Management Thread | Edge of the day AFTER Tomorrow

[Fatass]

If Marky is expecting term, over 5.5, and expansion draft protection, JB should trade his rights. Collect a third or fourth rounder, and move on.

 

[Fatass]

Well, neither can the majority of the scouting community, since Juolevi was ranked ahead of Sergachev in the majority of rankings.

2016 NHL Draft Rankings

I am constantly amazed at the revisionist history surrounding the Juolevi pick. Hell, if you go back to 2016, Tkachuk was winning "who is most likely to bust" HFBoards polls in a landslide, with many writing him off as a product of his lineage. Even he wasn't the slam dunk many proclaim him to have been after the fact. Now, all these years later, we're supposed to believe that Benning pulled rank and overruled his scouts, in spite of the fact that Brackett and co. were all begging him not to make such a horrible mistake?

The most anyone can say about that Juolevi pick, after it was made, was that he was arguably picked a few spots early. Anything beyond that is just hindsight. No one expected his development to turn out the way it did.

Mistakes like Virtanen and OJ greatly damage a rebuild (or whatever it was that Benning was trying to accomplish). Maybe if Benning had added more picks during those years (instead of trading picks away) he might have drafted a couple guys to compensate for those two misses? He didn’t though, so the two mistakes are magnified. This all goes to the original Aquilini instructions to compete while turning over the roster, which Benning (obviously) said he could do. It was wrong then, and it’s proven to be wrong now, because it magnifies the importance of not missing with those high first round picks.

 

[nowhereman]

Mistakes like Virtanen and OJ greatly damage a rebuild (or whatever it was that Benning was trying to accomplish). Maybe if Benning had added more picks during those years (instead of trading picks away) he might have drafted a couple guys to compensate for those two misses? He didn’t though, so the two mistakes are magnified. This all goes to the original Aquilini instructions to compete while turning over the roster, which Benning (obviously) said he could do. It was wrong then, and it’s proven to be wrong now, because it magnifies the importance of not missing with those high first round picks.

You're side-stepping.

I'm not arguing anything about the fallout of those picks or the effect they had on the rebuild. Of course missing picks hurts. Who would try to debate the contrary? What I'm arguing is that the Juolevi pick (and the Virtanen pick, if you want to throw him in too) were not bad/wrong picks at the time. I have time for the argument that Juolevi was chosen 1-2 picks ahead of where the consensus had deemed it appropriate to pick him (i.e behind Tkachuk) but both he and Virtanen were not stretches to go where they went (Virtanen especially). Claiming that taking Juolevi over Sergachev is proof Benning can't evaluate defensemen ignores that, based on rankings in the scouting community, most teams/scouts probably agreed with Benning's assessment at the time.

This line of thinking is all part of serving the continued narrative that everything draft-related that Benning touched was a disaster.

 

[Fatass]

You're side-stepping.

I'm not arguing anything about the fallout of those picks or the effect they had on the rebuild. Of course missing picks hurts. Who would try to debate the contrary? What I'm arguing is that the Juolevi pick (and the Virtanen pick, if you want to throw him in too) were not bad/wrong picks at the time. I have time for the argument that Juolevi was chosen 1-2 picks ahead of where the consensus had deemed it appropriate to pick him (i.e behind Tkachuk) but both he and Virtanen were not stretches to go where they went (Virtanen especially). Claiming that taking Juolevi over Sergachev is proof Benning can't evaluate defensemen ignores that, based on rankings in the scouting community, most teams/scouts probably agreed with Benning's assessment at the time.

This line of thinking is all part of serving the continued narrative that everything draft-related that Benning touched was a disaster.

I want my team to win a Cup. That’s not happening with a ?GM who has the mistake riddled tenure Benning has.

 

[xtra]

You're side-stepping.

I'm not arguing anything about the fallout of those picks or the effect they had on the rebuild. Of course missing picks hurts. Who would try to debate the contrary? What I'm arguing is that the Juolevi pick (and the Virtanen pick, if you want to throw him in too) were not bad/wrong picks at the time. I have time for the argument that Juolevi was chosen 1-2 picks ahead of where the consensus had deemed it appropriate to pick him (i.e behind Tkachuk) but both he and Virtanen were not stretches to go where they went (Virtanen especially). Claiming that taking Juolevi over Sergachev is proof Benning can't evaluate defensemen ignores that, based on rankings in the scouting community, most teams/scouts probably agreed with Benning's assessment at the time.

This line of thinking is all part of serving the continued narrative that everything draft-related that Benning touched was a disaster.

Expect both were taken over players who were clearly better than them in tkachuk and ehlers/nylander.

I watched them play and it was obvious who the better player was. We took Juloevi/Jake for reasons not related to who the best player was. Jake cause he was a local boy and then OJ cause he was a dman and we had the same type of player in Jake that tkachuk was projected as.

 

[F A N]

Expect both were taken over players who were clearly better than them in tkachuk and ehlers/nylander.

