Management Thread | Edge of the day AFTER Tomorrow

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Canucks rank 8th in the latest prospect pool rankings..namely on the strength of the 2019 draft..
https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/

 

[nowhereman]

Only on HFBenn . . . HFCanucks would someone crow about a farm system ranking that includes Petey and Hughes, while excluding the upcoming draft, where our first pick is what, the third round? At a time where everyone is talking about adding prospects to get rid of contracts that Benning has signed that have bitten us in the ass (documented).

What's next, crowing about some other dinosaur GM's giving Benning some votes for GM of the year simply because the team faced a weakened Blues team with Seivington in net and rode hot goaltending to extend a blowout series to 7 games, against a team that was eliminated by Dallas in 5?

Oh wait, been there done that? Huh.

Honest question... do you hate Benning more than you cheer for the Canucks? Are you willing to deny any marker of success to the Canucks, just because it means you'd have to concede a modicum of credit to management?

"HFBenning"? Oh, dear...

 

[I am toxic]

Honest question... do you hate Benning more than you cheer for the Canucks? Are you willing to deny any marker of success to the Canucks, just because it means you'd have to concede a modicum of credit to management?

"HFBenning"? Oh, dear...

Honest question, are you a fan of the crest on the front of the jersey, or the nameplate on the front of the GM's door?

 

[MarkMM]

Honest question... do you hate Benning more than you cheer for the Canucks? Are you willing to deny any marker of success to the Canucks, just because it means you'd have to concede a modicum of credit to management?

"HFBenning"? Oh, dear...

Why are you ignoring the substance of the comment? Simple fact that due to Benning's bone-headed contract management and history of trading away picks/prospects we're in a position now of having to trade away good assets to off-load his wasted cap space. COVID made this worse but these were cap issues that people have been flagging the moment these contracts were signed, so it's not #hindsight.

 

[RandV]

Crowing? Guy just posted a link...

And those were the authors' system rankings. Don't like the rankings? ok, but he's supposed to include picks from a draft that hasn't taken place yet? Makes sense

I don't know what's being looked at, but I tend to agree that the standard rule of prospect/organization rankings where you cut players off based on a limited number of GP isn't very accurate. Personally I would favour a standard prospects + all entry level contracts, shifting the focus from 'he's played some games in the NHL' to 'he's earned an NHL contract based on actual ability'. I suspect something like that is happening here and in Vancouver's case that leaves us with Pettersson and Hughes which is a huge boost.

That said, it's kind of redundant to put out an organization ranking just before you head into the draft as that's a huge and highly uneven influx of talent into everyone's system - which the Canucks are largely missing out on as things are now.

 

[F A N]

Honest question, are you a fan of the crest on the front of the jersey, or the nameplate on the front of the GM's door?

Which crest? The Orca? Stick in Rink? Flying V? Flying Skates?

 

[m9]

I don't know what's being looked at, but I tend to agree that the standard rule of prospect/organization rankings where you cut players off based on a limited number of GP isn't very accurate. Personally I would favour a standard prospects + all entry level contracts, shifting the focus from 'he's played some games in the NHL' to 'he's earned an NHL contract based on actual ability'. I suspect something like that is happening here and in Vancouver's case that leaves us with Pettersson and Hughes which is a huge boost.

That said, it's kind of redundant to put out an organization ranking just before you head into the draft as that's a huge and highly uneven influx of talent into everyone's system - which the Canucks are largely missing out on as things are now.

Yes, agreed with all of this. A prospect ranking is particularly useless as there will be major changes in just a few weeks.

 

[I am toxic]

Which crest? The Orca? Stick in Rink? Flying V? Flying Skates?

Well, being a true Canucks fan since 1972, I can say all of them.

Unlike HFBenning posters who poo poo the previous GM's record (who assembled a multi-year contender that came within 1 win of the Cup) and crow about false positive moves made by the current GM.

 

[Fatass]

Yes, agreed with all of this. A prospect ranking is particularly useless as there will be major changes in just a few weeks.

And how many of these young prospects do we need to use as sweetener in deals to dump Benning’s old guys with toxic contracts, so we have cap room to sign our elite young guys? It’s just so insane we are in a cap hell situation that forces us to trade away prospects. Thanks Benning.

 

[m9]

And how many of these young prospects do we need to use as sweetener in deals to dump Benning’s old guys with toxic contracts, so we have cap room to sign our elite young guys? It’s just so insane we are in a cap hell situation that forces us to trade away prospects. Thanks Benning.

And while I agree with all that, it's also fine to just discuss what was posted and that was the organizational rankings of the players 22 & under. Placing 3rd there is still good. Not every post needs to be a referendum on the entire organization.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Honest question... do you hate Benning more than you cheer for the Canucks? Are you willing to deny any marker of success to the Canucks, just because it means you'd have to concede a modicum of credit to management?

"HFBenning"? Oh, dear...

Which marker has he denied in the post he made?

As an aside, the links being posted by POM shouldn’t bother people. Yes, he ignored similar contrary information for 4 years, and everyone knows this, but he hasn’t created the content within. It’s just that his timing is impeccable.

