MacKinnon and Rantanen or Matthews and Marner?

[67 others]

By your definition (which is completely arbitrary), the Leafs duo would still have more room to grow. When I say the Leafs duo is better, I am including all context. Unlike you, I do not exclude context.

1. That is incorrect. Even the most elite players are impacted by their opponents in the playoffs, and factors like PP time.
2. "Clutch" is usually applied retroactively, to incorrectly explain small sample occurrences that are almost always more accurately explained by other pretty obvious factors. Mackinnon and Rantanen are not "more clutch" than Matthews and Marner, whatever you think that means.

Nah, that's just your definition of the word.

Marner thus far has been disappointing in the playoffs thus far, but he is young and can change that. Rantanen has 39 points in 33 playoff games, Marner 21 points in 25 playoff games. Whatever regular season edge you think Marner has, it is small. While the playoff gap between them is quite large SO FAR.

Since there is a 41 page discussion on the leaf board about Marner's struggles in the playoffs, obviously a lot of leaf fans agree with me and disagree with you.
Marner's Playoffs Struggles

 

[Holymakinaw]

2016/17
Matthews 40g 29a 69 pts MacKinnon 16g 37a 53pts

2017/18
Matthews 34g 29a 63pts MacKinnon 39g 58a 97pts

2018/19
Matthews 37g 36a 73pts MacKinnon 41g 58a 99pts

2019/20
Matthews 47g 33a 80pts MacKinnon 35g 58a 93pts

2020/21 (so far)
Matthews 21g 15a 36 pts MacKinnon 9g 22a 31pts

weird how you only 2 one of the sets of players. And the gaps that MacKinnon has been beating Matthews by is drastically larger than the gaps you showed of Marner over Rantanen. And all this is ignoring contracts.

LOL. Well since it's pretty dumb to compare one player's 1st through 5th seasons with another player's 4th through 8th seasons.......I'll show it FAIRLY, and compare each of their first 5 seasons in the league.

Hey, Matthews wins in a landslide. Neat!

Matthews
2016/17 40g 29a 69p
2017/18 34g 29a 63p
2018/19 37g 36a 73p
2019/20 47g 33a 80p
2020/21 21g 15a 36p (so far)

McKinnon
2013/14 24g 39a 63p
2014/15 14g 24a 38p
2015/16 21g 31a 52p
2016/17 16g 37a 53p
2017/18 39g 58a 97p

 

[Dekes For Days]

Whatever regular season edge you think Marner has, it is small. While the playoff gap between them is quite large SO FAR.

Quite the opposite. The gap that exists between them in the regular season is much bigger than any gap you think exists in the playoffs.

Since there is a 41 page discussion on the leaf board about Marner's struggles in the playoffs, obviously a lot of leaf fans agree with me and disagree with you.

There's more than just Leaf fans on the Leaf board, and we have threads about literally everything.

 

[Dache]

LOL. Well since it's pretty dumb to compare one player's 1st through 5th seasons with another player's 4th through 8th seasons.......I'll show it FAIRLY, and compare each of their first 5 seasons in the league.

Hey, Matthews wins in a landslide. Neat!

Matthews
2016/17 40g 29a 69p
2017/18 34g 29a 63p
2018/19 37g 36a 73p
2019/20 47g 33a 80p
2020/21 21g 15a 36p (so far)

McKinnon
2013/14 24g 39a 63p
2014/15 14g 24a 38p
2015/16 21g 31a 52p
2016/17 16g 37a 53p
2017/18 39g 58a 97p

Why would you used different seasons to compare players when choosing who you want now, this isn’t a comparison of who you think will have the best 6th season. What’s dumb is using completely different methods of comparing players in the same poll all to have a certain desired result, while somehow thinking that your clear bias won’t be obvious to absolutely everyone

 

[TruePowerSlave]

The Leafs duo has to show a lot more during the playoffs to make this a debate

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Quite the opposite. The gap that exists between them in the regular season is much bigger than any gap you think exists in the playoffs.

There's more than just Leaf fans on the Leaf board, and we have threads about literally everything.

Marner has had historically bad luck PDO wise in the playoffs. I think he has potential to win the Conn Smythe. Marner and Matthews would be equal favourites odds wise.

 

[67 others]

Quite the opposite. The gap that exists between them in the regular season is much bigger than any gap you think exists in the playoffs.

There's more than just Leaf fans on the Leaf board, and we have threads about literally everything.

nah, its definitely leaf fans making these comments

Matthews scored 5 goals in 7 games lets not try to brush that aside. Meanwhile Marner no points in last how many ever games, no goals since who knows.

