Value of: Lupul to Vancouver

[Mr Hockey*]

What is Sbisa, 2nd or 3rd pairing guy?

 

[Mikos87]

Huh. Wouldn't mind that, but have no idea why the Leafs would do it.

Maybe they don't want Lupul moving forward and decide to add some cap dollars.

Leivo may very well be a much better player than Rychel.

 

[Gaunce4gm]

What is Sbisa, 2nd or 3rd pairing guy?

Ideally 3rd. He's physical and can skate, but has problems mentally keeping up. He's also useful on the PK. He's the kind of player that can move up to your 2nd pairing for a 2-3 game stretch if the coach tells him to just play simple and make the easy play.


No offense to leafs fans (you guys are aware I'm sure) but your D isn't THAT deep. Reilly, Gardner, Zaitsev all are above Sbisa. Hed probably be battling for your 4D spot.


He'd be a good 3rd pairing for you guys if he gets over taken on the 2nd pair.

And he'd help your PK and be a physical presence

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Same guy said it isn't just Vancouver interested:





I will say that if we are taking back someone like Sbisa, you aren't getting much on top of Lupul in terms of prospect/player value. Getting rid of Lupul is probably not even on the priority list, especially if any sort of pick is involved.

I doubt he'd go any further than giving up some more prospects who can't break through like he did with the Grabner deal last year. Otherwise he'd probably just keep Lupul and stick him on the LTIR for the remainder of his contract. Lupul is not going to be 100% again after last year.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Same guy said it isn't just Vancouver interested:





I will say that if we are taking back someone like Sbisa, you aren't getting much on top of Lupul in terms of prospect/player value. Getting rid of Lupul is probably not even on the priority list, especially if any sort of pick is involved.

I doubt he'd go any further than giving up some more prospects who can't break through like he did with the Grabner deal last year. Otherwise he'd probably just keep Lupul and stick him on the LTIR for the remainder of his contract. Lupul is not going to be 100% again after last year.

But if they do that, and Nylander, Matthews,m narner all(or some) hit their bonus's, the cap will carry forward to next season.

 

[Halla]

Ideally 3rd. He's physical and can skate, but has problems mentally keeping up. He's also useful on the PK. He's the kind of player that can move up to your 2nd pairing for a 2-3 game stretch if the coach tells him to just play simple and make the easy play.


No offense to leafs fans (you guys are aware I'm sure) but your D isn't THAT deep. Reilly, Gardner, Zaitsev all are above Sbisa. Hed probably be battling for your 4D spot.


He'd be a good 3rd pairing for you guys if he gets over taken on the 2nd pair.

And he'd help your PK and be a physical presence

So you think he is better than Marincin,Polak,Hunwick etc?

Sbisa would be our #7 dman at best. he is not good enough to break into one of our LHD slots of Rielly,Gardiner,Marincin

 

[Halla]

But if they do that, and Nylander, Matthews,m narner all(or some) hit their bonus's, the cap will carry forward to next season.

oh no!

If only we had about 25 million in cap space with Zaitsev the only notable name to sign.....

 

[VanJack]

Of course the Leafs are trying to trade Lupul....a broken-down, 32 year old winger with a bloated contract....but finding a team with a comparable need for a 'cap-dump' will be tough....Leafs-Canucks have no trading history, and just can't any kind of fit here.... Canucks need to integrate younger forwards into the lineup and with no cap space anyway....but you never know....I see Lupul is former Medicine Hat Tiger, along with Willie D. and Trevor Linden.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

So you think he is better than Marincin,Polak,Hunwick etc?

Sbisa would be our #7 dman at best. he is not good enough to break into one of our LHD slots of Rielly,Gardiner,Marincin

Technically the LHD slots are Rielly, Gardiner and Hunwick, since Marincin will likely take the 1RD spot beside Rielly again next year.

 

[huntison]

Sbisa and Dorsett for Lupul!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

But if they do that, and Nylander, Matthews,m narner all(or some) hit their bonus's, the cap will carry forward to next season.

Not a big deal. We have a lot of cap coming off, and we will be struggling to reach the cap floor since Zaitsev is the only one who will likely be asking for any sort of serious money. That doesn't even include whether or not we trade JVR or Bozak, which is likely if we are looking at picking up a top pairing RHD next year and some more futures (in the case of Bozak).

