Marc-Andre Fleury Appreciation

[Jugitsu]

Hey Mr. Team Stat! Let me give you a team stat argument.

2015-16 season. That Pens team was wretched. So wretched, that they fired their coach mid-season. The only reason the team even made the playoffs that year was because of MAF keeping them afloat for first half of the season. And only reason he wasn't the starter for the playoffs that year was because he got hurt in the final month of the season. That Pens team would not have won the cup w/o MAF standing on his head for first 40+ games.

But please continue with your, "only 1 cup as a starter" and "team stat" arguments. Only when they fit your narrative, of course

EDIT: I also want to point out that Patrick Roy played on a lot better teams than MAF did. Especially when you think about how poorly those Pens teams were constructed defensively. So your argument about his wins/SOs/Sv%/GAA not being comparable to Roy's because they're "team stats" has more holes in it than all of the call girls in Vegas. MAF is 2 shutouts behind Roy. Two. And MAF has played 171 fewer games.

Other posters already pretty much shot down your arguments. I just wanted to point out the irony of the bolded part.

I also want you to read this, just in case you missed it since the poster didn't quote you:

I don't like how Fleury has somehow built this narrative where it's pretty clear that he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame, but I did come into this thread with good intentions to answer the question posed.

I can appreciate that teams have found him good enough to hold down a NHL netminder job for 17 seasons now. I also appreciate that he's gotten a little better with age, which helps move the needle a little bit when compared to the many catastrophes he's been a part of. He's obviously likable which will go a long way with voters. He's no Barry Bonds for instance.

Then I read your comment.

Do you really believe that the similarity in some of those numbers means anything?

Fleury has had the benefit of the shootout. Roy had 131 ties. Even if he was below .500, that's at least 65 additional wins one could add to his 551, which would give him 616 wins.

The first 5 seasons of Roy's career had league wide averages of .874, .880, .880, .879, and .881. Roy led the league in Save % in the bolded years with .900, .908, and .912. League wide scoring was 7.94, 7.34, 7.42, 7.48, and 7.36. He sported GAA's of 2.36-2.94 in years where GPG were 7+.

I saw someone else mention that Roy had the benefit of the Dead Puck Era to balance out the higher scoring of his early career. That's barely true. The Dead Puck Era began in his age 32 season and he retired after his age 37 season. Not a lot of time to balance out 650+ games played before age 32.

He led the league in multiple categories throughout his career, he obviously won Vezinas, Smythes, and Cups that he was the starter for and wasn't given a ring for playing backup. In almost every case, he was why his team won. Fleury's teams much much more often than not won in spite of him. Fleury has never won a single individual award. He's finished top 5 in Vezina voting twice. His numbers are roughly the league average during his career. He led a solitary statistical category once (10 shutouts in 2014-2015, year where his GAA was 2.32 and his Save % was .920 and he didn't receive a single Vezina vote).

I'm aware that you're not arguing that Fleury is close to Roy (I hope), but the raw numbers with zero context tell us absolutely nothing in this case.

 

[WingsFan95]

I've been saying he's a guaranteed Hall of Famer for about 5 years I think. Hate him all you want he'll be in that club and at the end of the day that's all that matters to most players. If he ends up 2nd in wins ahead of Roy though it'll be a riot.

 

[kladorf2005]

You are creating an even more flawed narrative. MAF was good in 2015-2016 but hardly "the only reason" the Pens made the playoffs, considering they ended up second in their division and had a 15–10–3 record when Johnston was fired. It's not like they were like the Ducks of today who basically only win when Gibson stands on his head. Johnston was a bad coach but he didn't make the team quite that bad.

And yes, wins are a team stats which indicates mostly which goalie was lucky enough to play for good teams. Put MAF in say Minnesota and people would laugh out loud at the idea of him making the Hall of Fame.

They had a 15-10-3 because of MAF

w/o him, they absolutely would have been like the Ducks of today. And that hot streak they went on after firing Johnston would not have been good enough to get them in, if MAF hadn't stood on his head to a 15-10-3 start.

 

[kladorf2005]

Other posters already pretty much shot down your arguments. I just wanted to point out the irony of the bolded part.

