Marc Bergevin Part II: Better Than Expected

[thegoalie39]

Curious to what people think is the top 5 worse moves Bergevin has made.

1) Signing Alzner
2) Weber for PK trade
3) Not willing to re-sign Radulov at a higher AAV than what he got with the Stars
4) Offering the 39 year old Markov a base plus performance contract and Markov bolts to the KHL.
5) Trading two 2nd's for Shaw

Bergevin's worst moves were not having a plan and not having the courage to go all in and try and win cups when Montreal was a top team and Price was MVP,and not mortgaging part of his future to get a center to play ahead of Plekanec and DD.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Bergevin's worst moves were not having a plan and not having the courage to go all in and try and win cups when Montreal was a top team and Price was MVP,and not mortgaging part of his future to get a center to play ahead of Plekanec and DD.

He had the courage. He didn't have the assets to use to get in on trades like RyJo, Carter, Richards, ROR, etc. Bergevin started with a darn good core but with missing holes. Galchenyuk was a solid pick but didn't turn into the center we needed. Our top prospects were Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi and we needed them. The quality after that was not very good. The 2012 and 2013 drafts were a huge dissapointments based on the quantity and quality of picks we had. Will 2018 and 2019 turn into the same? I'm not banking on it.

I will admit that he fell into the trap thinking we were better than we were in 2012. We should of did a rebuild back in 2012. Fast forward to today and our situation is better IMO. We still have a solid core but we are still missing two key pieces. But this time we have one of the best prospect pools in the league. Lets see how this plays out this time.

 

[Andy]

Douglas Murray was so much fun to watch though.

BOOM !

BOOM !

BOOM !

If you were a fan of an opposing team. Yeah, he was fun to watch.

 

[Andy]

1) Briere was a 2 year deal. He played one season for us and he was traded for PAP who played for us for one year. Longer contract? NO. I don't consider this terribly bad. It just didn't work out and the term was right. Completely different story with Alzner. He should of been 2 or 3 year term, not 5.

2) Murray was signed for 1 year man. Who cares.

These are not considered top 5 bad moves IMO.

Signing a player who was clearly done, then trading him for another player who was clearly done, on a longer contract, and then buying out that player, is a dumb sequence from events. From a pure management and talent acquisition perspective, it was awful, regardless of whether it didn't impact the club.

Thinking Murray was an nhl player worthy of a contract and worthy of minutes alongside your number 1 defender is pretty awful.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Signing a player who was clearly done, then trading him for another player who was clearly done, on a longer contract, and then buying out that player, is a dumb sequence from events. From a pure management and talent acquisition perspective, it was awful, regardless of whether it didn't impact the club.

Thinking Murray was an nhl player worthy of a contract and worthy of minutes alongside your number 1 defender is pretty awful.

2 and 1 year deals. Worth the risk. If he did nothing, you would equally use this against him.

 

[Frenchy]

Guys, change the tone of the conversation .
I had to take actions on some comments

 

[Andy]

2 and 1 year deals. Worth the risk. If he did nothing, you would equally use this against him.

Signing players who are clearly washed up is not worth the risk. It's called opportunity cost. Briere, PAP, Murray were all dead weight, in terms of taking up roster space, ice time and cap space from other players who it would have perhaps been more worth making an investment in.

Also, a GM should in fact be blamed for doing nothing and for signing clearly awful players. One action doesn't absolve the other. When faced with two bad decisions, choosing one doesn't make the other one better. They are both bad decisions.

And for a team who desperately needed offense in 2013 and 2014, doing nothing and signing/trade for Briere and PAP are equally bad decisions.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Signing players who are clearly washed up is not worth the risk. It's called opportunity cost. Briere, PAP, Murray were all dead weight, in terms of taking up roster space, ice time and cap space from other players who it would have perhaps been more worth making an investment in.

Also, a GM should in fact be blamed for doing nothing and for signing clearly awful players. One action doesn't absolve the other. When faced with two bad decisions, choosing one doesn't make the other one better. They are both bad decisions.

And for a team who desperately needed offense in 2013 and 2014, doing nothing and signing/trade for Briere and PAP are equally bad decisions.

I still don't think it's a top 5 bad move.

 

[Andy]

I still don't think it's a top 5 bad move.

Briere/PAP debacle is easily debatable along with the Markov situation.

When you are in desperate need of offense, when it's the number one thing holding you back, and you think a clearly finished Briere is the solution, it's awful.

 

[DAChampion]

The Briere signing was not that bad. He did help in the playoffs.

Him carrying the torch though ...

 

[Habs Halifax]

Briere/PAP debacle is easily debatable along with the Markov situation.

When you are in desperate need of offense, when it's the number one thing holding you back, and you think a clearly finished Briere is the solution, it's awful.

