Sportsnet: Maple Leafs need to mend divided dressing room

[Longshot]

Reading some of the threads around here this morning, it's absolutely shocking how so many fans are so absolutely delusional about this team.

Amazing isn't it?

Ron Wilson - former coach (a guy that was "in the room") - says there is a problem.

Randy Carlyle (read his interviews with the Sun and Star) - without naming names he says there is a problem.

Roman Pollack - a player on the team, that came from a Stanley Cup contender - he says there is a problem.

Carl Gunnerson - a former player that went to a Stanley Cup contender - he says there is a problem.

It goes on and on and yet fans come on this board and say the media is making it all up and doesn't know what's going on.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Is it just me, or do the Leafs ALWAYS seem to have a dressing room problem?


Doesn't matter who the personnel are, they always have issues according to the media. Generation after generation of Leaf teams are a bunch of *******s.


Either all of the Leafs management groups over the years have been historically terrible at character evaluation, or Toronto is apparently cursed. (by the media)

 

[leafsfuture]

Hence why a lot of people have been saying the Leafs no 1 issue isnt a lack of a No 1 D or 1C, but coaching.

Horachuck has got 40 games to get these guys do realize they all have great hockey ability, but that without a buy in, we wont win. Look at Groulx. The shotblocking exercize Canada did on day 1 of training camp set a mentality, and we saw it in the tourney. Domi, Nurse, Paul, Bowey, Lazar are all guys I can remember making some big time blocks. And these were all top6/top 4 guys.

Horachuck can make or break this season. he has become the most key figure on this team. Maybe 3 guys in the NHL can shoot a puck like Phil Kessel. Maybe 3 guys can roof a puck top shelf like JVR. Maybe 10 guys in the NHL can dangle side to side like Kadri. Maybe 5 guys in the NHL can shoot a puck as hard as Dion. Maybe 5 guys in the NHL can shoot as accurately from the point as Franson. Maybe 5 guys in the NHL can kill penalties as good as Winnik and Komarov.

We have guys who can play. The coach now has to put these guys and make them work as a team. Yes there are holes, especially down the middle and on defence. BUT, we have enough skill to score goals. We need to cut the goals against. THat involves both the D and the forwards.

 

[Longshot]

Is it just me, or do the Leafs ALWAYS seem to have a dressing room problem?


Doesn't matter who the personnel are, they always have issues according to the media. Generation after generation of Leaf teams are a bunch of *******s.


Either all of the Leafs management groups over the years have been historically terrible at character evaluation, or Toronto is apparently cursed. (by the media)

Funny how you just ignore it's former players, coaches (in the past three days both Carlyle and Wilson said there are issues) and in Pollack's case - current players that are all saying there are problems.

The big bad media is reporting what they're saying.

 

[Pi]

Is it just me, or do the Leafs ALWAYS seem to have a dressing room problem?


Doesn't matter who the personnel are, they always have issues according to the media. Generation after generation of Leaf teams are a bunch of *******s.


Either all of the Leafs management groups over the years have been historically terrible at character evaluation, or Toronto is apparently cursed. (by the media)

A little tiny speck of success makes them think they are great players and when they lose they get all whiny.

This is the least likable Leafs team in a decade. I hate about 80% of the players on this team. It's amazing how they just don't give a **** on most nights.

 

[IBLEAF]

I do enjoy how defensemen who don't put up a lot of points get annointed as shutdown. His advanced defensive metrics don't put him in that position at all.

I enjoy d-man who play 100% and dont take no ****.imo Polak is are best d-man

 

[bobbyflex]

all this is doing is driving Kessel's trade value further down. Plus creating even more division in the locker room. This team is on a slippery slope. Season is done.

 

[Menzinger]

What does he say. Don't read your own personal bias into.

He said “Because it’s hard work,†Polak said before Wednesday’s 6-2 loss to Washington. “It’s always tough to do something you know you don’t like to do. I think we have lots of guys that just want to play offence.â€

So a player has an opinion on what the problem is with the Leafs but how does that make it a dressing room divided? Does Polak hate Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Lupul, Bozak cause they think offence first? So Polak ignores them in the dressing room, the plane and hotel? So certain players sit only with certain players and they don't host Halloween parties where everyone shows up.

