Sportsnet: Maple Leafs must add proven defenders, move on from all-offence identity

[sparxx87]

It factually does not more than offense and goaltending.

Statistics are subjective. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you’ll be able to keep up.

That’s just helpful advice. Please don’t report me!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Particularly when they're true.

Particularly when they're not.

Statistics are subjective.

Facts aren't.

 

[Morbo]

Particularly when they're true.

But in hockey at least, it's not. Offence and goaltending are of equal importance to defence.

Furthermore, to disagree with the saying for that reason is not discounting the importance of defence. As said, it's as important as the other two factors. It's just not MORE important, as the saying implies.

perhaps in NFL football, which is where I believe it comes from originally, it may be more true. I don't know.

 

[ACC1224]

But in hockey at least, it's not. Offence and goaltending are of equal importance to defence.

Furthermore, to disagree with the saying for that reason is not discounting the importance of defence. As said, it's as important as the other two factors. It's just not MORE important, as the saying implies.

perhaps in NFL football, which is where I believe it comes from originally, it may be more true. I don't know.

Yes in a sense because hockey is more fluid where football is a series of set plays.
Obviously offense has it's importance but it can only take you so far. You won't go anywhere without sound defense and goaltending. There are exceptions but they are rare.

 

[Morbo]

Blue and White disease was actually one of my personal favorites.

Probably applicable to this team right now

So I guess you have to pick and choose which Burke catchphrases you follow like a religion, and which ones all those other dumb Brian Burke suckers that aren't you fell for.

On a serious note, I don't entirely disagree with you on that point strictly in terms of this season. This year the effort was very spotty and these guys often played like they just won the Cup instead of being a hungry team desperate to prove itself. Marner and Nylander's showing against the Jackets was very poor. Very disappointing. I'm not sure how Dubas could be baffled by people criticizing Marner either.

 

[sparxx87]

Particularly when they're not.

Facts aren't.

A number of these stats are recorded subjectively. That doesn’t make them factual. And the advanced metrics miss more data than they record, so even if collection was black and white, how accurate are they?

Your facts are actually bogus stats, and that’s why so many are laughing at you.

 

[pcruz]

This “hot take” is a surprise to nobody.
At least it shouldn’t be.

The team needs a defender who can defend while not being black holes with the puck.
The team needs a defender that can play hard bruising physical hockey while being above average defensively and not a black hole with the puck.

Then, it needs 1-2 forwards with the same characteristics of being sound defensively (Gauthier), but simultaneously strong and physically assertive. Pair them with speedy kids with active sticks and a bit of offensive flair (like Kapanen was 2-3 years ago) and that becomes a decent shut down line.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A number of these stats are recorded subjectively.

No, they aren't. They are recorded based on set criteria that are the same for everybody, that have been optimized to provide the best reflection of the quantity and quality of opportunities against, that meshes really well with what is seen on the ice. They are not perfect, but nothing is perfect. Not more basic stats. Certainly not your eye test. Fact is they are way better than what anybody else has brought to the table to suggest otherwise. The problem is that many have zero ability to differentiate between good defense and good goaltending.

 

[ACC1224]

You have to wonder if the team would have been better off this season with Zaitsev and Brown then Ceci?

 

[Mugzy97]

I'd be chasing down the following:
Pietrangelo
Braun
Dillon
Brodie
Vatanen
Gudas

If we could add 2 of these guys we'd be in much better shape.

 

[robertmac43]

Preventing goals is in most sports is a more effective way of increasing your chances of winning. So it makes sense and is not really a groundbreaking thought by any means.

 

[Dreakmur]

No, they aren't. They are recorded based on set criteria that are the same for everybody, that have been optimized to provide the best reflection of the quantity and quality of opportunities against, that meshes really well with what is seen on the ice. They are not perfect, but nothing is perfect. Not more basic stats. Certainly not your eye test. Fact is they are way better than what anybody else has brought to the table to suggest otherwise. The problem is that many have zero ability to differentiate between good defense and good goaltending.

A lot of times good goaltending and good defense go hand in hand. Trust between the goalie and the skaters is huge, and that trust has to be built.

Andersen definitely does not trust many of the Toronto defensemen, and that’s totally fair. That lack of trust leads to indecision, and that leaves holes. The Foudy goal was a perfect example. Andersen was clearly set up to push off the post because he thought a pass was coming. If he trusted Marincin, he would cave committee to the shooter.

 

[robertmac43]

You have to wonder if the team would have been better off this season with Zaitsev and Brown then Ceci?

Cap implications make that trade worth it in the long run thoug.


Really wish we never had to get rid of Brown, you could tell he loved playing for the Maple Leafs!

 

[sparxx87]

No, they aren't. They are recorded based on set criteria that are the same for everybody, that have been optimized to provide the best reflection of the quantity and quality of opportunities against, that meshes really well with what is seen on the ice. They are not perfect, but nothing is perfect. Not more basic stats. Certainly not your eye test. Fact is they are way better than what anybody else has brought to the table to suggest otherwise. The problem is that many have zero ability to differentiate between good defense and good goaltending.

Whether or not something meets criteria is subjective, especially a play in professional sports happening extremely fast and including dozens of variables.

Meshes really well with what we see on the ice? Is that another fact? Because now you’re mixing in the eye test which you say is unreliable.

