Management Thread

[Hodgy]

The naysayers have cherrypicked the 'I gave the scouts autonomy' quote (see my post #940) without listening to Lindens comments on the matter after. (in this interview, and Botchfords ,2018)... Linden goes on to explain that he wanted 'everybody voice in the room to be heard'...basically,..an 'even playing field..free speech' regardless of rank within the organization....This is the 'autonomy he was talking about'...They debated hard, and picked the right guy....

The 'tone deaf' committee has pushed their narratives of 'major divides, and overruling' where clearly..that was not in the spirit of the proceedings..as explained by Linden himself ('good healthy debate)..

Do you understand what “autonomy” is? An even playing field or free speech as you say isn’t autonomy, so your interpretation of Linden’s comments relies on him not understanding what the term autonomy means and using it in the wrong context.

Autonomy is allowing a person or persons the right to make decisions about something within their purview. Sure, Linden wanted everyone in the room’s voice to be heard, but it’s also pretty clear he wanted the scouts to have autonomy.

For comments that you describe as being vague or inconclusive, it’s pretty funny that you cannot provide a reasonable interpretation where Linden didn’t need to step in to ensure the scouts’ autonomy.

Try again.

 

[MS]

The naysayers have cherrypicked the 'I gave the scouts autonomy' quote (see my post #940) without listening to Lindens comments on the matter after. (in this interview, and Botchfords ,2018)... Linden goes on to explain that he wanted 'everybody voice in the room to be heard'...basically,..an 'even playing field..free speech' regardless of rank within the organization....This is the 'autonomy he was talking about'...They debated hard, and picked the right guy....

The 'tone deaf' committee has pushed their narratives of 'major divides, and overruling' where clearly..that was not in the spirit of the proceedings..as explained by Linden himself ('good healthy debate)..

It takes a baffling amount of mental gymnastics to turn Linden calling out 'dangerous executives' who haven't seen the players play enough and saying you have to have a collaborative process and listen to the scouts who actually watch the players … as being a quote supporting Benning somehow.

Like, I'm not sure how you can actually argue that with a straight face.

 

[MS]

It’s clear as day. Everything is there. It’s like people arguing the ending of Sopranos. All of the evidence is there in front of you if you look at it objectively.

It's particularly fascinating given that the same people can simultaneously ignore a mountain of evidence and Linden's very direct and obvious quotes … and then frame up narratives such as that Benning 'mentored Brackett from obscurity' because Brackett once said he listened to what his boss had to say in an interview years ago.

 

[Hodgy]

It takes a baffling amount of mental gymnastics to turn Linden calling out 'dangerous executives' who haven't seen the players play enough and saying you have to have a collaborative process and listen to the scouts who actually watch the players … as being a quote supporting Benning somehow.

Like, I'm not sure how you can actually argue that with a straight face.

It is even crazier because his interpretation relies on Linden not understanding what the term autonomy is, a term that isn’t exactly uncommon or difficult to understand, nor even interpreted or used in more than one way.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

In a roundabout way, you are basically agreeing with me that this is all speculation.

Since there is far more evidence out there to support that Benning’s number one choice was actually Cale Makar, I think it’s actually more likely that Benning may have been pushing hard behind the scenes to trade for Makar (which is what may have caused an internal debate if there ever was one). Again - SPECULATION.

Unfortunately, many posters do not want to consider this theory because Benning wanting to move up and select Makar doesn’t really paint Benning into too bad of a light. The Glass thing however would paint a terrible light on Benning.......which is why certain posters on here have gone as far as deliberately misquoting the sources that they’ve cited while attempting to pass off their speculation as fact. It’s a tired act. I’m tired of it and most other positive Canuck fans that want to cheer this team after 5 long years are tired of it. And we don’t appreciate it.