Take the information for what it is, rather than who is posting it.

 

[Fatass]

And while I agree with all that, it's also fine to just discuss what was posted and that was the organizational rankings of the players 22 & under. Placing 3rd there is still good. Not every post needs to be a referendum on the entire organization.

Agreed. I’m glad we had Bracket leading our scouting to building a top three prospect group. But I’m also disappointed knowing Benning has created a cap problem that he resolves by using those Bracket picked prospects to dump his horrid contracts. After this off season Benning might have moved us from number three to number 23.

 

[F A N]

And how many of these young prospects do we need to use as sweetener in deals to dump Benning’s old guys with toxic contracts, so we have cap room to sign our elite young guys? It’s just so insane we are in a cap hell situation that forces us to trade away prospects. Thanks Benning.

Well I'm not sure we are forced to trade away prospects. It's a matter of perspective. I can say that we're talking about wanting to re-sign a 30 year old goalie (with a 24 year old goalie who looks ready to take his place), a soon to be 31 year old Dman with a history of not staying healthy (there is no direct replacement but nothing wrong with moving on), and a 28 year old top 6 forward that could age quickly. Is the team in a cap hell situation which forces them to trade away prospects if they simply let these guys go?

 

[Jyrki21]

TSN's alphabetical rankings have the Canucks second from the bottom in the Pacific Division. An outrage!

 

[I am toxic]

TSN's alphabetical rankings have the Canucks second from the bottom in the Pacific Division. An outrage!

Alphabetism!

 

[xtra]

Well I'm not sure we are forced to trade away prospects. It's a matter of perspective. I can say that we're talking about wanting to re-sign a 30 year old goalie (with a 24 year old goalie who looks ready to take his place), a soon to be 31 year old Dman with a history of not staying healthy (there is no direct replacement but nothing wrong with moving on), and a 28 year old top 6 forward that could age quickly. Is the team in a cap hell situation which forces them to trade away prospects if they simply let these guys go?

I mean the gm just said he’s not willing to move picks to move bad contracts. So unless your saying we just keep all the bad contracts prospects will have to go to move them out.

 

[Bleach Clean]

And how many of these young prospects do we need to use as sweetener in deals to dump Benning’s old guys with toxic contracts, so we have cap room to sign our elite young guys? It’s just so insane we are in a cap hell situation that forces us to trade away prospects. Thanks Benning.

It is insane. You couldn’t make worse work of the cap if you tried. But the real kicker is that some fans/media will justify this as a function of choice and not dilemma. This is supposed to be a team in position to add major cap, not have to consider the loss of good players to retain poor ones.

It’s a mess. Losing Tryamkin was only the beginning.

 

[Fatass]

It is insane. You couldn’t make worse work of the cap if you tried. But the real kicker is that some fans/media will justify this as a function of choice and not dilemma. This is supposed to be a team in position to add major cap, not have to consider the loss of good players to retain poor ones.

It’s a mess. Losing Tryamkin was only the beginning.

Which means we get worse now, and in the future too, because we don’t have the prospect depth to sustain a winning team. It’s just so frustrating as a fan to see we finally have the elite young pieces to build around, but Benning screwed up the cap, so we can’t properly build around them. Really, we should be discussing possibly signing a much needed piece, like Pietrangelo, and not talking about which of our young players need to be wasted as sweetener to dump our toxic contracts.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yes, agreed with all of this. A prospect ranking is particularly useless as there will be major changes in just a few weeks.

As usual , any positive news about the team here, is immediately seized on, and attempts are made to disqualify it..lol

Even pre draft, being considered the 3rd best team to have the best organizational depth (under 23) is still impressive..Especially considering that we have already have an established core (1-2 punch at C, 1D, elite goalie and wingers)..The Devils and Rangers don't have that, and both have won the lottery.

The 2nd (I'm assuming 51stOA) might be a sunk cost, but the 1st for Miller was a homerun for Benning..Even without this years 1st and 2nd, I still predict we finish in the top 10 in the Athletics rankings next year...This will be on the backs of Podz and Hogs marinating overseas.

 

[m9]

As usual , any positive news about the team here, is immediately seized on, and attempts are made to disqualify it..lol

Even pre draft, being considered the 3rd best team to have the best organizational depth (under 23) is still impressive..Especially considering that we have already have an established core (1-2 punch at C, 1D, elite goalie and wingers)..The Devils and Rangers don't have that, and both have won the lottery.

The 2nd (I'm assuming 51stOA) might be a sunk cost, but the 1st for Miller was a homerun for Benning..Even without this years 1st and 2nd, I still predict we finish in the top 10 in the Athletics rankings next year...This will be on the backs of Podz and Hogs marinating overseas.

Did you even read the post that I am quoting, or are you just purposefully trying to spin things negatively again? The poster I am quoting is basically suggesting a system similar to what Pronman used as a better benchmark than the usual "GP" we have seen in the past. So basically saying yes, that system that says the Canucks are 3rd is better than what has been used in the past.