I watched them play and it was obvious who the better player was. We took Juloevi/Jake for reasons not related to who the best player was. Jake cause he was a local boy and then OJ cause he was a dman and we had the same type of player in Jake that tkachuk was projected as.

That's clearly not the perception at the time though. McKenzie had Jake ahead of both Ehlers and Nylander. He had Juolevi in the same class of player as Tkachuk. I think the Flames were also very high on Jake and Juolevi.

 

[iceburg]

Mistakes like Virtanen and OJ greatly damage a rebuild (or whatever it was that Benning was trying to accomplish). Maybe if Benning had added more picks during those years (instead of trading picks away) he might have drafted a couple guys to compensate for those two misses? He didn’t though, so the two mistakes are magnified. This all goes to the original Aquilini instructions to compete while turning over the roster, which Benning (obviously) said he could do. It was wrong then, and it’s proven to be wrong now, because it magnifies the importance of not missing with those high first round picks.

And seeing Sergachev playing a prominent role for a team in the final screams this point out loud.

 

[xtra]

That's clearly not the perception at the time though. McKenzie had Jake ahead of both Ehlers and Nylander. He had Juolevi in the same class of player as Tkachuk. I think the Flames were also very high on Jake and Juolevi.

Button had Jake at 43, thn had him at 11.
I’ll give you that iss had him at 7 but I believe that’s among North American players only.

Same class of player vs who the better player was is a way of deflecting the criticism of not taking the better player.

At the draft did you have Jake/OJ as the better player?


Side note this is also the first I’ve heard of the flames being high on OJ. I thought they like sergachev

 

[carrotshirt]

That's clearly not the perception at the time though. McKenzie had Jake ahead of both Ehlers and Nylander. He had Juolevi in the same class of player as Tkachuk. I think the Flames were also very high on Jake and Juolevi.

Yeah, nobody was disappointed we picked Juolevi, listen to the rapture of the crowd when his name was called!

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Mistakes like Virtanen and OJ greatly damage a rebuild (or whatever it was that Benning was trying to accomplish). Maybe if Benning had added more picks during those years (instead of trading picks away) he might have drafted a couple guys to compensate for those two misses? He didn’t though, so the two mistakes are magnified. This all goes to the original Aquilini instructions to compete while turning over the roster, which Benning (obviously) said he could do. It was wrong then, and it’s proven to be wrong now, because it magnifies the importance of not missing with those high first round picks.

Well 2014 had McCann, Demko, Tryamkin, and Forsling as well as Virtanen. So no lack of picks that year or lack of value from them. They picked up picks trading Bieksa and Garrison, traded pick for Linden Vey ugh. Then traded McCann and Forsling for useless dman. Trades were main issue of 2014 draft it was a good draft. The 2016 draft is a failed draft by Benning thus far though I still have some small hope. 2015, 17, 18 drafts were excellent. Ufa signing have been main issue recently. The draft has been a strength based on any standard since 2014. Many tank teams have had many picks and miss them all after the 1st round. It is no guarantee. We luckily got 2 stars recently so have a lot to build on.

 

[F A N]

Button had Jake at 43, thn had him at 11.
I’ll give you that iss had him at 7 but I believe that’s among North American players only.

Don't try to change history there. That 2014 draft had a top 4. Then Da Colle was thought to be the next best player. There was no consensus after that except Fleury was the top Dman available. Speaking of Craig Button, in his mock draft he had Virtanen going to us.

Same class of player vs who the better player was is a way of deflecting the criticism of not taking the better player.

At the draft did you have Jake/OJ as the better player?

I would have taken Tkachuk. It doesn't change the fact that the sentiment was that the Canucks could have reasonably gone with Juolevi if they were looking for a defenseman. It was considered, by some, to be that close.

Side note this is also the first I’ve heard of the flames being high on OJ. I thought they like sergachev

Well it's no secret. You can even go on Flames boards at the time and the overall sentiment was that the Flames would have picked Juolevi. That's one reason the Canucks couldn't trade down.

Here's one fan blog talking about it.

 

[racerjoe]

Don't try to change history there. That 2014 draft had a top 4. Then Da Colle was thought to be the next best player. There was no consensus after that except Fleury was the top Dman available. Speaking of Craig Button, in his mock draft he had Virtanen going to us.



I would have taken Tkachuk. It doesn't change the fact that the sentiment was that the Canucks could have reasonably gone with Juolevi if they were looking for a defenseman. It was considered, by some, to be that close.



Well it's no secret. You can even go on Flames boards at the time and the overall sentiment was that the Flames would have picked Juolevi. That's one reason the Canucks couldn't trade down.

Here's one fan blog talking about it.

The bolded is true, but I don't see how it helps your case... he ended up being correct this is where VANCOUVER would pick him. Button also ranked him 43rd or whatever it was.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Button had Jake at 43, thn had him at 11.
I’ll give you that iss had him at 7 but I believe that’s among North American players only.

Same class of player vs who the better player was is a way of deflecting the criticism of not taking the better player.

At the draft did you have Jake/OJ as the better player?


