Marc Bergevin: Apocalypse Soon Edition (XIII)

[Zam Boni]

The Habs used six D men vs the Caps, Weber, Chiarot, Petry, Folin, Oullet and Kulak. If we exclude Folin, since he is undrafted, the average draft position for this group is 73, so basically a mid third rounder.
Petry, picked at 45 leads the group.

Does draft position among D men (the forward group would probably look a bit better) tell everything about this team? Obviously not, but I think it tells us something about this team Bergevin has built. The standing tells us a bit more.

 

[Walrus26]

I'll be tuning in tonight in the vain hope that I'll be there at least in spirit to see Tatar's and Petry's last games in a Habs uniform.

It's the hope that kills you, isn't it?

 

[Lshap]

The Habs used six D men vs the Caps, Weber, Chiarot, Petry, Folin, Oullet and Kulak. If we exclude Folin, since he is undrafted, the average draft position for this group is 73, so basically a mid third rounder.
Petry, picked at 45 leads the group.

Does draft position among D men (the forward group would probably look a bit better) tell everything about this team? Obviously not, but I think it tells us something about this team Bergevin has built. The standing tells us a bit more.

What it tells you is that we can't draft our own players.

If you're interested in amazing pick/impact ratios, check out Tampa. Kucherov 58th OA; Point 79th; Killorn 77th; Palat 208th(!!); Johnson and Gourde undrafted. Vasilevskiy was a late 1st. Those scouts have stocked their team with bonafide stars and quality players that everyone else missed. And they've done it consistently. At some point it's not luck; it's a different tier of ability that top teams' scouting staffs have that ours lack.

 

[Lshap]

Disappointed is what I feel

Underwhelmed is what I feel

Start working on your angry face

I always expect the worst. This way here you are not suprised when bad news comes.

Follow hockey long enough and it either turns you into a Buddhist monk, or you jump off the nearest bridge.

Ommmmmmmm....

 

[salbutera]

What it tells you is that we can't draft our own players.

If you're interested in amazing pick/impact ratios, check out Tampa. Kucherov 58th OA; Point 79th; Killorn 77th; Palat 208th(!!); Johnson and Gourde undrafted. Vasilevskiy was a late 1st. Those scouts have stocked their team with bonafide stars and quality players that everyone else missed. And they've done it consistently. At some point it's not luck; it's a different tier of ability that top teams' scouting staffs have that ours lack.

Stevie Y gambled in 2010 the league would force a change to speed & skill based game based on potential litigation in the form of pending concussion lawsuits...the gamble paid off, it very easily might not have and ended up egg on his face, but alas..

TBay core is built off 2010 & 2011 drafts and non drafted junior players (minus Stamkos & Hedman of course as top picks and Kilhorn from 07 pre-dating Stevie Y).

Since 2012 when the rest of the league started drafting similar types TBays done okay but are on par with majority of teams league wide - lots of top-2 round busts

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What it tells you is that we can't draft our own players.

If you're interested in amazing pick/impact ratios, check out Tampa. Kucherov 58th OA; Point 79th; Killorn 77th; Palat 208th(!!); Johnson and Gourde undrafted. Vasilevskiy was a late 1st. Those scouts have stocked their team with bonafide stars and quality players that everyone else missed. And they've done it consistently. At some point it's not luck; it's a different tier of ability that top teams' scouting staffs have that ours lack.

They also have McD and Sergachev on the back end...

 

[salbutera]

They also have McD and Sergachev on the back end...

To be more specific Habs can’t draft offensively skilled forwards

 

[Scintillating10]

A lot of pain recent seeing Habs play like this. Makes it worse see them not willing to move players to improve future. We know 5 years from now we be in same position as we sit today.

 

[Lshap]

Stevie Y gambled in 2010 the league would force a change to speed & skill based game based on potential litigation in the form of pending concussion lawsuits...the gamble paid off, it very easily might not have and ended up egg on his face, but alas..

TBay core is built off 2010 & 2011 drafts and non drafted junior players (minus Stamkos & Hedman of course as top picks and Kilhorn from 07 pre-dating Stevie Y).

Since 2012 when the rest of the league started drafting similar types TBays done okay but are on par with majority of teams league wide - lots of top-2 round busts

Yes, Yzerman gambled. That's what good GMs do. As another ex-player once said, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take". Yzerman took his shot -- he hired the right scouts and coaches and let them work. Short of actually winning a Cup I'd call his gamble a huge success since Tampa has been and remains a top contender.

And whatever the future holds for their recent picks, their current team is a testament to brilliant scouting. I'm in awe of a team that's built almost entirely from homegrown picks. The benefits are obvious -- you don't trade away any assets to get them, you have them on ELCs, they've all developed and grown together within the same system. Plus, they're all in their prime and younger. Stamkos is the oldest core player and he's, what, 30? Tampa's the gold standard for me. I'd throw money and bribes and all the free beer they can drink at their scouts to get them here.

 

[Gally11]

If this season is a write off after the deadline can we just sign Markov so he gets his last 9 games.

 

[Barriwhite]

To be more specific Habs can’t draft offensively skilled forwards

I’ll add a layer: they can’t draft offensively skilled players whose skills translate to the NHL.