If there was a better solution, he would of went after it.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

If there was a better solution, he would of went after it.

Like he went after Karl Alzner?

Benefit of doubt is all fine, when the person deserves the benefit.

You simply chose to believe what you said, but we don't know one way or another.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Like he went after Karl Alzner?

Benefit of doubt is all fine, when the person deserves the benefit.

You simply chose to believe what you said, but we don't know one way or another.

Correct and I think you are misreading the narrative. This started by a top 5 worse moves. I had Alzner at #1. Do you think the Briere or Murray moves belong in the top 5? What's your top 5?

1) Signing Alzner
2) Weber for PK trade
3) Not willing to re-sign Radulov at a higher AAV than what he got with the Stars
4) Offering the 39 year old Markov a base plus performance contract and Markov bolts to the KHL.
5) Trading two 2nd's for Shaw

The only move I consider a disaster is Alzner. The rest are meh and don't hurt us that much. I guess I can revise the list into 2 major bad moves. With me, those are the two that hurt the most. Would we have gotten Kotkaniemi if we had Radulov last season? No idea

1) Alzner
2) Not willing to spend a bit more to get Radulov back.

 

[Andy]

If there was a better solution, he would of went after it.

I'm sure everyone seeks the best solution possible. You only get credit when you actualize that solution.

The solutions he pursued didn't work out, predictably so.

 

[MC94]

If you were a fan of an opposing team. Yeah, he was fun to watch.

Here since your such a big fan

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm sure everyone seeks the best solution possible. You only get credit when you actualize that solution.

The solutions he pursued didn't work out, predictably so.

I don't consider a 2 year deal at $4M for a 35/36 year old a terrible move. Briere provided decent offense for us in the playoffs. Bergevin knew the risks and I think it was worth the shot. It could of worked but it didn't. 2 year deal... we move on. Alzner for 5 years is a massive problem.

Tell me this? Lets say Bergevin does nothing with our cap space this summer cause he avoids the Briere type signing. Would you not criticize him for not being able to sign Stone or Panarin?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Correct and I think you are misreading the narrative. This started by a top 5 worse moves. I had Alzner at #1. Do you think the Briere or Murray moves belong in the top 5? What's your top 5?

1) Signing Alzner
2) Weber for PK trade
3) Not willing to re-sign Radulov at a higher AAV than what he got with the Stars
4) Offering the 39 year old Markov a base plus performance contract and Markov bolts to the KHL.
5) Trading two 2nd's for Shaw

The only move I consider a disaster is Alzner. The rest are meh and don't hurt us that much. I guess I can revise the list into 2 major bad moves. With me, those are the two that hurt the most. Would we have gotten Kotkaniemi if we had Radulov last season? No idea

1) Alzner
2) Not willing to spend a bit more to get Radulov back.

Both the Eller and Shaw trade together should be put higher. We sacrificed rank position for sideway moves and limited our opportunities at drafting what were seen as possible draft steals (not in hindsight) who incidently ended-up pretty good. That whole week was a disaster, redeemed only slightly by signing Radu the week after.

Trading Subban killed a great deal of our transition. It wasnt needed. As noted by many back then, Silver Spoon Maximillian Poutteretty should've been shipped out instead, and again, without hindsight, we were right as proven by the sudden rise in team spirit after his departure last summer.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Both the Eller and Shaw trade together should be put higher. We sacrificed rank position for sideway moves and limited our opportunities at drafting what were seen as possible draft steals (not in hindsight) who incidently ended-up pretty good. That whole week was a disaster, redeemed only slightly by signing Radu the week after.

I don't mind the Shaw trade personally. But I think DD should of been moved instead of Eller. Bergevin attacked Subban and Eller talking about "Character" and he was wrong in the summer of 16.

Shaw was needed on the RW side. We lacked RW's behind Gallagher.

But yeah... DD should of been moved for a bag of pucks.

 

[Andy]

I don't consider a 2 year deal at $4M for a 35/36 year old a terrible move. Briere provided decent offense for us in the playoffs. Bergevin knew the risks and I think it was worth the shot. It could of worked but it didn't. 2 year deal... we move on. Alzner for 5 years is a massive problem.

Tell me this? Lets say Bergevin does nothing with our cap space this summer cause he avoids the Briere type signing. Would you not criticize him for not being able to sign Stone or Panarin?

It really depends:

If he made an honest effort to do so, i.e., offer competitive money, I would not criticize him because signing a player, even with a competitive offer, is ultimately determined by the preference of the player.

If he approaches them with a Markov/Radulov buy a dog type of attitude/low ball, then he will deserve criticism.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't mind the Shaw trade personally. But I think DD should of been moved instead of Eller. Bergevin attacked Subban and Eller talking about "Character" and he was wrong in the summer of 16.

