Man Mountain's partner

[Kriss E]

Except that it's actually a terrible post. His perspective on what makes a dman effective offensively is so convoluted that it's laughable. At the end of the day, you can produce all the "offense" in the world but it doesn't mean anything if you don't score. See: Lars Eller.

Well one tiny little detail, Lars Eller wasn't all that great at producing much offense and you're talking about a forward, not a Dman.

Ok, I'm willing to admit Weber in his own zone doesn't have the greatest breakouts but he protects the net and wins every puck battle which leads to a change in possession. He certainly makes his d partners look better.

In the neutral zone, I'd like to see him carry the puck over the blue line more since he's so good at it but the puck will end up in the o zone almost all the time so he does fine there.

In the ozone, he absolutely makes everyone around him better. To say otherwise is crazy. The effect that his presence has is underrated. His shot commands respect and gives his teammates more room to work. Don't respect it and you get burned. He's also fantastic at pinching. He always picks the right spot to do it. Having him back there also allows his partner to focus more on offense.

Against the rush hid gap control, stick and sheer size just make him impossible to get by resulting in a turnover or dump in most of the time.

So yes, Weber may not drive the play but he creates tons of offense regardless. The bottom line is that we score way more than we get scored on when he's out there and that's fine for me. Also, Burns and Karlsson are not overrated offensively...

Well whether he creates some offense or not isn't the point.
TTG's point was more about how do his teammates do when they aren't used with him on the ice. If they end up producing pretty much the same with or without him, then his help driving the play forward isn't all that great.

 

[Kriss E]

There is very little right about this post. And it's more completely unsupported feelings and impressions that seem to stem from a preconceived notion of Shea Weber as opposed to actual observation as his career has unfolded and resulting data. I just don't even...

TTG is as neutral a poster can be here. He also brought up Chara, Pronger, Burns, Karlsson, Green...

His point is that looking at how much a Dman drives the play forward is a better indication of how much he helps the team's offense, as opposed to only looking at goals or points.
He's completely right about this.

 

[Wats]

Alzner - Weber
NOTE: I think this pairing can be relied on for low GA against top competition. Hopefully they eat up all the D-Zone matchups and difficult icetime. Low expectations for any offense.

Jarabek/Streit - Petry
NOTE: This is wishful thinking that Jarabek can be something between Diaz/Emelin in his rookie year. This pairing would get the easier matchups and a lot of O-Zone starts. If not, hopefully Streit can be rejuvenated and give another top 4 quality season. Will be relied on for offense.

Schlemko - Benn
NOTE: In theory should be a solid bottom pairing. Davidson will be there in case of injury.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

TTG is as neutral a poster can be here. He also brought up Chara, Pronger, Burns, Karlsson, Green...

His point is that looking at how much a Dman drives the play forward is a better indication of how much he helps the team's offense, as opposed to only looking at goals or points.
He's completely right about this.

Then provide numbers to support it instead of just offering an opinion to counter an opinion. That's all I ask. Put numbers to "drive the play forward better". Because I see a guy who scores more goals AND points than most other defensemen year in, year out, despite not carrying the puck all over the place, so I'd like to see the value of skating around with the puck on your stick quantified in a way that I can actually compare peers.

Total nonsense.

Your go to position when challenged always seems to be to go back to attacking the poster and claiming bias or "preconceived notions".... Attack the guy on the facts and stop running away from his arguments.

Same answer goes to you. Offer something more than just opinion to counter an opinion, and we'll get somewhere. Actual data/facts, not just opinions/impressions.

 

[Constable]

I still don't see how the majority of people here can even fathom a good performance from Alzner with top minutes. He paled in Washington, so much so to be scratched during the playoffs.

I reiterate:

Schlemko-Weber
Alzner-Petry
Jerabek-Benn

 

[DangerDave]

Well one tiny little detail, Lars Eller wasn't all that great at producing much offense and you're talking about a forward, not a Dman.



Well whether he creates some offense or not isn't the point.
TTG's point was more about how do his teammates do when they aren't used with him on the ice. If they end up producing pretty much the same with or without him, then his help driving the play forward isn't all that great.

