Mactavish appreciation thread

[DisgruntledGoat*]

how many horrendous runs did he have to? go look at his game logs. that mother-f'er would go dry for MONTHS and then once the team was completely dead and the pressure was off he'd have his lucky burst of points to inflate his stats in the final month. garbage points doesnt = good.

you people actually believe that dude was a good player?

he's one of the most glaring Bogus Boys in Oilers history.
you people just pity him for some dumb reason. he's a baddie.

Arco - don't even care. he's not the answer either.

I'm not saying Gagner is perfect (although I do think he will do well playing in a pro-level system with pro-level linemates for a pro-level coach employed by a pro-level organization. Y'know, NOT this clown car of a franchise), but I do think he's better than what we have now... Nothing.

Regardless, I at least can understand where you are coming from. Its the 'Arco > Gagner' people who have me shaking my head.

 

[Sloth Slothersons*]

As centers, Arco > Gagner.

 

[Replacement*]

Apparently people forget so easily. Did you make up the number "12-14 games"? Here's a reminder from Jonathan Willis.

In 23 games where he played with top six players - Arcobello scored 15 pts and was +3.

http://oilersnation.com/2014/1/11/context-and-mark-arcobello.

Here's another article.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/20...lers-asked-of-him-does-he-have-an-nhl-future/


Key point #1: "When lined up on a line with skill players he scored at a 53-point pace (despite a miserable 2.3 shooting percentage) and had dominant scoring chance numbers. When placed at right wing on a checking line, the Oilers continued to out-chance the opposition. Only when he was placed with Luke Gazdic did Arcobello’s numbers plummet, and even in those situations Gazdic’s numbers were better with Arcobello than they were away from him."

Key point #2: "He played all of 41 games but still managed to finish fourth among Oilers forwards in total hits, averaging nearly two per game (more than team leader David Perron) – and he did it while being a positive possession player. He took 400-odd faceoffs and won more than half of them. He averaged 1:38 per game on the penalty kill. When the need arose, he shifted to right wing."

What does Willis not understand about limited or short sample? With that major statistical flaw invoked any other information I'd take with the utmost questioning.

lmfao at the hits stat. Arco hits? Define hit, lol

 

[Oiltankjob Fail]

Shiny new toy syndrome.

Lol at Arcobello being better than Gagner based on 14 games. How many has Gagner had good runs only to have it brushed off as 'leeching off linemates' or 'still inconsistent'.

You know it took Arcobello last season for me to realize what Gagner really was. Gagner hustle could not hold a candle to Arcobello his hustle for a average skater made Gagner look like he skated in cement. He also seemed to make a lot more happen in that short stint in top 6 , his defensive game was miles ahead. As well as faceoffs, All these comments I made in gdt early in the season. Before that I was a Gagner backer Arco made me see the light. Now I am not saying he is a idea second C but really he looked better at then Gagner by miles.

 

[McVespa99]

he played decent for like 12-14 games then completely disappeared. you need to put your arcoboner away and look at him for what he really was, a temporary player that isnt a true nhl player.

Nice selective information dissemination. You left out the fact that after those 14 or so games he was dumped to the 4th line so Gags could have the 2nd line spot. Arco is not a fourth liner. The only spot on this team he could succeed is 2nd/3d line. With a couple feisty wingers if possible. Maybe Pouliot and Perron as a scoring third line. No chance he wouldnt be better than Gags was.

 

[McVespa99]

LOL at the massive over rating of Marc Arcobello. Last 14 games played with the big team 1 goal, 1 assist.

A nice over achieving player who has exceeded expectations. If we have RNH and him as #2 center be prepared to be run out of the rink as usual by teams with big centers. If we put an 18 year old rookie even with size as our #2 center be prepared for a that line to bleed goals. It will be a massive mistake if the Oilers don't upgrade that position.

As for Yakupov, he's toast. When the gm declares your #1 overall pick from a few years back who is a pure sniper is a 3rd liner he's doomed. Will never get out of the dog house, will never actually score enough to get a return when he gets dealt. If they feel Yakupov is not part of the long range plans they should be feeding him prime minutes early in the year in the hopes of boosting his stock.

Lol at people rating him based on 6 minutes a night playing with stiffs. Yah an upgrade at 2nd line center would be great but we could do worse than Arco as a 3rd line center with Perron and Pouliot or a pair along that line.