Why do you think anyone cares if you're cheering for the team? Cheer if you want. Be positive if you want. Build a shrine to Benning in your closet if you want. Nobody gives a shit. If you can't handle your beliefs being challenged, maybe this isn't the place for you.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Best not to get too worked up over it. He will keep repeating this and appears to be on some sort of a bizarre quest to force feed it down everyone’s throats despite his "source" being revealed as incredibly dubious. The facts don’t confirm any of this narrative, at least as we know them at this time. The only thing we really know is that there was a healthy debate and that Glass was never higher than Pettersson on their draft list. Anything else is trying to read a novel into the word autonomy.

Drance specifically states that Benning liked Glass a lot and that he wanted him higher on the list. Your own source says this. He doesn’t speculate on it either, he says that this is what he heard verbatim.

The evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the Benning/Glass vs Brackett/Pettersson interpretation. On radio, on Twitter, even reddit etc... Your interpretation is the outlier (use Hodgy’s post to you as a reference).

Frankly, MS is wasting his time trying to get the fringe elements to agree. It’s not necessary. Benning’s legacy was already destroyed by IMac. The extra insight just left no room for counter-argument. It closed up the seams.

This is the calmest any anti-Benning poster should be. Bask in this guys. The media just eliminated Benning’s legacy far better than decades worth of argument could have done.

 

[rypper]

We've all read the Ben Kuzma article, but if you believe that Ron Delorme who primarily scouts the WHL and has an completely brutal scouting record, was the absolute first person in the organization to discover Pettersson, you're out to lunch.

Completely disregard both logic and the fact that we have scouts who spend all their time in that region, but no they missed Pettersson completely and it was Ron Delorme who had a vision one night about Pettersson or something.

 

[Hit the post]

We've all read the Ben Kuzma article, but if you believe that Ron Delorme who primarily scouts the WHL and has an completely brutal scouting record, was the absolute first person in the organization to discover Pettersson, you're out to lunch.

If one believes that; I've got a bridge on Fraser Street I have to sell them.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Why do you think anyone cares if you're cheering for the team? Cheer if you want. Be positive if you want. Build a shrine to Benning in your closet if you want. Nobody gives a shit. If you can't handle your beliefs being challenged, maybe this isn't the place for you.

I have no problem with posters being critical of the team or questioning certain decisions. I do however, have a massive problem with posters deliberately misquoting sources with the soul purpose of trying to pass of their (the sources) clearly stated and PREFACED speculation and opinion as fact. I have no problem with my beliefs being challenged as beliefs being challenged is what leads to growth.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

We've all read the Ben Kuzma article, but if you believe that Ron Delorme who primarily scouts the WHL and has an completely brutal scouting record, was the absolute first person in the organization to discover Pettersson, you're out to lunch.

Completely disregard both logic and the fact that we have scouts who spend all their time in that region, but no they missed Pettersson completely and it was Ron Delorme who had a vision one night about Pettersson or something.

Where does Kuzma say that Delorme 'discovered' Pettersson..?

 

[Horse McHindu]

Drance specifically states that Benning liked Glass a lot and that he wanted him higher on the list. Your own source says this. He doesn’t speculate on it either, he says that this is what he heard verbatim.

That still doesn’t equate to Glass/Pettersson. Benning wanting Glass higher on the list simply could have meant from Glass from 9th to 6th or something. WE DONT KNOW. DRANCE HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE DOESNT KNOW!

This is the calmest any anti-Benning poster should be. Bask in this guys. The media just eliminated Benning’s legacy far better than decades worth of argument could have done.

LMAO. You reading this RoyalDude?

#BaskInThisGuys. #HesOneofUs

Ps - You do realize that 99.43257% of fans won’t care about any of this right? The only “Canucks fans” that will “bask in this” are....

1) A few handful of posters on here.
2) The Athletic and Vancast who may have collected a few more subscribers. $$$

Thanks for the laughs Bleach Clean.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I have no problem with posters being critical of the team or questioning certain decisions. I do however, have a massive problem with posters deliberately misquoting sources with the soul purpose of trying to pass of their (the sources) clearly stated and PREFACED speculation and opinion as fact. I have no problem with my beliefs being challenged as beliefs being challenged is what leads to growth.

