Marc Bergevin: Even a broken clock is right twice a day Edition

[groovejuice]

Bergevin had a focus in terms of negotiation approach and he clearly disrespected Markov. Markov also should of known that the money he left on the table in the previous contracts held no value to a NHL GM. What a mess of a situation. Sad really

The optics are considerably worse due to the Alzner deal and the deal to get Plekanec to 1000.

Bergevin's hardass negotiations was also curiously timed to cooincide with the expulsion of every Russian player, save the one he put on waivers 2 weeks ago.

If it quacks like a duck...

 

[Habs Halifax]

The optics are considerably worse due to the Alzner deal and the deal to get Plekanec to 1000.

Bergevin's hardass negotiations was also curiously timed to cooincide with the expulsion of every Russian player, save the one he put on waivers 2 weeks ago.

If it quacks like a duck...

It's clear to me Bergevin was very prepared to move on and try a different route (like it or not). A road he went down and got lucky in terms of creating a situation to trade Patch and drafting Kotkaniemi. He got lucky.

I don't hate the guy but that 2017 off season was a mess. I don't have confidence in his contract negotiations skills for players who are schedule to be UFA.

What's funny is he tried to say Radulov at $7.5M for 5 years was more riskier vs Alzner at $4.625M for 5 years. What a dummy. He should of signed Radulov to a 3 year deal from the get go.

 

[groovejuice]

It's clear to me Bergevin was very prepared to move on and try a different route (like it or not). A road he went down and got lucky in terms of creating a situation to trade Patch and drafting Kotkaniemi. He got lucky.

I don't hate the guy but that 2017 off season was a mess. I don't have confidence in his contract negotiations skills for players who are schedule to be UFA.

What's funny is he tried to say Radulov at $7.5M for 5 years was more riskier vs Alzner at $4.625M for 5 years. What a dummy. He should of signed Radulov to a 3 year deal from the get go.

Contrary to how it may appear, I don't hate Bergevin either. I simply don't like his team building strategies and his confounding inconsistencies with the treatment of individual players.

It's a lack of respect for his overall performance as an NHL GM. We could have done so much better.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Contrary to how it may appear, I don't hate Bergevin either. I simply don't like his team building strategies and his confounding inconsistencies with the treatment of individual players.

It's a lack of respect for his overall performance as an NHL GM. We could have done so much better.

What concerns me with him is his inability to make the full commitment with whatever plan he has... Burke did this with the Leafs remember. He said rebuild and didn't

1) He said he would build through the draft when hired in 2012. It took him 6 years to get a top 10 or top 5 prospect pool (A legit prospect pool). Not the guys we had in 2012 where it was Beaulieu, Tinordi, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and then major drop off after that due to the lack of picks from the 4 previous drafts.

2) We won 3 division titles in 5 years on the backs of Price, Suban, Patch, Pleky, Markov. He failed to improve that core and continued with the middle of the pack strategy.

3) We are in a position today where we need to rebuild vs have middle of the pack strategy. What is he doing? He's doing the same thing as he did in 2012. A bit different cause the prospect pool is much better. I rather us trade Petry, Byron, Tatar for futures to accelerate our rebuild vs "try to make the playoffs where anything can happen strategy"

His plan is to re-tool and rebuild on the fly. Very curious to see what he does in the next 12 months. Something tells me he gets fooled by our current position in the standings.

But I will say this. His past failures likely made him a better GM. He is not terrible but he is typical in terms of GM management. We need someone smart with a Stanley cup in mind, not a typical GM looking to make depth move after depth move and the false playoff hopes of going on a magical run

 

[groovejuice]

What concerns me with him is his inability to make the full commitment with whatever plan he has... Burke did this with the Leafs remember. He said rebuild and didn't

1) He said he would build through the draft when hired in 2012. It took him 6 years to get a top 10 or top 5 prospect pool (A legit prospect pool). Not the guys we had in 2012 where it was Beaulieu, Tinordi, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and then major drop off after that due to the lack of picks from the 4 previous drafts.

2) We won 3 division titles in 5 years on the backs of Price, Suban, Patch, Pleky, Markov. He failed to improve that core and continued with the middle of the pack strategy.