You hear the same comment from any player on any team when a team struggles no different on his team than others.

Don't let the media's CNN style headline on Sportsnet fool you into thinking something that it is not. They are just trying to suck you into reading their article and they were successful.

I can pull post game comments from every team that are similar to Polak and that doesn't mean there is a room divided.

Let's not be sheeple here people

Yeah, the media has a very clear narrative they're trying to foster. Polak thinks some players need to be better defensively - I don think you'll find a single person in these boards who disagree with it. Reading this article (and others) you'd get the sense that there is a higly bitter divide in the dressing room - which in reality there seems to be zero evidence to that point.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Funny how you just ignore it's former players, coaches (in the past three days both Carlyle and Wilson said there are issues) and in Pollack's case - current players that are all saying there are problems.

The big bad media is reporting what they're saying.

First off, I'm not really ignoring anything. I'm just saying that it seems odd that every Leafs team in history (or at least recent history) have been accused of being a bunch of pompous *****.

Something in the water I guess.

Secondly, Polak said that there isn't a commitment by some players to team defense. That's a little different than a "dressing room divide".

I'm not dismissing problems, just sayin' this isn't new to the team, regardless of who is actually playing for the team.

 

[TheVision]

Amazing isn't it?

Ron Wilson - former coach (a guy that was "in the room") - says there is a problem.

Randy Carlyle (read his interviews with the Sun and Star) - without naming names he says there is a problem.

Roman Pollack - a player on the team, that came from a Stanley Cup contender - he says there is a problem.

Carl Gunnerson - a former player that went to a Stanley Cup contender - he says there is a problem.

It goes on and on and yet fans come on this board and say the media is making it all up and doesn't know what's going on.

I love these posters saying: "Hey, it's just one game." My goodness, it's the same team, playing the same way they have for the majority of the season. I can only speak for myself, but as a long LONG time fan, this mediocrity BS is getting very very tiresome. I'll leave it to the younger fans to adore the medocrity they seem to love. You fill a team with one dimensional players as your Top 6 (Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri), what the hell do you expect???

Time to burn it down and do it properly!

 

[Menzinger]

I love these posters saying: "Hey, it's just one game." My goodness, it's the same team, playing the same way they have for the majority of the season. I can only speak for myself, but as a long LONG time fan, this mediocrity BS is getting very very tiresome. I'll leave it to the younger fans to adore the medocrity they seem to love. You fill a team with one dimensional players as your Top 6 (Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri), what the hell do you expect???

Time to burn it down and do it properly!

Kadri isn't one dimensional, he may not have had a great game last night, but he's shown considerable defensive prowess this season

 

[Longshot]

First off, I'm not really ignoring anything. I'm just saying that it seems odd that every Leafs team in history (or at least recent history) have been accused of being a bunch of pompous *****.

I was following the team when it was a contender under Pat Burns and Pat Quinn. And I don't remember stories like this.

The difference? Those teams had solid veteran cores that were committed to trying to get to the next level.

And this current Leafs team doesn't have that.

Those were different times in different NHL eras, but to say every single Leafs team gets attacked and torn down by the media isn't true.

 

[TheVision]

Kadri isn't one dimensional, he may not have had a great game last night, but he's shown considerable defensive prowess this season

He played a few decent games, while the entire team was, and he's deemed a 2 way player. Sorry, don't see it. But there are other threads for that. He had the best seat in the house for Johnasson's goal last night! If anything, he may be a player that suffers from not having Carlyle constantly having to light a fire under him. This goes back to the delusional thing I was getting at, Kadri is our best centre...that is so friggin sad.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I was following the team when it was a contender under Pat Burns and Pat Quinn. And I don't remember stories like this.

The difference? Those teams had solid veteran cores that were committed to trying to get to the next level.

And this current Leafs team doesn't have that.

Those were different times in different NHL eras, but to say every single Leafs team gets attacked and torn down by the media isn't true.

You don't remember the accusations at Sundin for not being a "true" captain? The whole "dressing room drama" between Tucker/Green/Domi/Corson vs. the world?


I seem to recall that being a pretty big deal at the time.