And next year, if we really need to, we can just buy out Lupul with 1.25 on the cap for the next two years. No big deal.

Doing any sort of Lupul deal would save us some dead money and maybe open up a contract spot or two. It's worth a little bit, but not enough to give up anything we don't want to give up; so essentially some mid-tier prospects or maybe someone like Holland, Corrado, Hunwick, etc. if it's worth it.

 

[KGL]

But if they do that, and Nylander, Matthews,m narner all(or some) hit their bonus's, the cap will carry forward to next season.

As others have said with Laich ($4.5M), Michalek ($4M), Greening ($2.65M), Robidas ($3M), and Cowen ($3.1M) coming off the books at the end of this season, an overage shouldn't be a problem for next year. $17.25M coming off the books with none of them (likely) being re-signed.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Not a big deal. We have a lot of cap coming off, and we will be struggling to reach the cap floor since Zaitsev is the only one who will likely be asking for any sort of serious money. That doesn't even include whether or not we trade JVR or Bozak, which is likely if we are looking at picking up a top pairing RHD next year and some more futures (in the case of Bozak).

And next year, if we really need to, we can just buy out Lupul with 1.25 on the cap for the next two years. No big deal.

Doing any sort of Lupul deal would save us some dead money and maybe open up a contract spot or two. It's worth a little bit, but not enough to give up anything we don't want to give up; so essentially some mid-tier prospects or maybe someone like Holland, Corrado, Hunwick, etc. if it's worth it.

Bozak couldn't get you a top 4 RHD alone, let alone other assets coming back. JVR is your only trade chip with value that you guys would really be willing to trade. All your other assets of value are needed for the future. I highly doubt this deal could happen, but outside reily, gardiner, zaitsev, all your others are not that good. Sbisa definitelly isn't a great defender, but he would definitely be top 6 in your defense.

 

[Halla]

Technically the LHD slots are Rielly, Gardiner and Hunwick, since Marincin will likely take the 1RD spot beside Rielly again next year.

unlikely. Zaitsev,Polak,Carrick and Corrado all shoot right.
Marincin playing the right side means two of these guys sit.

Rielly-Zaitsev
Gardiner-Polak
Marincin-Carrick

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

As others have said with Laich ($4.5M), Michalek ($4M), Greening ($2.65M), Robidas ($3M), and Cowen ($3.1M) coming off the books at the end of this season, an overage shouldn't be a problem for next year. $17.25M coming off the books with none of them (likely) being re-signed.

But needing to be replaced, and with the amount of ELC's that will be on your team, likely from UFA market which eats that cap pretty quickly. Esp with a team that is primed to start getting better. If you don't then you're just Oilers v2.0

 

[Halla]

Bozak couldn't get you a top 4 RHD alone, let alone other assets coming back. JVR is your only trade chip with value that you guys would really be willing to trade. All your other assets of value are needed for the future. I highly doubt this deal could happen, but outside reily, gardiner, zaitsev, all your others are not that good. Sbisa definitelly isn't a great defender, but he would definitely be top 6 in your defense.

competing with Hunwick,Polak,Marincin,Corrado,Carrick for ice time...
leafs have no interest in sbisa unless they give up lupul and a mid pick or something. vancouver will not get rychel, a 2nd or whatever else was rumored for the leafs to save 1.6M

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Well you are +600k over cap until you can send player on LTIR. That could factor in. As far as I know you need to be under cap before season starts, and season needs to start before players can be put on LTIR. Anyone shed some light on this?

I'm assuming you got that 600K figure from capfriendly.com which doesn't tell the whole story.

-That # is based on a 25 man roster when teams can only carry a max roster of 23
-Cowen situation needs to still get figured out
-For this season there's nowhere they have to spend the money (outside of possibly Kris Russell)
-Very very few notable deals will happen till the trade deadline by which point cap space will have opened up
-I still think there's a very good chance Peter Holland (1.3 cap hit) gets moved to a team that suffers a training camp injury

People are worried about overages next year but Leafs got a lot of money coming off the books in bad deals, no noteworthy contracts to ink and free agency next year is already shaping up to be terrible.