You’re right, some people don’t know what they’re watching.. but there’s a lot of us that do. The eye test can’t possibly absorb and dissect everything that’s happening at one time, but, if you know what you’re looking at and focus on specific things, it’s absolutely more reliable than any statistics. Add in PVR where I can rewind a play and see where/how it fell apart? It’s great.

Modern technology/video has made the eye test far more applicable while advanced analytics are still in their infancy. Someday maybe they’ll be more developed and possibly more useful but right now they’re incredibly flawed.

 

[Dreakmur]

Whether or not something meets criteria is subjective, especially a play in professional sports happening extremely fast and including dozens of variables.

Meshes really well with what we see on the ice? Is that another fact? Because now you’re mixing in the eye test which you say is unreliable.

You’re right, some people don’t know what they’re watching.. but there’s a lot of us that do. The eye test can’t possibly absorb and dissect everything that’s happening at one time, but, if you know what you’re looking at and focus on specific things, it’s absolutely more reliable than any statistics. Add in PVR where I can rewind a play and see where/how it fell apart? It’s great.

Modern technology/video has made the eye test far more applicable while advanced analytics are still in their infancy. Someday maybe they’ll be more developed and possibly more useful but right now they’re incredibly flawed.

Analyzing stats to help you form an opinion is great.

Searching for the one stat that supports your already formed opinion is idiotic.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A lot of times good goaltending and good defense go hand in hand. Trust between the goalie and the skaters is huge, and that trust has to be built.

They can have influences on each other to some extent, just like those things can impact offense as well, but they are all separate things. A good defense does not mean good goaltending.

Andersen definitely does not trust many of the Toronto defensemen, and that’s totally fair. That lack of trust leads to indecision, and that leaves holes.

That's a bad excuse. He had no trouble doing well behind one of the worst defense in the league for 3 years. Then the defense improves, and suddenly it's "well Andersen had no chance". No. Andersen's struggles this season are on himself. We should be able to expect him to be at least league average in goaltending behind a league average defense.

The Foudy goal was a perfect example. Andersen was clearly set up to push off the post because he thought a pass was coming. If he trusted Marincin, he would cave committee to the shooter.

There was nobody to pass to even remotely in the area, and Andersen looked and saw that well before the shot came. It was from an angle that can never go in.

 

[ACC1224]

Cap implications make that trade worth it in the long run thoug.


Really wish we never had to get rid of Brown, you could tell he loved playing for the Maple Leafs!

Could always have moved him this off season if it's only cap that's the issue.

 

[sparxx87]

Nobody even remotely in the area? Hmmm. Looks to me like Dubois is in the area and caused Anderson to have to play the shot AND pass. Marincin didn’t take either.

 

[Dreakmur]

We should be able to expect him to be at least league average in goaltending behind a league average defense.

Let’s hope Dubas makes some upgrades, builds a league average defense, and then we can see how Andersen plays behind it.

 

[Morbo]

Nobody even remotely in the area? Hmmm. Looks to me like Dubois is in the area and caused Anderson to have to play the shot AND pass. Marincin didn’t take either.

are you really trying to blame anyone other than Andersen for that goal? seriously?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

What is availability of Gudas and Edmundson?

Edmundson is 27, 6ft4, strong, fast decent hands and protects da house and is a UFA making 3.1M with canes.

Gudas is 30, 6ft, plays mean and protects da house and is a UFA making 2.3M with Caps.

I think both these guys are type of glue grit team first vets we need here. And I think they could come in pretty cheap with new cOVID CAP world.

Rielly -Gudas
Muzzy - Edmundson
Sandin - Dermy/Holl

 

[sparxx87]

are you really trying to blame anyone other than Andersen for that goal? seriously?

It was a bad goal, no question, but wtf were the other 5 Leafs doing? That play should have never happened in the first place.

Pee wee line change in an NHL elimination game caused that sequence of events. Anderson didn’t play it well, but neither did the other 5 in blue.

Hanging your goalie out to dry isn’t a recipe for success.

 

[thewave]

Nobody even remotely in the area? Hmmm. Looks to me like Dubois is in the area and caused Anderson to have to play the shot AND pass. Marincin didn’t take either.

Right?! Mari had neither, what a joke. These guys are honestly laughable and TBH a tender is allowed to give one up every now and then. The guy had 1.85 and .940 good stuff. 33.5m first line couldn't score in two games.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Whether or not something meets criteria is subjective

No, not really.

Meshes really well with what we see on the ice? Is that another fact? Because now you’re mixing in the eye test which you say is unreliable.

The eye test is unreliable, but you're suggesting the stats are wrong, based on nothing, even when it matches what the eye test shows. If you're not using actual facts, and you're not using the eye test, what exactly are you using?

You’re right, some people don’t know what they’re watching.. but there’s a lot of us that do.

Are you human? Because if you are, your ability to evaluate and analyze in an accurate way using your eyes is impossible, especially as a casual fan. The ways eyes lie to you have been extensively studied.

Add in PVR where I can rewind a play and see where/how it fell apart? It’s great. Modern technology/video has made the eye test far more applicable

Quite the contrary. It has made things infinitely worse. It allows individuals to focus in on specific mistakes and blend everything else into the background, which means that in 99% of cases, an individual will be able to find a way to blame somebody other than the goaltender, because people don't understand how often mistakes truly happen and end up in nothing, and don't understand how valuable specific types of chances truly are.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Let’s hope Dubas makes some upgrades, builds a league average defense, and then we can see how Andersen plays behind it.

We had a league average defense this year. Andersen was bad. Hopefully he can bounce back.