 

[Longshot]

You don't remember the accusations at Sundin for not being a "true" captain? The whole "dressing room drama" between Tucker/Green/Domi/Corson vs. the world?


I seem to recall that being a pretty big deal at the time.

I remember fans saying that about Sundin, because some had some strange prejudice against him because he was Swedish and was traded for Clark. But I certainly don't remember that being a narrative the media followed or promoted. My memory was that the vast majority of the media respected and admired Sundin and defended him when fans made those kinds of stupid comments.

And I don't remember any drama around Tucker/Green/Domi/Corson - other than the time Corson's mental health issues came out.

That's not to say there weren't criticisms from reporters/columnists. There is critical commentary about every sports team even when they're winning regularly.

But I certainly don't remember any large-scale crisis kind of problems about divided dressing rooms and players that wouldn't work hard to make the team better.

 

[ACC1224]

I was following the team when it was a contender under Pat Burns and Pat Quinn. And I don't remember stories like this.

The difference? Those teams had solid veteran cores that were committed to trying to get to the next level.

And this current Leafs team doesn't have that.

Those were different times in different NHL eras, but to say every single Leafs team gets attacked and torn down by the media isn't true.

Of course there were many stories. They just didn't have threads dedicated to them.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Is it just me, or do the Leafs ALWAYS seem to have a dressing room problem?


Doesn't matter who the personnel are, they always have issues according to the media. Generation after generation of Leaf teams are a bunch of *******s.


Either all of the Leafs management groups over the years have been historically terrible at character evaluation, or Toronto is apparently cursed. (by the media)

Well when you have 23 or so men together of all different ages and walks of life that only have one thing in common it's going to be spicy at times. (i sound like i'm intro-ing survivor or something).

the only big one that i heard of was the Corson & Tucker vs. Mogliny split and also how there was the Domi cliche etc. but considering how many people ... do non cool things with teammates wives.... (which is around the league past and present). not ot mention there are some people are just.. not cool to hang around, or people who irritate people etc.

as 'split' as some as the old Leafs locker rooms are, you never got the sense that it got in the way of getting the job done. for all the drama that was around the team between 1999-2004, they almost always cleared 100 points, they always made it past the 1st round (minus the end). they committed.

this merry bunch of Leafs (and sometimes when I hear some of these people speak I have to go -are you serious? or do you honestly believe what you're saying), say the 'right things' or if we're on awinning streak it's "well more more do you want, we're winning", and if we're losing (badly), it's "well if we just do what we did three weeks ago" (shrug)

to me, it really seems like a good bunch (and I don't even know who to choose from a line up anymore, because it all starts to blend in together) truly think that everything is okay they "just" need to be consistent -but refuse to do the things that make them. - and what compounds it is, that Nonis believes the exact same thing as the good ole bunch.

 

[Hunter74]

How many times have these offense orientated players been taken aside by a veteran player and told to play the two way game? I imagine it has been quite a few times and from the looks of things it looks like the offensive types told the defensive types to **** off.

This isn't the good old days when you can just slap your teammates around behind closed doors. If they don't want to play the right way despite teammates confronting them and coaching talking to them then it is up to the coaches and management to correct the situation. Coaches can bench and limit ice time which they did not and management can send players packing which I am sure is in process now. Obviously the coaching staff and management has not supported the winning culture that they say they want.

Hypothetical confrontation between vet (Phaneuf, Robidas, Polak, Winnik, you choose) and player not playing the system (Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Gardiner, Lupul, Phaneuf?, you choose).

I will use Robidas and Kessel

R:hey Phil you really have to start back checking and staying in the D zone longer it's hurting the team when you cheat on offense.
P: look I get paid to score goals and when I score goals the team wins. If I don't play this way I don't score and the team doesn't win.
R: you will still get your chances if you play D
P: no this is the way I have to play to be effective. If the coaches don't like the way I am playing they will do something. You guys just have to do a better job moving the puck to us.

Or Phils linemates

Robidas: you guys need to be better on the back check and in the d zone.
JVR: I am on the top line we have to create scoring chances.
Robidas: you still get your chances if you play D
JVR : we play D enough and we score a lot we are doing our part. You guys just need to be better at getting the puck up the ice.