I also want you to read this, just in case you missed it since the poster didn't quote you:

Look dude. I provided a counterargument to your extremely flawed and misleading argument. You created the narrative. Me pointing out the flaws in your narrative isn't irony. Go buy a dictionary.

Appreciate you quoting the post about Roy. FWIW, there is some good info in there, as well as some misleading info (though not nearly as misleading as what you keep spouting off). Also, I'm not arguing that MAF is comparable to Roy. Roy is one of the 2 greatest goalies of all time. Someone else brought up Roy, and I merely pointed out that Fleury isn't exactly chopped liver by comparison.

Have a good day. Please don't reply to this post, because I will only lose brain cells if I accidently end up reading it.

 

[Icarium]

w/o him, they absolutely would have been like the Ducks of today.

No, they wouldn't. Before their last game the Ducks were tied for the worst goal-scoring pace since 1940. The Pens were merely underperforming and playing a dumb defensive system which didn't utilize the team's strengths.

And in any event, if MAF had played worse, Johnston would probably have been canned sooner and the Pens would have made the playoffs even more easily.

 

[Jugitsu]

Look dude. I provided a counterargument to your extremely flawed and misleading argument. You created the narrative. Me pointing out the flaws in your narrative isn't irony. Go buy a dictionary.

Appreciate you quoting the post about Roy. FWIW, there is some good info in there, as well as some misleading info (though not nearly as misleading as what you keep spouting off). Also, I'm not arguing that MAF is comparable to Roy. Roy is one of the 2 greatest goalies of all time. Someone else brought up Roy, and I merely pointed out that Fleury isn't exactly chopped liver by comparison.

Have a good day. Please don't reply to this post, because I will only lose brain cells if I accidently end up reading it.

You brought up a very small stretch of MAF's career where he allegedly was head and shoulders above rest of the team and you expect me to fold? You're actually proving my point. That's why the wins statistic is so flawed, you couldn't tell from that stat alone that MAF was better than his average self during that time. You actually provided some context to his winning season when others never do that when they throw that stupid stat around. That's my point. And based on his playoffs history so far, he was more than likely to blow Penguins' chances in the playoffs rather than secure the Cup. The bottomline is, he didn't play and the Penguins won the Cup regardless.

You're clearly out of your league here hence the need to try and get personal, but I can take it. It's childish, but I don't mind. I've done it myself occasionally - never helps though, just like in your case.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

The guy was brilliant in the mini series against Colorado.

He actually looks as athletic as ever. Crazy.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

As a Pens fan, I miss good Fleury. To bad he's only good about half the time.

 

[traparatus]

I really appreciate the guy. One of the very few that makes goaltending position bearable to watch.

In general this era of 'cardboard cutout' goaltending is not my cup of tea. Every time I hear 'positionaly sound', 'efficient movement' and 'able to maintain compact shape', a little bit of my spirit dies.

 

[PaulD]

I have said as much recently, for example 5 years ago the HF hivemind did nothing but talk about how overpaid and overrated MAF was. I wonder how much of that was because he was in Pittsburgh at the time?



1 ring as a starter, 1 ring as a key contributor in the playoffs before the SCF, 1 ring riding the bench the entire playoff run.

5 SCF appearances, 2 as a backup that didn't play in the SCF at all.



I don't think MAF is a disappointment at all but I think people read his list of accomplishments on paper and out of context so they can pump his tires without even calling to mind the decade's worth of bashing this guy received suggesting that he was overpaid, overrated, and generally considered to be a guy that lucked into one Cup win but could not get the job done in the playoffs after said victory.

As opposed to all the goalie in the NHL that have never got a sniff.

Fleury was great in the play offs in 09 Cup win. Had well know melt downs in years following. Was fantastic in 016 beating the Caps in game 7 in Washington with a shut out (playing great for the first two rounds). They dont win the 016 Cup with out his stellar play. Marc was lights out fantastic carrying the Knights to the finals in 018.
No one is saying he is Marty Broduer , but he is going to the Hall of Fame none the less.

 

[PaulD]

Crazy how a goalie with three Stanley Cups could be called a disappointment.

Envy....... aint it ugly.

 

[PaulD]

You're right, he isn't close. Lets compare his career stats to Roy's once he's reached the same games played, if he does. Wins is a silly stat, considering it's the most team stat I can imagine.