Oh ffs. Why do you think Brackett and Linden both left? Do you think these are unrelated events? The dots are being literally connected in front of your face multiple times, and you're throwing out histrionics like slander and libel, only to change your tune five posts later when you actually bother to listen to the sources.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

"The media just eliminated Bennings legacy"..lol....thats a lark....If the Canucks can put in a good showing against the Wild..he could be on the shortlist for the Jim Gregory Award.


The source has to be considered.. ( namely ,the smug poster who has been telling us for the last 3 years that JB is out of the door)

 

[MS]

I have no problem with posters being critical of the team or questioning certain decisions. I do however, have a massive problem with posters deliberately misquoting sources with the soul purpose of trying to pass of their (the sources) clearly stated and PREFACED speculation and opinion as fact. I have no problem with my beliefs being challenged as beliefs being challenged is what leads to growth.

Speaking of, I’m still waiting for your confirmation of the completely unsubstantiated statement that Jim Benning traded for Jonathan Dahlen because he knew he was drafting Pettersson.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning..

“We saw Elias anywhere from 70 to 90 times in his draft year because he was a bit of a late bloomer. In Sweden, they identify top kids when they’re 12 or 13 and when he was 14 and 15, he wasn’t one of those. He came more into his own at 17 when he had a growth spurt.”

 

[Hodgy]

Benning..

“We saw Elias anywhere from 70 to 90 times in his draft year because he was a bit of a late bloomer. In Sweden, they identify top kids when they’re 12 or 13 and when he was 14 and 15, he wasn’t one of those. He came more into his own at 17 when he had a growth spurt.”

Lol. Do you realize that Benning could have also liked Pettersson but preferred someone else? We are talking about top ten prospects here, obviously the Canucks scouting department and Benning followed these prospects and liked lots, perhaps even all, of the top prospects. That quote in no way demonstrates at all that Pettersson was Benning’s pick.

I am waiting on your reply regarding your interpretation of “autonomy”. I would like you to either: provide a defensible interpretation of Linden’s comments where Benning wanted to pick Pettersson; or admit there is no reasonable interpreting other than Linden stepping in to ensure the scouts autonomy to pick Pettersson. Not a huge ask.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Speaking of, I’m still waiting for your confirmation of the completely unsubstantiated statement that Jim Benning traded for Jonathan Dahlen because he knew he was drafting Pettersson.

Benning: “Dahlen played a part” in Drafting Elias Pettersson

I will admit that I jumped the gun here.

I skimmed this article (yes, I realize the irony of me reading CanucksArmy here) and accidentally misinterpreted Benning trading for Dahlen for the specific purpose of drafting Pettersson. Drafting Pettersson was partly related to Dahlen being here.

I got carried away by the statement, “The Canucks took the first step when they acquired Pettersson’s teammate, Jonathan Dahlen, from the Ottawa Senators at the trade deadline.”

I made a mistake, and have owned up to it. I would certainly hope that you and a few others that are attempting to “connect the dots” from speculation and trying to pass this off as fact,” can do the same one day.

 

[Bleach Clean]

That still doesn’t equate to Glass/Pettersson. Benning wanting Glass higher on the list simply could have meant from Glass from 9th to 6th or something. WE DONT KNOW. DRANCE HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE DOESNT KNOW!



LMAO. You reading this RoyalDude?

#BaskInThisGuys. #HesOneofUs

Ps - You do realize that 99.43257% of fans won’t care about any of this right? The only “Canucks fans” that will “bask in this” are....

1) A few handful of posters on here.
2) The Athletic and Vancast who may have collected a few more subscribers. $$$

Thanks for the laughs Bleach Clean.

You’re welcome McHindu. Last poll on TSN1040 was 73% concerned that Brackett left vs no concern (when last I checked). Just a handful of posters here, right McHindu?

Why do you think this is the story with the team right now? Before we even knew that Brackett was confirmed to leave, there was about 6 weeks of talk. Why? Nobody cares right?

You’re consistent misinterpretation of Drance’s hits and other media sources should be of no concern to anyone. Really. As soon as it was clear that you were deliberately misrepresenting them, I stopped paying attention to your posts. I’m sure I’m not alone either.