3) We are in a position today where we need to rebuild vs have middle of the pack strategy. What is he doing? He's doing the same thing as he did in 2012. A bit different cause the prospect pool is much better. I rather us trade Petry, Byron, Tatar for futures to accelerate our rebuild vs "try to make the playoffs where anything can happen strategy"

His plan is to re-tool and rebuild on the fly. Very curious to see what he does in the next 12 months. Something tells me he gets fooled by our current position in the standings.

But I will say this. His past failures likely made him a better GM. He is not terrible but he is typical in terms of GM management. We need someone smart with a Stanley cup in mind, not a typical GM looking to make depth move after depth move and the false playoff hopes of going on a magical run

"Get to the playoffs and anything can happen" is a pitiful strategy at the NHL level.

 

[Habs Halifax]

"Get to the playoffs and anything can happen" is a pitiful strategy at the NHL level.

So many GM's have this strategy. I suspect ownership gets in the way of rebuilds and most teams trip and fall into rebuild years. A smart President/GM identifies opportunity and selling assets to accelerate rebuilds. Habs are in that territory clearly. Decent middle 10 NHL team depth and a top 10 or top 5 prospect pool.

Why not improve the prospect pool even further by engaging in trades using Petry, Tatar, Byron, Shaw. Well cause the Habs management have their focus on a rebound/pride year. They want to prove the doubters wrong that they are not as bad as some say we were. Does this help us win a cup in the next decade? NO

We are not the only team that has a GM like ours. A lot of teams have the same strategy as we do. Doesn't mean I like it. I'm just trying to understand it.

 

[BLONG7]

"Get to the playoffs and anything can happen" is a pitiful strategy at the NHL level.

This is Bergevin's quote, a couple of seasons after Mol$on bought the team, and Mol$on's quote was Winning The Cup was the goal...these two guys could work for Cirque De soleil...Even there, surely the clowns talk to one another before they say something stupid...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Still, this Radulov and Markov talking?

With hindsight thank god he ****ed up (even if I don't completely agree he ****ed up).

Habs are much better off with Alzner for another 3 years.

 

[Natey]

I've said this before.. I actually feel bad for Alzner. Dude played EXACTLY like he has his entire career.. the game just keeps getting faster. In reality, he probably has no idea what he's done wrong. His last season in Washington is no different than what he's playing like now.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not the one who made the baseball analogy and i didnt say he was 6 for 7...... but i would say more like 3 for 4 with 2 walk....loll..

Which 4 summers do you consider were hits?
18-19 - Yes.
17-18 - No.
16-17 - If you're a fan of Weber trade + getting Radu, then Yes.
15-16 - What did he do again? Kassian and Semin? - Big fail of a summer again.
14-15 - What did he even do? Traded for Parenteau and signed Sekac. Got Gilbert a year too late.that was his answer to how to improve us after making the ECF. - Fail.
13-14 - Definitely bad with signing Briere-Murray-Parros. No.
12-13 - Did close to nothing. I mean, applauding him for buying out Gomez? No. Hiring a bunch of morons overturns any of the ''good'' he had done. At best this is a push year.

I give Bergevin 1 big summer, I can concede that some prefer Weber to Subban and adding Radu was big. So could go as far as giving him 2 good summers. First is a push. That gives him 4 bad ones.

I don't see how anybody gives him just one bad summer.

 

[Kriss E]

Agreed...but so you said, he felt personally insulted, do you think you could step down from your pedestal for one second and perhaps acknowledge that those feelings MIGHT be tied into the fact he negotiated this deal himself?

I mean, just for one second...after that you can go back to dismissing everyone else opinions that aren't your own.

How about you stick to the facts instead? You, or I, or anybody else, have no idea what were said during the negotiations, so I'm not going to play this speculation game. I'll stick to what I know and that is Markov saying he felt disrespected, and seeing our GM make an ass of himself on live TV giving Radu-Markov a first come first serve message.
Honestly, just his message on TV is enough to realize Bergevin poorly handled this.

Again, blame game is your thing...I don't care in this particular situation.

Alzner contract is square in him...I've got no issues saying MB ****ed that one all up.

But the Markov situation, I don't care or need to blame anyone.

They each had their own interest in mind and neither seemed willing to compromise.

