explore his options as a UFA just like Tavares did. Bergevin is only guilty for not willing to sign him for more than what Radulov signed for with Dallas. Radulov asked for more due to tax difference. You can try to squash this but Bergevin said this on record himself. Radulov choose the stars. I blame Bergevin for not signing Radulov to a 3 year deal from the get go. He should of known it would be very difficult to re-sign him to a larger deal after he proved himself.

3) Markov was offered a fair deal for a player who could not play a full season and was 39. He was likely offered $4M and another $2M in bonus if he reached previous production numbers. That was not a terrible offer and Markov should of hired an agent.

4) Drouin for Sergeachev. We made a hockey trade and we don't know who won or lost this yet. The issue some people have is we traded Sergachev around the time we lost Markov and gave up on Beaulieu (right or wrong at the time) resulting in a huge hole on LD where we signed Alzner which was a mistake. Not a terrible trade but a questionable one.

Radulov used the Habs as his spring board to his renewed NHL career. He decided to play with Benn and Seguin, instead of Patches, Galchy or Danault. I would had done the same.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Our left side of the D is way too depleted to overcome properly with trades, all the while our stock pile is decent but not decent enough to sacrifice the future for short term gain.

I think our ability to fill holes from 2019+ vs 2012+ based on current core and prospect pool is better in 2019+.

Think about our ability to hit like the Pens did with Crosby and Malkin or the Blackhawks with Toes and Kane. Look at the young core and prospects. Do you think we are built to win like the Pens, Caps, Leafs, Jets, Kings (when they won), Bruins, Preds, or Lightning?

Lets compare our team to the Preds who I think we should model our strategy on in terms of cup contenders... Lets say we make a move for Muzzin (One of Juulsen, Fleury, Ylonen, and two 2nd's) and we sign Stone. Two moves that are possible... not guaranteed but it's not a massive stretch.

I'll let you fill in the ??? and re shuffle it around as you like.

RyJo vs Kotkaniemi
Forsberg vs Stone
Bonino vs Danault
Watson vs Armia
Arvidsson vs Gallagher
Sissons vs Domi
Fiala vs Byron
??? vs Drouin
??? vs Lehkonen
??? vs Tatar
Tolvanen, ??? vs Suzuki, Poehling,

Subban vs Weber
Josi vs Petry
Ellis vs Mete
Ekholm vs Muzzin
Hamhuis, Y Weber vs Reilly, Kulak
??? vs Romanov, Brook,

Rinne vs Price
Saros vs Lindgren/Primeau

 

[Habs Halifax]

Radulov used the Habs as his spring board to his renewed NHL career. He decided to play with Benn and Seguin, instead of Patches, Galchy or Danault. I would had done the same.

Agreed. I think he would of came back to the Habs but we had to overpay substantially. Dallas gave him a good fit.

 

[1909]

Agreed. I think he would of came back to the Habs but we had to overpay substantially. Dallas gave him a good fit.

MB had a hard time dealing with Radulov's agent who was demanding 7 seasons X 7 millions $ as a starting negotiating point.

 

[Saundies]

Agreed. I think he would of came back to the Habs but we had to overpay substantially. Dallas gave him a good fit.

I don't think we had to overpay "substantially", just a little bit. Which we always tend do on players anyway, so I didn't see why a motor guy like Rads couldn't get the benefit of the doubt, either.

Nylander just got paid 6.9 a year. Radulov at 7/year isn't much of an overpay, IMO. And he would lead our team in points pretty much every year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

MB had a hard time dealing with Radulov's agent who was demanding 7 seasons X 7 millions $ as a starting negotiating point.

No doubt about it and Bergevin got frustrated by trying to negotiate a deal from Dec of 2016 to July of 2017. Radulov gave us the Tavares treatment... I'm going to explore my options and Dallas gave him the better fit.

Lesson learned... Don't sign Radulov to one year deals thinking he is the same as Semin. When elite level talent like this is interested in Montreal, sign them with term. A 3 year deal would of fit so much better. Pretty sure 3 years at $6M would of been a deal Radulov would of signed. If it didn't work, he goes back to the KHL and we void the contract like Shipachev.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I used to think this about the organizations depth, in quality, down the middle...and while there's still work to be done.

If I go back 12 months to the day, things looked a lot bleaker then they are today.

Things can change quickly.

Yeah because a #3 overall pick has changed that outlook

Any top 5 picks in sight for the habs to fill that left side with some elite talent?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think we had to overpay "substantially", just a little bit. Which we always tend do on players anyway, so I didn't see why a motor guy like Rads couldn't get the benefit of the doubt, either.