And while I agree with all that, it's also fine to just discuss what was posted and that was the organizational rankings of the players 22 & under. Placing 3rd there is still good. Not every post needs to be a referendum on the entire organization.

Also, weird that you accuse me of being negative and yet skip right by this positive post from me like 3 posts later.

 

[tradervik]

Bandy, how did I miss that??

Oh yeah: "Corey Pronman’s annual deep dive into the farm system of every NHL organization will be slightly different this year."

You left out a few important details. The complete paragraph is:

Corey Pronman’s annual deep dive into the farm system of every NHL organization will be slightly different this year. First, it is occurring before the draft because of the change in schedule this season. But this allows you to see where teams stand going into the draft, and Pronman will update the rankings after the draft. Second, it will include all skaters in the organization who are 22 or younger as of Sept. 15, 2020, regardless of how many NHL games they’ve played. This allowed us to incorporate a lot of great young players who were on the fringe of graduating based on our old definition. Check out the full explanation of Pronman’s eligibility and the full ranking of all 31 systems here.​

Pronman has Juolevi, Rafferty, Rathbone, and Woo as "legit NHL players". Don't know if that's the scouting consensus (seems a bit optimistic) but it will be immense for the future success of the team if at least 3 of these guys pan out. Hard to see the Canucks going anywhere if they don't, fantasy trades notwithstanding.

 

[Canuck86]

You left out a few important details. The complete paragraph is:

Corey Pronman’s annual deep dive into the farm system of every NHL organization will be slightly different this year. First, it is occurring before the draft because of the change in schedule this season. But this allows you to see where teams stand going into the draft, and Pronman will update the rankings after the draft. Second, it will include all skaters in the organization who are 22 or younger as of Sept. 15, 2020, regardless of how many NHL games they’ve played. This allowed us to incorporate a lot of great young players who were on the fringe of graduating based on our old definition. Check out the full explanation of Pronman’s eligibility and the full ranking of all 31 systems here.​

Pronman has Juolevi, Rafferty, Rathbone, and Woo as "legit NHL players". Don't know if that's the scouting consensus (seems a bit optimistic) but it will be immense for the future success of the team if at least 3 of these guys pan out. Hard to see the Canucks going anywhere if they don't, fantasy trades notwithstanding.

He is swinging for the fences... OJ was a top pick and is maybe going to crack our "rock solid" D core next year maybe. Rafftery a 25 yr old AHL D man, might be a fringe NHL player or bottom pair guy, Rathbone...hope the kid makes it and can be a 2nd PP unit threat, Woo- see how he does if he makes the Comets or goes overseas or plays over age in W, if thats possible i dunno. Woo is still a bit of a ways away.

Our D prospects in Utica are underwhelming, they may get some cups of coffee here and there but most likely to be anymore than that, a depth call up guy at best.

 

[Lindgren]

You left out a few important details. The complete paragraph is:

Corey Pronman’s annual deep dive into the farm system of every NHL organization will be slightly different this year. First, it is occurring before the draft because of the change in schedule this season. But this allows you to see where teams stand going into the draft, and Pronman will update the rankings after the draft. Second, it will include all skaters in the organization who are 22 or younger as of Sept. 15, 2020, regardless of how many NHL games they’ve played. This allowed us to incorporate a lot of great young players who were on the fringe of graduating based on our old definition. Check out the full explanation of Pronman’s eligibility and the full ranking of all 31 systems here.​

Pronman has Juolevi, Rafferty, Rathbone, and Woo as "legit NHL players". Don't know if that's the scouting consensus (seems a bit optimistic) but it will be immense for the future success of the team if at least 3 of these guys pan out. Hard to see the Canucks going anywhere if they don't, fantasy trades notwithstanding.

For those who haven't read Pronman's piece, here are his tiers:
Special NHL Player
Elite NHL Player
High End NHL Player
Very Good NHL Player
Legit NHL Player
NHL Potential

Pronman doesn't explain the criteria for his tiers, at least not where I could find such an explanation. "Legit" sounds, well, legit, but his reports suggest to me that he thinks such players have no more than a good chance to contribute at the bottom end of a line-up, while "potential" players have at best a shot at making the league. Others might read it differently.

 

[xtra]

For those who haven't read Pronman's piece, here are his tiers:
Special NHL Player
Elite NHL Player
High End NHL Player
Very Good NHL Player
Legit NHL Player
NHL Potential

Pronman doesn't explain the criteria for his tiers, at least not where I could find such an explanation. "Legit" sounds, well, legit, but his reports suggest to me that he thinks such players have no more than a good chance to contribute at the bottom end of a line-up, while "potential" players have at best a shot at making the league. Others might read it differently.

Yea I haven’t had a chance to read it but from what your saying it’s basically off the backs of Hughes and pettersson that he thinks we are a top 3 organization under 22(not 23)

 

[Lindgren]

The Habs signed Edmundson after trading a 5th rounder for his rights. Will that deal presage any more like it? Will Benning try to get something for any of the pending UFAs?