 

[SeriousBusiness]

No doubt Arco would have put up more points than Gagner if they had been given equal ice time and the same line mates.

 

[Up the Irons]

If MacT doesn't fill the 2nd line C spot, it's more of the same thing we have been seeing for the past 7-8 years; the team fills up the bottom 6 with overpriced free agents, but leaves (at least) one key roster hole open. If Draisaitl is the team's 2nd line C come training camp, the team will be gunning for a shiny new top 5 pick.

I'm not so sure about that. there have been minor improvements in almost every area.

the d corp is better (on paper, at least)
nolonger have to give sugar time to Gagner. Arco is marginally better
Purcell + Pouliot + Hendricks all year >> Jones + Hemsky + Smyth (or, at least, more useful and needed)
goalending is better
coaching should be better

even without a 2C, they are better than last year. Not playoffs better, but I'm not going to guarantee a top 5 pick either.

 

[Up the Irons]

You know it took Arcobello last season for me to realize what Gagner really was. Gagner hustle could not hold a candle to Arcobello his hustle for a average skater made Gagner look like he skated in cement. He also seemed to make a lot more happen in that short stint in top 6 , his defensive game was miles ahead. As well as faceoffs, All these comments I made in gdt early in the season. Before that I was a Gagner backer Arco made me see the light. Now I am not saying he is a idea second C but really he looked better at then Gagner by miles.

same thing happened to Mact. Gagner is gone, in part, because Arco is better. All you had to do was watch the games for proof of this.

Gagner is a useful winger on the right line, on the right team. that team being not the Oilers.

 

[Spawn]

I know I already basically posted the exact same thing in the rumours thread.

But it blows my mind that anyone can think it's okay the Oilers might go into the year with Mark Arcobello all but guaranteed a top 9 position. That is guaranteed bottom 5 finish type material right there. It's delusional to think otherwise.

For every Marty St. Louis that everyone loves to throw out there is a dozen Alexander Giroux's.

Maybe the Oilers hit the jackpot and Arcobello somehow becomes a top 6 center. But you don't just go into the year banking on it.

Arcobello better than Gagner... give your head a shake. Gagner had a terrible terrible year. But he scored at a 65 point pace just a season before in the lockout year.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Arcobello is not the answer for 2C...they need experience and size down the middle

I like Arco, I think he can play in the NHL...just not in the top 6

MacT will get his props if/when he pushes Draisaitl/Arco/Gordon down the lineup

 

[Bangers]

I'm not so sure about that. there have been minor improvements in almost every area.

the d corp is better (on paper, at least)
nolonger have to give sugar time to Gagner. Arco is marginally better
Purcell + Pouliot + Hendricks all year >> Jones + Hemsky + Smyth (or, at least, more useful and needed)
goalending is better
coaching should be better

even without a 2C, they are better than last year. Not playoffs better, but I'm not going to guarantee a top 5 pick either.

This is assuming the players they've just signed work out (I'm not saying they won't, but I'm not saying they will either).

I still remember thinking that Belanger was the 3rd line C the team needed and that Eager was going to add the toughness required to protect the young talent. I also remember thinking that Kurtis Foster might be a legitimate bottom-pairing defenceman.

The team still needs a 2nd line center. Some of the top ones remaining on the UFA market were signed yesterday, and at this point the only options are David Legwand, Steve Ott or trading for one.

When was the last time this franchise didn't go into the season with a gaping hole and actually attempt to fill it?

 

[OVOXO*]

So we trade Gagner to put a worse Gagner in his spot?

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

So we trade Gagner to put a worse Gagner in his spot?

You mean a guy who is way better at faceoff, actually hits and is defensively sound?

 

[Up the Irons]

This is assuming the players they've just signed work out (I'm not saying they won't, but I'm not saying they will either).

I still remember thinking that Belanger was the 3rd line C the team needed and that Eager was going to add the toughness required to protect the young talent. I also remember thinking that Kurtis Foster might be a legitimate bottom-pairing defenceman.

The team still needs a 2nd line center. Some of the top ones remaining on the UFA market were signed yesterday, and at this point the only options are David Legwand, Steve Ott or trading for one.

When was the last time this franchise didn't go into the season with a gaping hole and actually attempt to fill it?

true.
true.
and I can't remember the last time. they haven't traded anything of value to fill a need or help the current roster in.... over half a decade? the roster players notice this. they know that management has been leaving them high and dry, because that Swedish, 19 year old prospect is just soooooooo valuable and such a guarantee.

is this the year management trades futures for the present?