Nylander just got paid 6.9 a year. Radulov at 7/year isn't much of an overpay, IMO. And he would lead our team in points pretty much every year.

I have no idea what it would take for sure to get him back. If we are using the tax issue which Bergevin confirmed Radulov asking us to pay more to make it equal...

- $6.25M in Dallas equals $4.35M in clear pay

- $4.35M clear pay in Montreal equals around $9M salary.

- $7M salary in Montreal is $3.3M clear pay.

Just a few examples. None of us know how much more he was asking us to pay for him to stay. Do you believe Bergevin was saying the truth when Radulov ask us to pay more due to tax differences?

How would you feel if we signed him for 5 years at $8M? Maybe Radulov signs this?

 

[417]

Yeah because a #3 overall pick has changed that outlook

Yes Kotkaniemi sure changed that outlook.

Any top 5 picks in sight for the habs to fill that left side with some elite talent?

Domi also changed that outlook and he wasn't a top 5 pick

Danault has taken a step forward this year and he wasn't a top 5 pick

Suzuki also changed that outlook and he wasn't a top 5 pick

Poehling's continued and upwards trajectory of development in the AHL has also changed that outlook, he was picked 25th

McShane, Olofsson, Evans

I realize that some of these players are still long shots but i'm just saying, we didn't have this kind of depth within the organization 12 months ago.

the left side of the D doesn't look encouraging today...but as proven above, it doesn't take much for that outlook to change IF addressed properly.

Help in that area doesn't have to come exclusively via a top 5 pick.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I think our ability to fill holes from 2019+ vs 2012+ based on current core and prospect pool is better in 2019+.

Think about our ability to hit like the Pens did with Crosby and Malkin or the Blackhawks with Toes and Kane. Look at the young core and prospects. Do you think we are built to win like the Pens, Caps, Leafs, Jets, Kings (when they won), Bruins, Preds, or Lightning?

Lets compare our team to the Preds who I think we should model our strategy on in terms of cup contenders... Lets say we make a move for Muzzin (One of Juulsen, Fleury, Ylonen, and two 2nd's) and we sign Stone. Two moves that are possible... not guaranteed but it's not a massive stretch.

I'll let you fill in the ??? and re shuffle it around as you like.

RyJo vs Kotkaniemi
Forsberg vs Stone
Bonino vs Danault
Watson vs Armia
Arvidsson vs Gallagher
Sissons vs Domi
Fiala vs Byron
??? vs Drouin
??? vs Lehkonen
??? vs Tatar
Tolvanen, ??? vs Suzuki, Poehling,

Subban vs Weber
Josi vs Petry
Ellis vs Mete
Ekholm vs Muzzin
Hamhuis, Y Weber vs Reilly, Kulak
??? vs Romanov, Brook,

Rinne vs Price
Saros vs Lindgren/Primeau

Your points of comparison are bad, Sorry but it's the truth. When you align Ardvisson with Gallagher, there's a huge problem in perception. When you compare Stone with Forsberg, there's a problem. Subban and Weber, there's a problem. Josi and Petry, even more. Mete and Ellis, just wont even go there. Same with Ekholm and Muzzin. Kotka will be great, but who's to say he's garanteed to top RyJo.

Adding Muzzin and Stone will just stop us from actually doing what should be done with the left side of our defense, which is to develop it.

Thinking this team could compete for the cup with two improbable acquisitions is just begging for the same mistakes of the past to be repeated.

How many times have poster declared their grand trading and signing plans only to see the club no being able to accomplish even 50% of what is expected.

It's a fool's dream

 

[Habs Halifax]

Your points of comparison are bad, Sorry but it's the truth. When you align Ardvisson with Gallagher, there's a huge problem in perception. When you compare Stone with Forsberg, there's a problem. Subban and Weber, there's a problem. Josi and Petry, even more. Mete and Ellis, just wont even go there. Same with Ekholm and Muzzin. Kotka will be great, but who's to say he's garanteed to top RyJo.

Adding Muzzin and Stone will just stop us from actually doing what should be done with the left side of our defense, which is to develop it.

Thinking this team could compete for the cup with two improbable acquisitions is just begging for the same mistakes of the past to be repeated.

How many times have poster declared their grand trading and signing plans only to see the club no being able to accomplish even 50% of what is expected.

It's a fool's dream

If you think it's bad... provide your own list of comparisons like I asked you to if you disagreed. You do realize that it's not an exact one/one comparison cause it's impossible to mirror their team 100% right?