Agreed Marner was shut down by Boston's top dmen but now against CBJ it seems like even second tier players shut him down.

Hope he steps it up. I think he will.

Boston had carlo and krug against matthews line, not marner's. The best D pair for them to shut down matthews

Marner has proven so far he fails in the playoffs. Up to him to change that.
Matthews is the only who has proven he can perform in the playoffs.

It's unfortunate, but Marner is more of a Gaudreau than a Kane. Still a great regular season player, but not someone I want to be one of my team's best players when the games matter, and not someone I want making over 10.5 million a year

 

[flyfysher]

They are all great players. But I’ll take MacKinnon and Rantanen’s contracts over Matthews and Marner’s every single time. It’s a team sport and I believe it’s infinitely harder to build a balanced team when you are handicapped with a contract like Marner’s, especially in a flat cap period.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Toronto duo is younger (even though they're more expensive), but I'll take the guys who have an extra year or two on them to become better.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Why would you used different seasons to compare players when choosing who you want now, this isn’t a comparison of who you think will have the best 6th season. What’s dumb is using completely different methods of comparing players in the same poll all to have a certain desired result, while somehow thinking that your clear bias won’t be obvious to absolutely everyone

LOL. Matthews has only been in the league for 5 years. He's 23 years old. Where do you think he's going next? Here's a hint........it's where McKinnon was in year 5, 6, 7, 8. Take off your obvious ANTI Leaf bias, and see that Matthews has put up better numbers as a kid, has scored more goals by far, delivers more hits, has more takeaways, more blocked shots, and wins more faceoffs than McKinnon, who is further into his career than Matthews.

I realize I won't change your mind, which is very skewed on this topic, but it's obvious. Matthews was the better player as soon as they both got into the league, McKinnon ruled for a few seasons, and Matthews is NOW the better player going forward.

Have a good day, Guy.

 

[Dache]

LOL. Matthews has only been in the league for 5 years. He's 23 years old. Where do you think he's going next? Here's a hint........it's where McKinnon was in year 5, 6, 7, 8. Take off your obvious ANTI Leaf bias, and see that Matthews has put up better numbers as a kid, has scored more goals by far, delivers more hits, has more takeaways, more blocked shots, and wins more faceoffs than McKinnon, who is further into his career than Matthews. I realize I won't change your mind, which is very skewed on this topic, but it's obvious. Matthews was the better player as soon as they both got into the league, and is NOW the better player.

Have a good day, Guy.

Why do you always start your posts with LOL, or call people dumb? You’re clearly not trying to have any sort of productive conversation. And here we go again with anti leaf bias. Maybe you’ll be the first one to finally show me a post where I actually bash anything about the leafs. Or how about we go and see how many non leaf players you’ve voted for in a poll vs how many leaf players I’ve voted for. Or even just how many times you’ve made posts bashing non leaf players. There’s a select group of you leaf homers that for some reason don’t think anyone else notices and you try to pass of anyone pointing it out as them being the bias ones. If that’s the case then prove it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

nah, its definitely leaf fans making these comments

Except it's not. You're using an appeal to authority fallacy, and not even using an authority.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Why do you always start your posts with LOL, or call people dumb? You’re clearly not trying to have any sort of productive conversation. And here we go again with anti leaf bias. Maybe you’ll be the first one to finally show me a post where I actually bash anything about the leafs. Or how about we go and see how many non leaf players you’ve voted for in a poll vs how many leaf players I’ve voted for. Or even just how many times you’ve made posts bashing non leaf players. There’s a select group of you leaf homers that for some reason don’t think anyone else notices and you try to pass of anyone pointing it out as them being the bias ones. If that’s the case then prove it.

I "LOL'd" at your previous post because it was ridiculous. And I never called anyone dumb. I said that I would not be dumb by comparing seasons 1-5 to seasons 4-8. And I'm right.

And yes, some of us Leaf fans lash out at the zillions of posters in here that pile on the Leafs/Leaf fans. Since it's so obvious, there's not much point in trying anything else, as y'all are hardly EVER fair in your comments.

But I made my points about Matthews vs. McKinnon, and backed them up with some facts. Same with Marner. Have a nice day.

 

[67 others]

Except it's not. You're using an appeal to authority fallacy, and not even using an authority.

Nah I'm going by the names of folks I quoted. Definitely leaf fans lol

 

[Mac Attack]

LOL. Marner has outproduced Rantanen in 4 of the 5 reg. seasons they've played(I won't count Rantanen's 9 game 2015 season). Everyone uses reg. season stats to compare, except for you apparently.