That's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

You actually have no idea what went on during the negotiations, you just make a bunch of speculations that make you reach this conclusion.
You just take the fact Markov had no agent and so, he just couldn't handle words being said during a negotiation...as if he'd never have to cope with criticism playing in Mtl his entire career.
Lol.

FYI, players get agents because they are shrewed negotiators and handle the paperwork. Their job is specifically to get the best deal for their clients. They get paid for that. They're not there to be used as a buffer for criticism for 39yo vets. I don't really follow what you think Bergevin said to Markov that made him feel disrespected when he otherwise wouldn't have been with an agent?...

 

[Kriss E]

I don't see anybody saying we've leaped from terrible to contender. "Better than we thought" doesn't mean we've arrived; it just means we're a couple of steps ahead on the journey. That's good news. How else does a team become a contender if not by incremental steps? We were terrible; now we're decent/good. Next step is good, followed by contender.

Sure..but the discussion isn't about whether we are better than we thought or contender...It's about whether we need more high end talent through draft or we have enough to build on.
I think we need another high selection.

Yeah, I know we need top end talent to get to those levels. That's why I've been pushing the idea of trading up in the draft. It's the only way I think we can get top-end talent, because the reality is that we're probably not going to finish low enough to get it organically. Like it or not, the Habs aren't a bad team. So instead, I'm advocating selling vets along with our 1st for a higher 1st. Forget the trade deadline -- the only buyers are playoff teams with late picks. I'm suggesting waiting for the off-season and reaching out to teams who are stocked with prospects and need some success. Teams like Philadelphia, Edmonton, Arizona, New Jersey, St Louis (Buffalo), etc -- those GMs are done with rebuilding and want to win. They might be open to trading their 1st-round pick for ours if they can also add Petry, Weber, or even Byron and Tatar to their roster.

Well we are on the same page Lshap...
I've been saying we should trade Weber to Buffalo or Colorado for Stl's or Ott's 1st picks.
I also have suggested moving Byron, Petry and Tatar. So basically, we said the same thing.

This team doesn't have enough talent, two big key guys we rely on, Price and Weber, are older.
If Domi keeps it up, he will have a massive raise very soon. There is the very real possibility of another lockout happening...We need to add another 18-19yo high end that we will be able to control for a long while. I'm not really interested in signing a late 20s free agents to an 8 year deal right now.

 

[417]

How about you stick to the facts instead? You, or I, or anybody else, have no idea what were said during the negotiations, so I'm not going to play this speculation game.

Yet oddly enough - between you and I, you're the only who has qualified that negotiation as an unmitigated disaster from Bergevin's point of view.

So which is?

On one hand, you've stated several times Bergevin is to blame...

On the other, you said no one has any idea of what was said during negotiations (which I agree with, hence why i've SPECULATED).

So of course you're not going to play the speculation game, until it's convenient for your argument. When it's not, you tell me to stop speculating.

Shocking stuff.

I'll stick to what I know and that is Markov saying he felt disrespected, and seeing our GM make an ass of himself on live TV giving Radu-Markov a first come first serve message.
Honestly, just his message on TV is enough to realize Bergevin poorly handled this.

Exhibit A of what I was just referring too...you don't want to play the speculation game.

Until it's convenient and it's always convenient to throw shade at the GM isn't it?

You actually have no idea what went on during the negotiations, you just make a bunch of speculations that make you reach this conclusion.You just take the fact Markov had no agent and so, he just couldn't handle words being said during a negotiation...as if he'd never have to cope with criticism playing in Mtl his entire career.
Lol.

I'm speculating based on the information I have available - just like you did.

Why are you allowed to work under different rules than I?

I also haven't made a "bunch" of speculations...I made exactly ONE.

That a player who publicly stated he felt disrespected, MAY have felt so because he negotiated the deal himself. This is what I think may have transpired, I never stated it is a fact, it's what I think based on the information I have.

I don't see what's so outlandish about that. It seems like a reasonable conclusion (which doesn't indicate it is fact btw) based on his comments.

Honestly - you could have saved us both a lot of time by just saying.

You're allowed to speculate and i'm not.

FYI, players get agents because they are shrewed negotiators and handle the paperwork. Their job is specifically to get the best deal for their clients. They get paid for that. They're not there to be used as a buffer for criticism for 39yo vets. I don't really follow what you think Bergevin said to Markov that made him feel disrespected when he otherwise wouldn't have been with an agent?...