Talk to me in 5 years. We can look back and talk about what we should have done today. This is not the CHL where you lose your assets for sure when they are 20 and your are forced into a rebuild. There is no proper rebuild. Ask the Oilers.

The idea that we can flip Petry and Tatar while we turn it into Patch type returns every time is hope. The idea that all our top prospects become top of the line-up players is also hope and you know very well how much I like them.

 

[Scriptor]

I have no idea what it would take for sure to get him back. If we are using the tax issue which Bergevin confirmed Radulov asking us to pay more to make it equal...

- $6.25M in Dallas equals $4.35M in clear pay

- $4.35M clear pay in Montreal equals around $9M salary.

- $7M salary in Montreal is $3.3M clear pay.

Just a few examples. None of us know how much more he was asking us to pay for him to stay. Do you believe Bergevin was saying the truth when Radulov ask us to pay more due to tax differences?

How would you feel if we signed him for 5 years at $8M? Maybe Radulov signs this?

Not only is this not on topic, but you don't have the financial background to make these arguments. Laurent Duvernay-Tardif's agent explained on radio how Canadian/Quebec tax law would have enabled Bergevin to structure a deal that was primarily bonus-laden and would have been better fiscally than a deal that Radulov could have had in DAL.

The only problem I saw to this was:

A) Radulov's agent
B) Management not willing to make a sweet bonus-centered deal for Radulov like they did for Price, whatever the reason.

 

[Scriptor]

We are not winning the cup until we do a proper rebuild. More years of mediocrity to come.

Looking forward to those. Thanks.

 

[Scriptor]

I like what Shaw brings as well, but the fact is that a much better player, Teuvo Terevainen, was available for less, at the same time, from the same time.

Pateryn is a legitimate NHL dmen, and better than Benn. He had to be traded after his girlfriend went on the racist rant, but it still reflects poorly on the Habs that they didn't know what they had.

Benn has been much better than Pateryn this season, regardless of what you say. Both are secondary pieces of a D-Corps, though, so not all that important.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not only is this not on topic, but you don't have the financial background to make these arguments. Laurent Duvernay-Tardif's agent explained on radio how Canadian/Quebec tax law would have enabled Bergevin to structure a deal that was primarily bonus-laden and would have been better fiscally than a deal that Radulov could have had in DAL.

The only problem I saw to this was:

A) Radulov's agent
B) Management not willing to make a sweet bonus-centered deal for Radulov like they did for Price, whatever the reason.

I don't care if you think it is on topic or not. This is a Bergevin thread and it's about how he failed in the summer of 2017 and the reasons why.

A few questions...

1) Do you believe Bergevin was telling the truth when he said Radulov ask for more money due to taxes? There was a interview he gave at the beginning of the year where he talked about the Radulov, Markov, and Alzner situations in depth. Do you believe he was telling the truth or not?

2) Do you believe Radulov didn't give us the Tavares treatment where he wanted to explore his options and found a better fit in Dallas?

3) Do you believe that Bergevin would not give him 5 years at $7M (was that you who said he would take this kind of deal right?) and he would not go above $6.25M cause Dallas was offering the same?

Yeah, we do have bonus money up front advantage if Molson wants to agree to it. It's not that simple to say we can offer this to all players. Molson has to approve it. Maybe Radulov didn't value this cause he wanted to invest most of his money anyways? Who knows.

What's funny is I got attacked for saying Radulov is going to want a max deal from us in order to stay and taxes were an issue between Dallas and Montreal. Then Bergevin backed me up in his 1/1 interview at the beginning of the season this year.

Once Dallas came into the picture, he was as good as gone. Blame who you want to blame. I'm 100% confident Bergevin wanted him back just as bad as our fan base did. It didn't work out. I personally blame Bergevin for not going after term from the get go and I didn't like that 1 year deal cause I didn't think Radulov = Semin.

 

[G0bias]

I used to think this about the organizations depth, in quality, down the middle...and while there's still work to be done.

If I go back 12 months to the day, things looked a lot bleaker then they are today.

Things can change quickly.

Sure, a 3rd overall pick and a former 3rd overall pick to trade should do it.

 

[AlexGretzchenvid]

Love Markov and think that the team did him dirty, but you don't ruin a franchise by not signing your pushing-40 former #1 defenceman whose, let's be honest, a sure shot to miss 20-30 games in any given season.

How do we know markov wanted to leave or not. It was time for him to go anyways ( he was falling all over the ice, really timely turnovers, he may habe wanted to go to the KHL ) They didnt trade him because he didnt want to go, thats solid. Then he walks making it look suspicious to some loyal fans.

Maybe.. Maybe..