Yeah except driving the play does not necessarily equate offense...

 

[1909]

I still don't see how the majority of people here can even fathom a good performance from Alzner with top minutes. He paled in Washington, so much so to be scratched during the playoffs.

I reiterate:

Schlemko-Weber
Alzner-Petry
Jerabek-Benn

The guy was playing INJURED !

 

[Price is Wright]

The guy was playing INJURED !

Go to the Caps forum. Check the gdts. All season long they complained about Alzner. It wasn't just the playoffs.

But I've banged that drum enough. People refuse to believe even after the Briere signing that Bergevin would sign a guy based on his reputation instead of his present situation.

 

[Habsawce]

If they can't get a centre because "it's too hard" then get a proper #2 LHD for Weber. I'm not looking forward to seeing him with a different partner all year.

 

[Constable]

Yeah except driving the play does not necessarily equate offense...

Except it does?

Driving play requires the puck. Having the puck, you score more.

 

[Habsawce]

Go to the Caps forum. Check the gdts. All season long they complained about Alzner. It wasn't just the playoffs.

But I've banged that drum enough. People refuse to believe even after the Briere signing that Bergevin would sign a guy based on his reputation instead of his present situation.

I'm confident they got Alzner to play with Petry. While Alzner has limitations, I think his game does transfer well with a player like Petry who doesn't overplay his position and has exceptional skating ability.

They're going to be given tough assignments in defensive spots.

 

[LaP]

I still don't see how the majority of people here can even fathom a good performance from Alzner with top minutes. He paled in Washington, so much so to be scratched during the playoffs.

I reiterate:

Schlemko-Weber
Alzner-Petry
Jerabek-Benn

Schlemko is not a better option. The only time he played top 4 minutes was one season in NJ and he finished that season -22 (worst differential among NJ dmen by a fair margin) and the team missed the playoffs. Expecting him to play 24-25 minutes for 82 games + playoffs is ludicrous.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Go to the Caps forum. Check the gdts. All season long they complained about Alzner. It wasn't just the playoffs.

Search the legitimate news channels for coverage of the issue instead of sifting through HFBoard opinion. He was also recovering all year from sports hernia surgery in the summer, and further tweaked his groin as the season went on. He's going to recover from that, even if it's "eventually".

Also from the news instead of HF, you'll learn that he was shut down day-to-day in the playoffs because of concerns about exacerbating an upper body injury, not level of play or unreliability as was obviously suggested by the poster who has very little familiarity with the situation.

I'd provide links, but pretty much every google search result for "alzner injured" provides the necessary insight. And at least one article referred to him as a "1st pairing, shutdown defenseman", incidentally.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Except it does?

Driving play requires the puck. Having the puck, you score more.

Your team, yes, not necessarily a defenseman skating around everywhere with it.

 

[Constable]

Schlemko is not a better option. The only time he played top 4 minutes was one season in NJ and he finished that season -22 (worst differential among NJ dmen by a fair margin) and the team missed the playoffs. Expecting him to play 24-25 minutes for 82 games + playoffs is ludicrous.

I love that you're blaming David ****ing Schlemko for the Devils not making the playoffs that year; and you used +/- in an analysis so you're opinion is very, very, flawed.

David Schlemko isn't the answer for Weber's partner. Unfortunately, it's either him or Jerabek as Alzner or Benn are the exact opposites of answers.

 

[Constable]

Your team, yes, not necessarily a defenseman skating around everywhere with it.

But if your defenseman is skating around with the puck, doesn't that mean the other team both doesn't have it and still has to put up with constant pressure? And, correct me if i'm wrong here, wouldn't constant pressure lead to a goal more frequently than the Alzner way? (which is dump the puck in the zone, give the other team the puck and opportunities to create pressure, and then trap yourself in your zone.)

 

[Kant Think]

Search the legitimate news channels for coverage of the issue instead of sifting through HFBoard opinion. He was also recovering all year from sports hernia surgery in the summer, and further tweaked his groin as the season went on. He's going to recover from that, even if it's "eventually".

Also from the news instead of HF, you'll learn that he was shut down day-to-day in the playoffs because of concerns about exacerbating an upper body injury, not level of play or unreliability as was obviously suggested by the poster who has very little familiarity with the situation.