Shaw was needed on the RW side. We lacked RW's behind Gallagher.

But yeah... DD should of been moved for a bag of pucks.

The Shaw trade wasnt needed. Furthermore, he paid premium price while Chicago were in a squeeze.

I would've greatly prefered keeping those picks.

That trade was just professional masturbation by Bergevin.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It really depends:

If he made an honest effort to do so, I would not criticize him because signing a player is ultimately determined by the preference of the player.

If he approaches them with a Markov/Radulov buy a dog type of attitude/low ball, then he will deserve criticism.

We won't know though. We only will know if we get a player or we don't. How it develops or fails is not info we typically get.

The one thing we have going for us is a positive team direction, a good core of young players and vets, and a top prospect pool. Stone would be nice but does he consider playing with the Habs against the Sens? Does he want this kind of attention? This concerns me and likely is a dream.

It's very possible we still have lots of cap space heading into next season. I support keeping it for the right move at the right time. We don't need to spend our cap space cause we are Montreal and we should. Spend it on the right players or don't spend it at all.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The Shaw trade wasnt needed. Furthermore, he paid premium price while Chicago were in a squeeze.

I would've greatly prefered keeping those picks.

That trade was just professional *********ion by Bergevin.

We disagree on Shaw. He was needed on RW. Two 2nd's? I think its not terrible and we don't know if other teams were in the mix. Something tells me we were not the only team. Shaw is not done with us yet and my only concern is him staying healthy.

I would of been OK with either keeping the picks or Shaw. I don't consider this a bad move. But when Eller was traded over DD? That was questionable.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

We disagree on Shaw. He was needed on RW. Two 2nd's? I think its not terrible and we don't know if other teams were in the mix. Something tells me we were not the only team. Shaw is not done with us yet and my only concern is him staying healthy.

I would of been OK with either keeping the picks or Shaw. I don't consider this a bad move. But when Eller was traded over DD? That was questionable.

I don't care if there was someone else, it was still too much to pay. For crying out loud just a week before Chicago had sacrificed TT just to get rid of the Bickell contract. That's just how much they were in a squeeze.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[thegoalie39]

He had the courage. He didn't have the assets to use to get in on trades like RyJo, Carter, Richards, ROR, etc. Bergevin started with a darn good core but with missing holes. Galchenyuk was a solid pick but didn't turn into the center we needed. Our top prospects were Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi and we needed them. The quality after that was not very good. The 2012 and 2013 drafts were a huge dissapointments based on the quantity and quality of picks we had. Will 2018 and 2019 turn into the same? I'm not banking on it.

I will admit that he fell into the trap thinking we were better than we were in 2012. We should of did a rebuild back in 2012. Fast forward to today and our situation is better IMO. We still have a solid core but we are still missing two key pieces. But this time we have one of the best prospect pools in the league. Lets see how this plays out this time.

He had McCarron and Scherbak who were just drafted plus his 2015 1st round pick.

 

[blarneylad]

Correct and I think you are misreading the narrative. This started by a top 5 worse moves. I had Alzner at #1. Do you think the Briere or Murray moves belong in the top 5? What's your top 5?

1) Signing Alzner
2) Weber for PK trade
3) Not willing to re-sign Radulov at a higher AAV than what he got with the Stars
4) Offering the 39 year old Markov a base plus performance contract and Markov bolts to the KHL.
5) Trading two 2nd's for Shaw

The only move I consider a disaster is Alzner. The rest are meh and don't hurt us that much. I guess I can revise the list into 2 major bad moves. With me, those are the two that hurt the most. Would we have gotten Kotkaniemi if we had Radulov last season? No idea

1) Alzner
2) Not willing to spend a bit more to get Radulov back.

In hindsight if those are his 5 worst moves he really hasn't been that bad afterall lol

Weber has been playing great hockey for Montreal. That trade may favour the Preds but only so slightly. Radulov should have been resigned, but to me he showed his true colours which was that he is a gun for hire.

Shaw has been a very serviceable NHL player. De La Rose, Fucale were former 2nd rounders that amounted to little to nothing. Lehkonen is earning his stripes and is still young his best hockey is only beginning. It was a bit of a wash since he moved Eller for two 2nds.

Letting Markov walk hurt more emotionally because he was such a longstanding Canadien, but his best hockey was long long gone.

Alzner..well that was a bad one.

My critism of Bergevin doesn't lie with single moves, but the collection of them. He let Radulov and Markov walk the same summer and replaced them with Hemsky and Streit. That was terrible he got caught with his pants down on that one.

Trading a LD prospect for a LW in Drouin was also a head scratcher because at the time we had Pacioretty and Galchenyuk already as LW.