 

[Up the Irons]

I know I already basically posted the exact same thing in the rumours thread.

But it blows my mind that anyone can think it's okay the Oilers might go into the year with Mark Arcobello all but guaranteed a top 9 position. That is guaranteed bottom 5 finish type material right there. It's delusional to think otherwise.

For every Marty St. Louis that everyone loves to throw out there is a dozen Alexander Giroux's.

Maybe the Oilers hit the jackpot and Arcobello somehow becomes a top 6 center. But you don't just go into the year banking on it.

Arcobello better than Gagner... give your head a shake. Gagner had a terrible terrible year. But he scored at a 65 point pace just a season before in the lockout year.

respectfully disagree. Gagner is better than Arco at creating offense. Arco is better at everything else. And here's a newsflash: everything else is what the Oilers need.

No, Arco is not the answer. but keeping Gagner at 2C wasn't either. He's a winger, and only average, one at that.

 

[CupofOil]

WTF am i reading in this thread?
The underrating of Arco is criminal and anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know anything about hockey? He was one of the best players on the Oilers last season and better than RNH? Hes following a similar career path to St. Louis? Oh my word, delusion seems to be running rampant in this thread.

Arcobello is what he is. An AHL/NHL tweener who is a solid callup option in case of injury. He's way too small and isn't skilled enough and can't skate well enough to overcome his physical shortcomings.

He scored 10 points in his first 10 games mostly with lucky assists, i can recall maybe 2 or 3 of those assists that were a direct result of a great play by him. All those hits that he piled up were love taps for the most part. He tried real hard with the hits but simply isn't big or strong enough to make much of an impact with the hits which is why i think the hit stat is one of the most useless in hockey, it doesn't measure the magnitude of the hits and in Arco's case, they rarely had much impact.

The bottom line is that he's not a full time NHL player. I'm glad that they re-signed because he's a great 13th forward to have but as a full time 2nd line center, NO NO NO ABSOLUTELY NO.

Also, and i'm far from a Gagner fan, Gagner is a better player than Arcobello.
One is a fringe NHLer. The other is a legit NHLer with legit NHL skills despite his weaknesses away from the puck. Over the long haul of a season, i take Gagner over Arcobello and i don't think twice.

 

[Pablo Aimar]

I know I already basically posted the exact same thing in the rumours thread.

But it blows my mind that anyone can think it's okay the Oilers might go into the year with Mark Arcobello all but guaranteed a top 9 position. That is guaranteed bottom 5 finish type material right there. It's delusional to think otherwise.

For every Marty St. Louis that everyone loves to throw out there is a dozen Alexander Giroux's.

Maybe the Oilers hit the jackpot and Arcobello somehow becomes a top 6 center. But you don't just go into the year banking on it.

Arcobello better than Gagner... give your head a shake. Gagner had a terrible terrible year. But he scored at a 65 point pace just a season before in the lockout year.

Gagner can put up points at a decent clip when he is spoon-fed good linemates and pp time. He is also a complete and total ****ing disaster at every other aspect of playing hockey. That's why the Lightening traded him (with salary retained) for a 6th round pick. He sucks. I agree that going into the season with Arcobello guaranteed a top 9 role would be suicide. But I doubt he is an all around worse player than Gagner.

 

[La Bamba]

Lol @ the thought of RNH/Arco against the center duos of the west

 

[OVOXO*]

Lol @ the thought of RNH/Arco against the center duos of the west

But that 5'8 170lb center is SO good defensively, that's why he's a regular in the NHL. Oh wait, he isn't and shouldn't be.

 

[Up the Irons]

people seem to be getting confused, but there are two arguments going here:

1. is Arcobello a better 2C option than Gagner? IMO, yes. Gagner isn't an NHL C unless his wingers are Marleau and Couture. (IOW, unless both his wingers are better hockey players than him).

and,

2. is Arcobello the answer to the Oilers 2C hole? clearly, no.

 

[Aerchon]

Arco as a center is considerably better than Gagner. Anyone who thinks otherwise... well lets just say I don't trust their hockey sense worth a lick.

Replacement has the only somewhat valid argument and that is Arco has only a small sample and still could be a bust.

BUT!