Side note this is also the first I’ve heard of the flames being high on OJ. I thought they like sergachev

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The bolded is true, but I don't see how it helps your case... he ended up being correct this is where VANCOUVER would pick him. Button also ranked him 43rd or whatever it was.

TSN 2014 NHL Mock Draft with Craig Button

1. Aaron Ekblad
2. Sam Bennett
3. Leon Draisaitl
4. Sam Reinhart
5. Michael Dal Colle
6. Jake Virtanen
7. Haydn Fleury
8. Nick Ritchie
9. Nikolaj Ehlers
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. William Nylander

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/06/24/tsn-2014-nhl-mock-draft-with-craig-button/

 

[Hit the post]

meh. He kept the wrong player (Virtanen over McCann).

 

[carrotshirt]

TSN 2014 NHL Mock Draft with Craig Button

1. Aaron Ekblad
2. Sam Bennett
3. Leon Draisaitl
4. Sam Reinhart
5. Michael Dal Colle
6. Jake Virtanen
7. Haydn Fleury
8. Nick Ritchie
9. Nikolaj Ehlers
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. William Nylander

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/06/24/tsn-2014-nhl-mock-draft-with-craig-button/

Do you really not know that a mock draft is not the same as a prospect ranking? It was already said, Button had Virtanen at 43, yet he also saw that Jim was dumb enough to pick him at 6. This is not something that makes Jim Benning look good.

 

[racerjoe]

TSN 2014 NHL Mock Draft with Craig Button

1. Aaron Ekblad
2. Sam Bennett
3. Leon Draisaitl
4. Sam Reinhart
5. Michael Dal Colle
6. Jake Virtanen
7. Haydn Fleury
8. Nick Ritchie
9. Nikolaj Ehlers
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. William Nylander

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/06/24/tsn-2014-nhl-mock-draft-with-craig-button/

You do know what a mock draft is vs rankings right?

 

[Fatass]

meh. He kept the wrong player (Virtanen over McCann).

Yup. That McCann trade wasn’t “real Gud”

 

[Hit the post]

You do know what a mock draft is vs rankings right?

St Anger was a masterpiece that was just misunderstood.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You do know what a mock draft is vs rankings right?

I do...and Buttons rankings are all over the map...The standard is Bob McK list.and the draft followed that pretty much.

 

[Canucks1096]

The expectations on Benning it is so ridiculous, do people really expect a GM to get all his 1st round picks right and every transaction right! That is close impossible, Yzerman one of the better gms out there picked Drouin over Jones. A 5 to 7 year stretch it is very hard to get all the 1st round pick right even with top 10 picks. I can think one team which is the Jets from 2011 to 2016 they got all their 1st round pick. You will have hard time to naming another team.

Yes Juolevi and Virtanen were bad picks. If you look at the 1st pick combined. 6th 23rd 5th 5th 7th. Canucks ended up with 1st line center, number 1 D, 1st line winger. Middle 6 winger, bottom pairing D that maybe can be a top 4. Considering the fact that there was picked higher 5. I would say 1st round drafting it is still above average. Also Podkolzin look like at least a second line winger

This always happens on this forum, when a trade/signing or draft pick doesn't work out. A few years later tbose people start acting like experts and letting us know it was obvious to picked someone else. That wasn't the case with the Virtnane and Juolevi pick.

The funny thing is on the Virtanen forum for years. When people look at Virtanen as the player only and not Benning draft pick. We have people saying he is better than Ehlers and Nylander but when we look at Virtanen as Benning draft pick, he wasn't the right pick.

More than half weren't happy with the Petey and Hughes pick.

People always say should of went with the consensus pick and drafted Tkachuk. If that is the strategy then Canucks don't draft Petey because he wasn't the consensus pick.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

TSN 2014 NHL Mock Draft with Craig Button

1. Aaron Ekblad
2. Sam Bennett
3. Leon Draisaitl
4. Sam Reinhart
5. Michael Dal Colle
6. Jake Virtanen
7. Haydn Fleury
8. Nick Ritchie
9. Nikolaj Ehlers
10. Kasperi Kapanen
11. William Nylander

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/06/24/tsn-2014-nhl-mock-draft-with-craig-button/

2014 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings
That was his mock draft, not his rankings. Almost every mock draft you will find had Virtanen at 6, as everyone knew he was going to Vancouver.

 

[racerjoe]

I do...and Buttons rankings are all over the map...The standard is Bob McK list.and the draft followed that pretty much.

so he has a good grasp on what teams will draft, probably lots of insider info... that doesn’t mean anything in terms of where Joulevi was drafted.

look up the difference.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

so he has a good grasp on what teams will draft, probably lots of insider info... that doesn’t mean anything in terms of where Joulevi was drafted.

look up the difference.

Juolevi and Virtanen were picked practically where they were predicted.. and Juolevi was not going go past 6OA as Burke confirmed.

 

[racerjoe]

Juolevi and Virtanen were picked practically where they were predicted.. and Juolevi was not going go past 6OA as Burke confirmed.

yeah learn the difference in Mock and rankings then we can pick this conversation up.