2016/17
Marner 19g 42a 61p Rantanen 20g 18a 38p

2017/18
Marner 22g 47a 69p Rantanen 29g 55a 84p

2018/19
Marner 26g 68a 94p Rantanen 31g 56a 87p

2019/20
Marner 16g 51a 67p Rantanen 19g 22a 41p

2020/21(so far)
Marner 12g 28a 40p Rantanen 17g 18a 35p

Everyone only uses the time when less important hockey is played to compare who is the better player? What a joke.

 

[Spilot23]

I "LOL'd" at your previous post because it was ridiculous. And I never called anyone dumb. I said that I would not be dumb by comparing seasons 1-5 to seasons 4-8. And I'm right.

And yes, some of us Leaf fans lash out at the zillions of posters in here that pile on the Leafs/Leaf fans. Since it's so obvious, there's not much point in trying anything else, as y'all are hardly EVER fair in your comments.

But I made my points about Matthews vs. McKinnon, and backed them up with some facts. Same with Marner. Have a nice day.

You backed them up with facts that are around 5 years ago. You don't know what will happen in the future none of us do. If we're using your stats to draw a prediction then yes that might be a good thing but the fact is we don't know what will happen in the next couple years. Could Mackinnon be even better ? Will he slow down ? Will Matthews keep improving ? Will Matthews regress ? If you're some future teller then yes I would call them facts.

Only in Leafland you can call someone better after couple games just like his first NHL game with 4 goals how he was already better than Mcdavid. Mackinnon had a Hart worthy season with 97 pts people said he needed to do that again. Next year he put up 99 pts in 82 games people said he's a product of Rantanen because he was bad before he came in. Next year he put up 93 pts in 69 games while the 2nd best scorer was rookie Makar with 50 pts people are now calling Mack game 7 choker. They always find a bug on him no matter how good he does. Makes me wonder what's next.

 

[HotPie]

LOL. Matthews has only been in the league for 5 years. He's 23 years old. Where do you think he's going next? Here's a hint........it's where McKinnon was in year 5, 6, 7, 8. Take off your obvious ANTI Leaf bias, and see that Matthews has put up better numbers as a kid, has scored more goals by far, delivers more hits, has more takeaways, more blocked shots, and wins more faceoffs than McKinnon, who is further into his career than Matthews.

I realize I won't change your mind, which is very skewed on this topic, but it's obvious. Matthews was the better player as soon as they both got into the league, MacKinnon ruled for a few seasons, and Matthews is NOW the better player going forward.

Have a good day, Guy.

Matthews had a better rookie season, he's certainly one of the better players in the league, and you can make the argument that he's ahead developmentally over MacKinnon. It might very well be that Matthews ends up the better player.

It's just not right now. When he puts close to 100 point seasons back to back to back, and is a beast in the playoffs, then we can start having an actual argument. Right now Matthews is above PPG in the regular season, and sub PPG in the playoffs. That can change in the future, but it doesn't look good right now for Matthews.

And they're only 2 years apart.

 

[Holymakinaw]

You backed them up with facts that are around 5 years ago. You don't know what will happen in the future none of us do. If we're using your stats to draw a prediction then yes that might be a good thing but the fact is we don't know what will happen in the next couple years. Could Mackinnon be even better ? Will he slow down ? Will Matthews keep improving ? Will Matthews regress ? If you're some future teller then yes I would call them facts.

Only in Leafland you can call someone better after couple games just like his first NHL game with 4 goals how he was already better than Mcdavid. Mackinnon had a Hart worthy season with 97 pts people said he needed to do that again. Next year he put up 99 pts in 82 games people said he's a product of Rantanen because he was bad before he came in. Next year he put up 93 pts in 69 games while the 2nd best scorer was rookie Makar with 50 pts people are now calling Mack game 7 choker. They always find a bug on him no matter how good he does. Makes me wonder what's next.

? Besides Matthews owning McKinnon's numbers the 1st four years of his career, I showed that THIS season, Matthews has more goals, more points, more faceoffs won, more takeaways, more blocked shots, more hits, and he's still just 23 years old. I guess you missed that? Or do you seriously just ignore all of that?

 

[Holymakinaw]

Matthews had a better rookie season, he's certainly one of the better players in the league, and you can make the argument that he's ahead developmentally over MacKinnon. It might very well be that Matthews ends up the better player.

It's just not right now. When he puts close to 100 point seasons back to back to back, and is a beast in the playoffs, then we can start having an actual argument. Right now Matthews is above PPG in the regular season, and sub PPG in the playoffs. That can change in the future, but it doesn't look good right now for Matthews.

And they're only 2 years apart.