The 9th to 6th placement of Glass gave me a chuckle as well. Good on you. With everything reported about 2 factions, Benning wanting Glass, Linden ensuring Brackett’s autonomy, the Canucks wanting a playmaking C etc... I’m sure the argument must have been over some other player? Lol.

You’ve hit another one out of the park McHindu. Stellar sleuthing there. Good job.

 

[Sneezy]

The coward part was directed at you purposefully provoking people by telling them they aren't real fans because they criticize management (based on logical reasons), and then when people respond to your post, you report the posts and the whole thing is deleted. To me, that seems pretty cowardly, as you purposefully troll people and then run away and play the victim card. Huge weasel move.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but people can simultaneously root for the team but dislike management. The fact that you seem to conflate critical posts with those posters not actually liking the team just shows that you can't reconcile the two concepts.

I don't know if you're purposefully missing the point, or unintentionally doing it, but either way it's a bad look.

How many times do I have to say REAL fans do not wish the team to lose, maybe it is not you but some of the Benning haters actually said they want the team to lose so he is fired. You never addressed that point.

And what post did I report? Why would I report any post your group makes, it is not worth the energy to click the mouse over the little button. Maybe I inadvertently hit the button???

Run away? Man you are grasping at straws, I am still working and cannot come here every minute of everyday so sue me that I cannot respond for a few hours or a day. And to be honest, it is not worth responding to some of you since you just keep posting the SAME THING every day. I have to ask you, do you not get tired of posting the same thing everyday?

I challenge you and MS to go this entire weekend without posting a single negative comment about JB because we all GET IT, you 2 do not like him. I will also not post anything positive about him. Is that a deal?

 

[Jack Burton]

Benning: “Dahlen played a part” in Drafting Elias Pettersson

I will admit that I jumped the gun here.

I skimmed this article (yes, I realize the irony of me reading CanucksArmy here) and accidentally misinterpreted Benning trading for Dahlen for the specific purpose of drafting Pettersson. Drafting Pettersson was partly related to Dahlen being here.

I got carried away by the statement, “The Canucks took the first step when they acquired Pettersson’s teammate, Jonathan Dahlen, from the Ottawa Senators at the trade deadline.”

I made a mistake, and have owned up to it. I would certainly hope that you and a few others that are attempting to “connect the dots” from speculation and trying to pass this off as fact,” can do the same one day.

"Connect the dots" is exactly what the other posters are trying to convey to you.

You need to stop apologizing and start piecing together what has happened over the last month for our Director of Amateur Scouting to walk out the door.

 

[Jack Burton]

How many times do I have to say REAL fans do not wish the team to lose, maybe it is not you but some of the Benning haters actually said they want the team to lose so he is fired. You never addressed that point.

And what post did I report? Why would I report any post your group makes, it is not worth the energy to click the mouse over the little button. Maybe I inadvertently hit the button???

Run away? Man you are grasping at straws, I am still working and cannot come here every minute of everyday so sue me that I cannot respond for a few hours or a day. And to be honest, it is not worth responding to some of you since you just keep posting the SAME THING every day. I have to ask you, do you not get tired of posting the same thing everyday?

I challenge you and MS to go this entire weekend without posting a single negative comment about JB because we all GET IT, you 2 do not like him. I will also not post anything positive about him. Is that a deal?

I challenge you to not post "real" or "fans" for this entire weekend.

After that then you may have the respect to ask anybody for something.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You’re welcome McHindu. Last poll on TSN1040 was 73% concerned that Brackett left vs no concern (when last I checked). Just a handful of posters here, right McHindu?

That has absolutely nothing to do with your UFOesque “Glass over Pettersson” shtick, nor does it discredit Benning in any way. Of course Brackett was an important part of our team. No one disputes that. I myself am sad that he’s leaving and am a little concerned.

You’re consistent misinterpretation of Drance’s hits and other media sources should be of no concern to anyone. Really. As soon as it was clear that you were deliberately misrepresenting them, I stopped paying attention to your posts. I’m sure I’m not alone either.