I'd provide links, but pretty much every google search result for "alzner injured" provides the necessary insight. And at least one article referred to him as a "1st pairing, shutdown defenseman", incidentally.

And by legitimate, do you mean channels like RDS and TVASpanre?


They're so ignorant that I'm not even sure they watch the very games they produce!

 

[Constable]

Search the legitimate news channels for coverage of the issue instead of sifting through HFBoard opinion. He was also recovering all year from sports hernia surgery in the summer, and further tweaked his groin as the season went on. He's going to recover from that, even if it's "eventually".

Also from the news instead of HF, you'll learn that he was shut down day-to-day in the playoffs because of concerns about exacerbating an upper body injury, not level of play or unreliability as was obviously suggested by the poster who has very little familiarity with the situation.

I'd provide links, but pretty much every google search result for "alzner injured" provides the necessary insight. And at least one article referred to him as a "1st pairing, shutdown defenseman", incidentally.

The ironic thing is I can think of the only true shutdown #1 defenders right now and most of them are on the west coast or Carolina.

 

[LaP]

I love that you're blaming David ****ing Schlemko for the Devils not making the playoffs that year;

Did I?

Nope pretty sure i did not.

and you used +/- in an analysis so you're opinion is very, very, flawed.

Not it's not. The flaw in the +/- stat is the people considering it a defensive stats while it's a differential stats. If you have the 2nd worst +/- of your team then your pairing more than likely did not do a good job (either defensively or offensively or both) in the role it was attributed.

 

[Price is Wright]

And at least one article referred to him as a "1st pairing, shutdown defenseman", incidentally.

Hey that's great. Fits my theory that this is the Habs repeating Toronto's mistake eight years ago signing Mike Komisarek. Remember, the first pairing shutdown D with an injury plagued season?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

And by legitimate, do you mean channels like RDS and TVASpanre?

They're so ignorant that I'm not even sure they watch the very games they produce!

I mean CSN, NBC, etc, etc, etc. Google for yourself.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

But if your defenseman is skating around with the puck, doesn't that mean the other team both doesn't have it and still has to put up with constant pressure?

Not if you're able to consistently make defensemen carry the puck into trouble, or steer them where you want to in the end.

And, correct me if i'm wrong here, wouldn't constant pressure lead to a goal more frequently than the Alzner way? (which is dump the puck in the zone, give the other team the puck and opportunities to create pressure, and then trap yourself in your zone.)

Correct ME if I'm wrong, but if this "constant pressure" was actually effective, it would be borne out in the results of scoring actual goals/points, right? What you find more exciting to watch might not actually be the most effective way to generate goals... that's THE major disconnect with people trying to argue that their favourite flavour of player is better than another.

 

[the]

This thread is going to be open for years and years before we find our Man Mountain a suitable partner.

 

[Constable]

Did I?

Nope pretty sure i did not.



Not it's not. The flaw in the +/- stat is the people considering it a defensive stats while it's a differential stats. If you have the 2nd worst +/- of your team then your pairing more than likely did not do a good job (either defensively or offensively or both) in the role it was attributed.

+/- is a team stat. You'd be hard-pressed to find a regular player on a basement team with a positive +/-, and the inverse is true for players on champion teams.

 

[Constable]

Not if you're able to consistently make defensemen carry the puck into trouble, or steer them where you want to in the end.



Correct ME if I'm wrong, but if this "constant pressure" was actually effective, it would be borne out in the results of scoring actual goals/points, right? What you find more exciting to watch might not actually be the most effective way to generate goals... that's THE major disconnect with people trying to argue that their favourite flavour of player is better than another.

Caveat: Longer pressure has been proven to result in more goals..... because the players who apply the most pressure are the most talented! And, the players who are the most exciting to watch are also, again, generally the better players.

You're essentially arguing that:

-Having the puck for a long time is either bad, or equivalent to short bursts
-Long times in the offensive zone are bad ("constant pressure") or in equivalence to short bursts of offensive zone time
-Having the skill to retain the puck for longer periods of time results in less offense.

All 3 are very, very inaccurate statements.