Yes, right now. Matthews is destroying McKinnon is MANY key stats, across the board.

- goals
- points
- Takaways
- Blocked shots
- Hits
- Faceoffs won

Matthews is actually "better" than McKinnon...........right now.

 

[North Cole]

LOL. Well since it's pretty dumb to compare one player's 1st through 5th seasons with another player's 4th through 8th seasons.......I'll show it FAIRLY, and compare each of their first 5 seasons in the league.

Hey, Matthews wins in a landslide. Neat!

Matthews
2016/17 40g 29a 69p
2017/18 34g 29a 63p
2018/19 37g 36a 73p
2019/20 47g 33a 80p
2020/21 21g 15a 36p (so far)

McKinnon
2013/14 24g 39a 63p
2014/15 14g 24a 38p
2015/16 21g 31a 52p
2016/17 16g 37a 53p
2017/18 39g 58a 97p

 

[HotPie]

Yes, right now. Matthews is destroying McKinnon is MANY key stats, across the board.

- goals
- points
- Takaways
- Blocked shots
- Hits
- Faceoffs won

Matthews is actually "better" than McKinnon...........right now.

Let's wait a little bit before using current stats to justify the "right now" argument for Matthews. Matthews has been slowing down, and MacKinnon has been picking up speed. Right now, we still need to look at the past few seasons to give us a better idea as to who is a better player, and MacKinnon has a clear edge there. Until Matthews demonstrates that he can outproduce MacKinnon on a consistent basis, you can't make the case yet.

It very well could be that Matthews ends up being the better player in the future. It's just not clear right now, and MacKinnon has the edge, until Matthews consistently shows otherwise.

Remember, the main board was filled with the Leafs being the "best team in the league"...until suddenly they weren't. A lot can change in one season, which is why we still need to examine past seasons to get a better idea.

 

[Spilot23]

? Besides Matthews owning McKinnon's numbers the 1st four years of his career, I showed that THIS season, Matthews has more goals, more points, more faceoffs won, more takeaways, more blocked shots, and he's still just 23 years old. I guess you missed that? Or do you seriously just ignore all of that?

He will probably always have more goals than Mack I'll give you that as Matthews is one of the best goalscorer. Mackinnon all around game has been better same as you said I'm also not a stat nerd so if someone can find advanced stats I would like to see the comparison. As I said only in Leafland you're considered a better player than someone after couple games while Mack has been doing destroying Matthews for three straight years Even then there's still alot of hockey left for Mack to catch up and he's already very close after having a slow start.

 

[flyfysher]

He will probably always have more goals than Mack I'll give you that as Matthews is one of the best goalscorer. Mackinnon all around game has been better same as you said I'm also not a stat nerd so if someone can find advanced stats I would like to see the comparison. As I said only in Leafland you're considered a better player than someone after couple games while Mack has been doing destroying Matthews for three straight years Even then there's still alot of hockey left for Mack to catch up and he's already very close after having a slow start.

Admittedly I don’t see a lot of AM but he’s a great scorer nonetheless. However, I know one thing. When you have a #1 D man in Pietrangelo saying the TV version of ‘oh shit’ while mic’d up on live TV as he saw MacKinnon flying down the R wing closing in on him - that’s pretty meaningful. It tells you what MacKinnon’s peers feel when he has the puck coming at them. Fear! He’s dominant.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

LOL. Matthews has only been in the league for 5 years. He's 23 years old. Where do you think he's going next? Here's a hint........it's where McKinnon was in year 5, 6, 7, 8. Take off your obvious ANTI Leaf bias, and see that Matthews has put up better numbers as a kid, has scored more goals by far, delivers more hits, has more takeaways, more blocked shots, and wins more faceoffs than McKinnon, who is further into his career than Matthews.

I realize I won't change your mind, which is very skewed on this topic, but it's obvious. Matthews was the better player as soon as they both got into the league, McKinnon ruled for a few seasons, and Matthews is NOW the better player going forward.

Have a good day, Guy.

Are people watching the games this year?

Matthews hasn't just taken a step. He's taken a giant leap. He's arguably the best forward in the league this year. Some may say McDavid but if you look at their underlying real world statistics and not things like power play points Matthews is ahead.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes, right now. Matthews is destroying McKinnon is MANY key stats, across the board.

- goals
- points
- Takaways
- Blocked shots
- Hits
- Faceoffs won

Matthews is actually "better" than McKinnon...........right now.

"Destroying" in points. Yes 36 points in 29 games (1.24 PPG) is destroying 31 points in 25 games (1.24 PPG).

Also laughing at blocked shots and hits being "key stats".