Shouldn't you be asking YOURSELF that question since you're the one who has contended that Bergevin ****ed up negotiations because Markov felt disrespected?

 

[417]

This is Bergevin's quote, a couple of seasons after Mol$on bought the team, and Mol$on's quote was Winning The Cup was the goal...these two guys could work for Cirque De soleil...Even there, surely the clowns talk to one another before they say something stupid...

That's a quote you can attribute to any GM, in any sport, in any league.

 

[Hfbsux]

Brodeur- interesting choice, I don't think he and Lou did the last contract with St Louis after the Devils let him walk as a UFA. Kinda fits the Markov situation. Aging veteran not resigned by the team he played his whole career for.

Exactly what I thought when I read the comment. Really weak argument.

 

[BLONG7]

That's a quote you can attribute to any GM, in any sport, in any league.

True, but we are talking about The Montreal Canadiens, in the NHL.......and that's not acceptable for the organization, or it didn't used to be until we started hiring losers with lower standards.

 

[417]

True, but we are talking about The Montreal Canadiens, in the NHL.......and that's not acceptable for the organization, or it didn't used to be until we started hiring losers with lower standards.

It's just a cliché quote that I bet every single GM in the NHL has repeated in some form or fashion.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Which 4 summers do you consider were hits?
18-19 - Yes.
17-18 - No.
16-17 - If you're a fan of Weber trade + getting Radu, then Yes.
15-16 - What did he do again? Kassian and Semin? - Big fail of a summer again.
14-15 - What did he even do? Traded for Parenteau and signed Sekac. Got Gilbert a year too late.that was his answer to how to improve us after making the ECF. - Fail.
13-14 - Definitely bad with signing Briere-Murray-Parros. No.
12-13 - Did close to nothing. I mean, applauding him for buying out Gomez? No. Hiring a bunch of morons overturns any of the ''good'' he had done. At best this is a push year.

I give Bergevin 1 big summer, I can concede that some prefer Weber to Subban and adding Radu was big. So could go as far as giving him 2 good summers. First is a push. That gives him 4 bad ones.

I don't see how anybody gives him just one bad summer.

I think he had one very bad one (Summer of 17). One very good one (Summer of 18). Not sure about the summer of 16 where we swapped a RD for a RD who was 4 years older ($1M cheaper) and we were able to acquire Radulov. I wouldn't say this was bad or good.

The rest of the off seasons were meh. But are they bad? I just wonder what our roster would of looked like from 2012+ if we had the prospect pool we have today in 2012. There is some factor in our inability to get in on ROR, RyJo, Duchene, etc cause our prospect pool was shit for so long.

 

[Censored Toad]

Which 4 summers do you consider were hits?
18-19 - Yes.
17-18 - No.
16-17 - If you're a fan of Weber trade + getting Radu, then Yes.
15-16 - What did he do again? Kassian and Semin? - Big fail of a summer again.
14-15 - What did he even do? Traded for Parenteau and signed Sekac. Got Gilbert a year too late.that was his answer to how to improve us after making the ECF. - Fail.
13-14 - Definitely bad with signing Briere-Murray-Parros. No.
12-13 - Did close to nothing. I mean, applauding him for buying out Gomez? No. Hiring a bunch of morons overturns any of the ''good'' he had done. At best this is a push year.

I give Bergevin 1 big summer, I can concede that some prefer Weber to Subban and adding Radu was big. So could go as far as giving him 2 good summers. First is a push. That gives him 4 bad ones.

I don't see how anybody gives him just one bad summer.

Very fair assessment Kriss E, however it may be worth noting that the summer for weber and rads... rads was option 2 after lucic failed to do us a favor and sign in Edmonton. If we had missed rads and gotten lucic.... well..... shhhheeeeiiiit

course the great loyal bergie went all mob boss like and played hardball with rads... resulting in a net loss to us.

 

[BLONG7]

It's just a cliché quote that I bet every single GM in the NHL has repeated in some form or fashion.

That may be, but those words should not be spoken on behalf of the Habs...it's sad how the standards have become so low.

 

[thegoalie39]

I think he had one very bad one (Summer of 17). One very good one (Summer of 18). Not sure about the summer of 16 where we swapped a RD for a RD who was 4 years older ($1M cheaper) and we were able to acquire Radulov. I wouldn't say this was bad or good.