My consistent misinterpretation of Drance = LMAO!

I QUOTED EVERYTHING HE SAID AT VERBATIM! Like a literal translation and what time points he said those at. I made it a point to time stamp and transcribe everything that he said so that casual posters on here wouldn’t be subject to lies or deception......so bask in it?

Also - I’m not concerned even in the slightest if you or a few others have stopped paying attention to my posts....although the irony of you using the “deliberately misinterpreting” angle here is quite rich. #QUOTEDATVERBATIM. #TRANSCRIBEDATVERBATIM. #TIMESTAMPEDATVERBATIM

The 9th to 6th placement of Glass gave me a chuckle as well. Good on you. With everything reported about 2 factions, Benning wanting Glass, Linden ensuring Brackett’s autonomy, the Canucks wanting a playmaking C etc... I’m sure the argument must have been over some other player? Lol.

All of those sources that reported this, even prefaced it as, “we don’t actually know what went on,” and that, “there are a few people inside the organization that think that x and x may have occurred.”

It’s not fact!

Glass being moved up on the list does not mean Glass moved ahead of Pettersson!

Linden stating that he thinks that it’s important for scouts to have autonomy does NOT equate to, “Linden had to step in to overrule Benning.”

Instead of “basking in” Benning’s downfall (which is delusional thinking by the way), you guys should be more ashamed for deliberately and unscrupulously trying to pass off opinions as fact. I wonder if Thomas Drance appreciates you guys deliberately misinterpreting him?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Lol. Do you realize that Benning could have also liked Pettersson but preferred someone else? We are talking about top ten prospects here, obviously the Canucks scouting department and Benning followed these prospects and liked lots, perhaps even all, of the top prospects. That quote in no way demonstrates at all that Pettersson was Benning’s pick.

I am waiting on your reply regarding your interpretation of “autonomy”. I would like you to either: provide a defensible interpretation of Linden’s comments where Benning wanted to pick Pettersson; or admit there is no reasonable interpreting other than Linden stepping in to ensure the scouts autonomy to pick Pettersson. Not a huge ask.

It's not a black and white answer where Benning trudges up to the podium wanting Cody Glass...Or scouts and management walk into their preliminary scouting meetings in May (picking at #5), and all unanimously vote for the same player.....

As I said the other thread...there's possibility that JB and or JW preferred Glass (or whomever) earlier on in the May scouting meetings. (....there's nothing odd about that is there..?,..EP was somewhat of a risky pick)...The scouts were adamant on EP , Benning listened to the scouts and they collectively decided on Pettersson..( "it was a good honest debate"..Linden) '


Linden, speaking on 'autonomy' ...Linden speaks of letting the scouts speak freely and honestly 'about the pick' ,..and having their say 'about the pick'...Probably ,before this...they just reported on players, and kept their mouths shut to some degree.

Again, none of this goes with Benning being 'overruled' (he looked enthusiastic at the draft ...picking EP)

 

[Horse McHindu]

"Connect the dots" is exactly what the other posters are trying to convey to you.

You need to stop apologizing and start piecing together what has happened over the last month for our Director of Amateur Scouting to walk out the door.

Brackett and Benning/Weisbrod likely had a falling out (for reasons you and I discussed in a civil manner the other day, whether it was related to degree of autonomy, the amount of control one had in talent selections, former scouts working for the Canucks having left for other teams - I.e. McDonald to Arizona, etc.), but none of this is related to Glass/Pettersson....which is what my whole gripe is about.

WE CANNOT PASS OFF SPECULATION AS FACT NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE WANT OUR OWN PERSONAL NARRATIVES TO BE TRUE.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think guys like Matt Sekeres and Thomas Drance appreciate their self proclaimed fans misquoting them either.

 

[xtra]

Wait so why is drance an accepted source (over linden) but JD Burke not an accepted source?

both seem to work for the athletic and are on tsn1040 so seems kinda difficult to accept one and not the other.