His development, trajectory, AHL scoring, skills... everything points to this guy being a valid top 6 center. Could he bust? Sure. Does it look like he will bust. Hell no. Only the slow of mind could possibly look at what Arco has done to date and think it is likely that Arco will bust. Cliché comments about his size and he ain't no St Loius are tired. Actually pretty funny cause a lot of anti Arco are Gagner supporters, who always said Gagner's lack of size wasn't a big deal. Arco plays considerably bigger than Gagner and that is as obvious as the sun.

At the very very very very very very least you play him on his one way deal to start the season. Showed way too much to just write him off and not give him a legitimate chance. Signing another #2 center does not give Arco a legitimate chance. Signing a 3rd line center helps with depth but also pushes both Lander and Leon out of the picture as well. Its not the greatest but its what we got and it's not foolish of Mac T to go this route. Got to save money some way and we got to get our prospects into our line as well. Those scouts need to contribute to the line up beyond the first round.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

WTF am i reading in this thread?
The underrating of Arco is criminal and anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know anything about hockey? He was one of the best players on the Oilers last season and better than RNH? Hes following a similar career path to St. Louis? Oh my word, delusion seems to be running rampant in this thread.

Arcobello is what he is. An AHL/NHL tweener who is a solid callup option in case of injury. He's way too small and isn't skilled enough and can't skate well enough to overcome his physical shortcomings.

He scored 10 points in his first 10 games mostly with lucky assists, i can recall maybe 2 or 3 of those assists that were a direct result of a great play by him. All those hits that he piled up were love taps for the most part. He tried real hard with the hits but simply isn't big or strong enough to make much of an impact with the hits which is why i think the hit stat is one of the most useless in hockey, it doesn't measure the magnitude of the hits and in Arco's case, they rarely had much impact.

The bottom line is that he's not a full time NHL player. I'm glad that they re-signed because he's a great 13th forward to have but as a full time 2nd line center, NO NO NO ABSOLUTELY NO.

Also, and i'm far from a Gagner fan, Gagner is a better player than Arcobello.
One is a fringe NHLer. The other is a legit NHLer with legit NHL skills despite his weaknesses away from the puck. Over the long haul of a season, i take Gagner over Arcobello and i don't think twice.

I like Arco as much as the next guy but it would be flat out suicide to go into next season with a raw rookie and a 26 year old AHL star as our 2/3 centers.

What we have now:

RNH
Draisaitl
Arco
Gordon
Lander
Yakimov
Acton
Khaira

What we SHOULD have to be competetive

RNH
XXX
Arco
Gordon
Another decent C acquisition
Lander
Yakimov
Etc.
Drai to Jr

For the love of everything, don't fling Draisaitl into next year's lineup. I'm fine with pencilling Arco into a 3rd scoring line role with Pouliot and Purcell - I think that could actually be quite successful.

 

[sportsdynasty]

From what I saw Arco was our best centre last year. Better than Nuge. Because he wasn't picked first overall in a draft, he was demoted to 4th line and the AHL. I'm fine with Arco in the top 6, he earned it. For anyone to think that MacT is going to upgrade, you are delusional. Who exactly do you think MacT can pickup?

 

[Replacement*]

"Anybody who thinks otherwise" is not an argument and despite how often its used, and in this thread, no matter what side is saying it it sets the tone for denoting a singular viewpoint that is of unshakeable faith.

People know my own view, also that we haven't seen Arco much at all at this level (and being honest I don't want to) but one CAN'T make conclusions that a career AHLer is suddenly an NHLer on the very limited sample of NHL games he's played.

I would surprised how much the advanced stats theorists have gone to town on this except knowing that they rarely subscribe to rigorous statistical methodology that would pass scientific enquiry and analysis. Simply put they've jumped the gun and with attempts to make conclusions when none are possible with such limited data.

People can hope that Arco is special, that he's a slow developer, that he's ready but we really don't have that established yet. The amount of stats used to prop up such a short sample is really just trying to add numbers to something to make it look like theres some substantiation. There clearly isn't enough NHL data. There isn't longitudinal data, there isn't contiguous data. There isn't corroborating data. Frankly NOBODY here, or with the Oilers, or Willis knows how Arco would cope with a regular diet of #2 line. Or #2 PP. Its as simple as that statistically. Its an unknown.

3Rd? Well that's why we have Gordon. (among other roles he offers)