That's nicer than offensive guy telling defensive guy to go **** himself which is probably not far off the mark.

what can actually be done? You have to confront without creating a massive rift between you and the most high profile player on the club. players holding players accountable is a tough thing to do if the offending player doesn't give two cents about what his teammates think of him. Or if teammates truly feel they cannot win without that player on there side.

 

[ACC1224]

Does Polak say the "dressing room is divided" or is this just an assumed leap?
By all accounts they've seemed like a pretty tight group.

 

[Swayze*]

Who cares about the title?

The important thing is the Polak quote.

Everybody is fighting and getting caught up in the title.

 

[Longshot]

Of course there were many stories. They just didn't have threads dedicated to them.

It was definitely a different time.

As I said, there were stories and criticisms. But there was nothing like this kind of scale. Divided dressing room, uncoachable players, etc, etc.

But I guess that's the nature of the beast when you're comparing winning and successful teams to teams that have been bad for a long time.

When a team is losing everything gets magnified. And every critical story seems like the end of the world and more piling on.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Who cares about the title?

The important thing is the Polak quote.

Everybody is fighting and getting caught up in the title.

exactly.
take off the wrapper and look inside, what is Polak saying. that's the important thing

 

[TheVision]

How many times have these offense orientated players been taken aside by a veteran player and told to play the two way game? I imagine it has been quite a few times and from the looks of things it looks like the offensive types told the defensive types to **** off.

This isn't the good old days when you can just slap your teammates around behind closed doors. If they don't want to play the right way despite teammates confronting them and coaching talking to them then it is up to the coaches and management to correct the situation. Coaches can bench and limit ice time which they did not and management can send players packing which I am sure is in process now. Obviously the coaching staff and management has not supported the winning culture that they say they want.

Hypothetical confrontation between vet (Phaneuf, Robidas, Polak, Winnik, you choose) and player not playing the system (Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Gardiner, Lupul, Phaneuf?, you choose).

I will use Robidas and Kessel

R:hey Phil you really have to start back checking and staying in the D zone longer it's hurting the team when you cheat on offense.
P: look I get paid to score goals and when I score goals the team wins. If I don't play this way I don't score and the team doesn't win.
R: you will still get your chances if you play D
P: no this is the way I have to play to be effective. If the coaches don't like the way I am playing they will do something. You guys just have to do a better job moving the puck to us.

Or Phils linemates

Robidas: you guys need to be better on the back check and in the d zone.
JVR: I am on the top line we have to create scoring chances.
Robidas: you still get your chances if you play D
JVR : we play D enough and we score a lot we are doing our part. You guys just need to be better at getting the puck up the ice.

That's nicer than offensive guy telling defensive guy to go **** himself which is probably not far off the mark.

what can actually be done? You have to confront without creating a massive rift between you and the most high profile player on the club. players holding players accountable is a tough thing to do if the offending player doesn't give two cents about what his teammates think of him. Or if teammates truly feel they cannot win without that player on there side.

You bite the bullet, find a team on the cusp of the playoffs, or trying to take the next big step (St Louis, San Jose, Minnesota, etc), who have the other types of players in place, but lack pure scoring. You see what you can get for Kessel, and realize he's a complimentary player, not one you build around. You get a 1st, a high end prospect, and a serviceable player, and suck it up. I actually like Phil, for what he is, but he is NOT the player we should be building around; sadly.

 

[Longshot]

You bite the bullet, find a team on the cusp of the playoffs, or trying to take the next big step (St Louis, San Jose, Minnesota, etc), who have the other types of players in place, but lack pure scoring. You see what you can get for Kessel, and realize he's a complimentary player, not one you build around. You get a 1st, a high end prospect, and a serviceable player, and suck it up. I actually like Phil, for what he is, but he is NOT the player we should be building around; sadly.

They probably need to take back a crappy contract to move Kessel's contract. But that's what will need to happen.

I wish Cap Geek hadn't shut down. Last night I really wanted to start looking at the cap situations of contending teams to see what kinds of (realistic deals) are possible for some of the Leafs contracts.

 

[Loosie]

Very misleading headline by Sportsnet. Nowhere in that article di I read that there are dressing room problems and that it is divided.