The rest of the off seasons were meh. But are they bad? I just wonder what our roster would of looked like from 2012+ if we had the prospect pool we have today in 2012. There is some factor in our inability to get in on ROR, RyJo, Duchene, etc cause our prospect pool was **** for so long.

Yes,that is true prospect pool was not very deep,but you could always acquire a center if you were willing to pay the price with 1st round picks....when Spezza was traded after the 2014 season,Dallas got him for Chiasson to nothing prospects and a second......after the 2o16 season Zibanejad was traded for Brassard...Montreal could have offered Eller and a 2017 1st.....the year Eric Staal was traded was the 2016 trade deadline that was the year Price was hurt so no point getting anybody no chance to win anyways with Condon and Scrivens.

 

[Miller Time]

Very fair assessment Kriss E, however it may be worth noting that the summer for weber and rads... rads was option 2 after lucic failed to do us a favor and sign in Edmonton. If we had missed rads and gotten lucic.... well..... shhhheeeeiiiit

course the great loyal bergie went all mob boss like and played hardball with rads... resulting in a net loss to us.

indeed... well documented and yet another instance of MB benefiting as a result of his inability to execute, or outright failure, of his intended plan.

it's not a stretch to say that his "good" summers were as much about dumb luck and law of averages, than of any actual intended success.

the long list of failed intentional moves, on the other hand, solidly validates the perception that he is in over his head as an NHL gm.

 

[Kriss E]

Very fair assessment Kriss E, however it may be worth noting that the summer for weber and rads... rads was option 2 after lucic failed to do us a favor and sign in Edmonton. If we had missed rads and gotten lucic.... well..... shhhheeeeiiiit

course the great loyal bergie went all mob boss like and played hardball with rads... resulting in a net loss to us.

Yes..well I don't consider that summer to be a good one because I dislike the Subban vs Weber trade, but for those that do like it, I can see how they'd give him a thumbs up for that summer.

 

[Kriss E]

I think he had one very bad one (Summer of 17). One very good one (Summer of 18). Not sure about the summer of 16 where we swapped a RD for a RD who was 4 years older ($1M cheaper) and we were able to acquire Radulov. I wouldn't say this was bad or good.

The rest of the off seasons were meh. But are they bad? I just wonder what our roster would of looked like from 2012+ if we had the prospect pool we have today in 2012. There is some factor in our inability to get in on ROR, RyJo, Duchene, etc cause our prospect pool was **** for so long.

Our prospect pool in 2012 was pretty good. We were named the biggest winners of that draft. People were excited man. Galch-Collberg-Thrower-Bozon-Vail-Hudon-Nystrom....people were all super excited about those picks.
Right now, I'd say our pool is better, namely because of Suzuki. The rest of our prospects...I'm not particularly excited over. All this excitement over Ryan Poe...the guy only has three goals this year so far, in freaking college hockey. Doesn't mean I think he'll flop, but maybe people should hold back a bit.
I was hoping Mete becomes our version of Krug...he's very far from that. I hope they keep him in the AHL all year, hopefully it's not too late for him.

I'm not as high on our pool as many people here seem to be. I like Suzuki...after him, Poe and Mete are our best ones and they have a lot of work to do.

 

[Lshap]

indeed... well documented and yet another instance of MB benefiting as a result of his inability to execute, or outright failure, of his intended plan.

it's not a stretch to say that his "good" summers were as much about dumb luck and law of averages, than of any actual intended success.

the long list of failed intentional moves, on the other hand, solidly validates the perception that he is in over his head as an NHL gm.

I find the 'dumb luck' argument unconvincing. The obvious rebuttal: if Bergevin's good moves are due to dumb luck, then his bad moves can be dismissed as bad luck. Fairer to say it was the same evaluation process that chose well with Domi, Tatar, Radulov, etc. just as they blew it with Alzner, Hemsky, Semin, etc. Credit -- and blame -- where it's due.

The less obvious rebuttal: do we know which UFAs were approached by which GM? Of course not. Every GM had a list of UFAs to pursue. We just have no idea who was on those lists. So what makes the Radulov/Lucic negotiations any different or luckier than the hundreds of other UFA talks going on behind the scenes?