 

[sampollock]

lack of talent and too many small guys will do that to a team

 

[Riddick412]

I have this terrible feeling that MB will do nothing of significance before the TDL. Will go on about how he wasn't going to trade away the future or that he wasn't getting offers, etc.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Yes he’s still employed as the GM of this storied franchise. FAIL, make excuses, rinse, repeat.

He can’t be GM next year right?

 

[BLONG7]

Yes he’s still employed as the GM of this storied franchise. FAIL, make excuses, rinse, repeat.

He can’t be GM next year right?

The insanity they call Geoff Mol$on needs to make big changes.......big changes.

All of this is now on Money Mol$on.

 

[Andrei79]

It's funny hearing MB talk about not rebuilding, not tearing it down.


Meanwhile, the Rangers sold a number of players, added multiple first and second round picks.


Now, they're already on the brink of competing. They have 2 NHL caliber goaltenders in their pipeline. Zibanejad has developed into a high end center. They have a ton of talent coming up. They have 4 defensemen who can move the puck.

Like, they were better than MBs Habs while MBs Habs were competing and they're already better after tearing it down.

How much more evidence the man has no clue what he's doing does Molson need ?

 

[justafan22]

The insanity they call Geoff Mol$on needs to make big changes.......big changes.

All of this is now on Money Mol$on.

He'll be GM next year barring a complete collapse.

Even in that case they'd just fire CJ

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

To be more specific Habs can’t draft offensively skilled forwards

I think we have, but we screwed them in development. But you can view my thoughts on this in the Timmins thread.

A lot of pain recent seeing Habs play like this. Makes it worse see them not willing to move players to improve future. We know 5 years from now we be in same position as we sit today.

We'll see about that. I think Tatar probably goes.

I don't think Petry does (though he should.) I'd also trade Domi for a blueliner now too but I don't see MB pulling that trigger. He really seems hellbent on going for 8th place.

 

[sampollock]

MB is dumb enough to go in front of the press after they miss the playoffs again, and tell us all of the great core he has

 

[Lshap]

It's funny hearing MB talk about not rebuilding, not tearing it down.


Meanwhile, the Rangers sold a number of players, added multiple first and second round picks.


Now, they're already on the brink of competing. They have 2 NHL caliber goaltenders in their pipeline. Zibanejad has developed into a high end center. They have a ton of talent coming up. They have 4 defensemen who can move the puck.

Like, they were better than MBs Habs while MBs Habs were competing and they're already better after tearing it down.

How much more evidence the man has no clue what he's doing does Molson need ?

I feel like the crazy guy on the street corner yelling about the apocalypse. I keep harping on the rotten foundation of our pipeline, and at the risk of repeating that message too many times, I remain convinced all issues stem from it. Poor scouting, poor amateur coaching, zero core players we've drafted ourselves. A decade of passively neglecting our prospect pool has left this team in a sinkhole. Other teams like New York put real energy into their pipeline and have started to see results. Yet over here Geoff and Marc continue to fill potholes rather than do a proper excavation and repair. Trades keep us from sinking deeper, but they don't actually fix the damage.

I'm pretty sure Geoff and Marc see the problem. I don't think they're clueless. The problem might be that they're in so deep they don't have the will to implement real change. It requires an admission of failure and a gutting of staff and veteran players. The question is, are they willing to take the public heat for placing playoff hopes on hold for a couple of years? Can they stop with the damn fake hype and stop condescending to the fans? It takes work and PR -- can these guys finally bite the f***ing bullet and act like leaders?

 

[Deluded Puck]

What it tells you is that we can't draft our own players.

If you're interested in amazing pick/impact ratios, check out Tampa. Kucherov 58th OA; Point 79th; Killorn 77th; Palat 208th(!!); Johnson and Gourde undrafted. Vasilevskiy was a late 1st. Those scouts have stocked their team with bonafide stars and quality players that everyone else missed. And they've done it consistently. At some point it's not luck; it's a different tier of ability that top teams' scouting staffs have that ours lack.

Not just scouting but DEVELOPMENT.

 

[Lshap]

Not just scouting but DEVELOPMENT.

Absolutely. The piechart of blame definitely includes scouting and development -- I just don't know how much of each.

 

[DAChampion]

Absolutely. The piechart of blame definitely includes scouting and development -- I just don't know how much of each.

I'm going to nerd out, here goes:

A pie chart is a bad analogy for drafting and development.

With a pie chart, the pieces add as a sum. If one piece of the pie is smaller, you can still have a lot of our if the other pieces are good.

But in real life drafting and development don't sum, they multiply. What that means is that if one piece is equal to zero, then the whole thing is equal to zero, regardless of the other pieces. You can't compensate from being bad in one area by being good in the other.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Absolutely. The piechart of blame definitely includes scouting and development -- I just don't know how much of each.

not sure it's possible to know. I'd wager that there's more of a problem with scouting. The thing is, every team will miss players in the draft. otherwise, the best players would all go in the 1st round. In order. OTOH, development is something a team should get right, or close to it.

 

[Lshap]

I'm going to nerd out, here goes:

A pie chart is a bad analogy for drafting and development.

With a pie chart, the pieces add as a sum. If one piece of the pie is smaller, you can still have a lot of our if the other pieces are good.

But in real life drafting and development don't sum, they multiply. What that means is that if one piece is equal to zero, then the whole thing is equal to zero, regardless of the other pieces. You can't compensate from being bad in one area by being good in the other.

Serves me right for bringing pastry into this.