Been to Stanley Cup finals 5 times but won only once as a starter. Lots of goalies have won the Stanley Cup as a starter once.

I don't care about close. He didn't win the Conn Smythe end of story. And I bet if I dug hard enough, I could find arguments against him having it in the pocket at any point during his that particular run.

Shutouts is a nice team stat. Too bad there aren't any awards for getting the most shutouts. Or wins for that matter.

Lots more have won piss all and zero Cups.

 

[bukwas]

He's been a great story this year for sure. Another Stanley Cup ring will look good on him.

 

[IceNeophyte]

As opposed to all the goalie in the NHL that have never got a sniff.

Fleury was great in the play offs in 09 Cup win. Had well know melt downs in years following. Was fantastic in 016 beating the Caps in game 7 in Washington with a shut out (playing great for the first two rounds). They dont win the 016 Cup with out his stellar play. Marc was lights out fantastic carrying the Knights to the finals in 018.
No one is saying he is Marty Broduer , but he is going to the Hall of Fame none the less.

Also, he was very good, if shy of fantastic, in 18-19, and his father dying put him in the mud last season and he STILL batted over .900, though .905 tied for his worst since his first two years in the league. When you play a mental position, things like that can really screw you up.

 

[IceNeophyte]

He's been a great story this year for sure. Another Stanley Cup ring will look good on him.

I admire your sunny optimism.

 

[PaulD]

Also, he was very good, if shy of fantastic, in 18-19, and his father dying put him in the mud last season and he STILL batted over .900, though .905 tied for his worst since his first two years in the league. When you play a mental position, things like that can really screw you up.

Even more reasons for me to wish him continued success.
Thanks

 

[PaulD]

I admire your sunny optimism.

Vegas in tough division but they are a Cup contender for sure.

Petrangelo a fantastic addition.

 

[Oblivion Beckons]

Fleury has been a solid goalie with a solid career but never have I seen him as being top 5 goalie over the course of his career. I honestly don't think he should be in the HHOF but if he does then Luongo better be in as well. So far this season Fleury looks like he wants to get himself a Vezina before he retires.

 

[PaulD]

The guy was brilliant in the mini series against Colorado.

He actually looks as athletic as ever. Crazy.

The Knights as a team look better with him in net as well

 

[Super Cake]

Fleury has been a solid goalie with a solid career but never have I seen him as being top 5 goalie over the course of his career. I honestly don't think he should be in the HHOF but if he does then Luongo better be in as well. So far this season Fleury looks like he wants to get himself a Vezina before he retires.

2 things depends on Fleurys chances for the Vezina this season.

1. Of course Fleury himself
2. Deboer

If Deboer goes back to goalie rotation he has been using when Lehner comes back, i could see that hindering Fleurys chances at a Vezina even if he keeps up this type of play all season.

 

[BL92]

Still sad that the Pens traded him. What a mistake that was...

 

[Super Cake]

Still sad that the Pens traded him. What a mistake that was...

I think they were just banking on Murray or Jerry.

Obviously Murray didn't work out.

There is still time for Jerry to become a starter.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Still sad that the Pens traded him. What a mistake that was...

Which speaks lengths of how inconsistent he is in his game. When he's hot, he's great. When he's cold, teams want to give up on him, because he can be THAT unreliable.

Pittsburgh gave him away in the draft. They BEGGED Vegas to take him. Then Vegas wanted to replace him with Lehner and just get rid of him.

Fleury ON: He's a top tier goalie
Fleury OFF: The GM looks for his shovel

That doesn't exactly smell like HHOF material to me. Too much OFF if all franchices he has played for have genuinely doubted him to THAT extent. His lowest capacity kills his consistency. Again, not HHOF. He has been fortunate enough to play for two very good teams. On a mediocre to bad team, it probably would've been much worse.

 

[Ignatius]

Still sad that the Pens traded him.

Traded him? He was claimed by Vegas in the expansion draft because back-to-back Stanley Cup Champion starter Matt Murray was clearly seen as a better and more cost effective goalie for the foreseeable future.

What a mistake that was...

People need to stop with this nonsense. I swear some people would trade the Cup wins from 2016 and 2017 just so they could have certain players playing on this team indefinitely.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

He’s better than Lehner ever will be and he’s first ballot HoF.