 

[Halla]

But needing to be replaced, and with the amount of ELC's that will be on your team, likely from UFA market which eats that cap pretty quickly. Esp with a team that is primed to start getting better. If you don't then you're just Oilers v2.0

just stop. trying to argue that 20-25M in space will get eaten up by 4-5 ELC guys is just plain silly. leafs may hit UFA for a 2-3M guy or 2, but they will still have ample space. worst case scenario is they buy out lupul if they plan to target a big fish in UFA. they will not be giving up assets to move him

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

just stop. trying to argue that 20-25M in space will get eaten up by 4-5 ELC guys is just plain silly. leafs may hit UFA for a 2-3M guy or 2, but they will still have ample space. worst case scenario is they buy out lupul if they plan to target a big fish in UFA. they will not be giving up assets to move him

So rather than trying to insulate their young stars with quality UFA's, they will get random players that will get a 5th at TDL instead. And based off of what some other fans say, trade Bozak and JVR and further descend into Oilers rebuild territory?

After Nylander and Matthews(maybe marner as well) show they can compete in the NHL, the time will be now to get quality UFA's and make smart trades to give them what they need to succeed. They don't have it right now, and they don't have any assets besides futures to trade for it. UFA is their only choice. They will also have to pay quality UFA's a little more to sign with a team that is still bottom dwelling, but looking to show they they have improved. You have your future defenseman in Reilly, kid has lots of potential, and a solid future in 1c/2c with Nylander/Matthews. Look at Chicago, once they had Toews and Kane they started dipping into UFA to win a cup(alreayd had seabrook and keith). Kings did it with Kopitar, Doughty, etc. You are not at their level, but you are close to the level they were at when they bought the expensive UFA's, and started trading futures to compete. How many top 3 picks does a team need before they think they are ready?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

What is Sbisa, 2nd or 3rd pairing guy?

Ideally 5th or 6th.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

But needing to be replaced, and with the amount of ELC's that will be on your team, likely from UFA market which eats that cap pretty quickly. Esp with a team that is primed to start getting better. If you don't then you're just Oilers v2.0

I hate when everyone uses the Oilers v2.0 statement when it doesn't compare to the Leafs current situation. Oilers did almost everything wrong in the last decade.

At forward they'll still have in their prime vets in Kadri, JVR, Bozak, Martin, Komarov so it isn't all rookies.

As for replacing guys it really won't be hard at all.

-Cowen + Robidas don't even play
-Greening cleared waivers and played in the AHL till joining the Leafs for a reason. He looked decent in his Leafs stint but I'd argue most of that was to do with playing with William Nylander
-Laich is a 4th liner
-Michalek is the only real decent piece but his health is such a question mark

Leafs have very good prospect depth and will be promoting guys who've done their time in the AHL. And having a lot of depth for good candidates in Rychel, Kapanen, Leivo, Hyman, Soshnikov, Leipsic, Johnson, Brown. That's a lot of quality candidates to step up to fill those roles and if not they can simply bring in a cheap vet on a 1 year deal as a free agent including simply bringing back any of Greening, Laich or Michalek at absolutely no more than 2 million.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Canucks are too close to the cap without the deal being an incentive or for Sbisa Dorsett to offset salaries. Our need for a Top6 LW isn't going to be offset by acquiring Lupul, he might play 40 games at best for us over his whole contract remaining, while still costing 5.25m against the cap just by himself.
Leafs would rather just hang on to him see if he can remain healthy for any portion of his contract and contribute to a system he already knows.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

So rather than trying to insulate their young stars with quality UFA's, they will get random players that will get a 5th at TDL instead. And based off of what some other fans say, trade Bozak and JVR and further descend into Oilers rebuild territory?

After Nylander and Matthews(maybe marner as well) show they can compete in the NHL, the time will be now to get quality UFA's and make smart trades to give them what they need to succeed. They don't have it right now, and they don't have any assets besides futures to trade for it. UFA is their only choice. They will also have to pay quality UFA's a little more to sign with a team that is still bottom dwelling, but looking to show they they have improved. You have your future defenseman in Reilly, kid has lots of potential, and a solid future in 1c/2c with Nylander/Matthews. Look at Chicago, once they had Toews and Kane they started dipping into UFA to win a cup(alreayd had seabrook and keith). Kings did it with Kopitar, Doughty, etc. You are not at their level, but you are close to the level they were at when they bought the expensive UFA's, and started trading futures to compete. How many top 3 picks does a team need before they think they are ready?

They have a lot of futures depth though. Even without moving Lupul they'll have lots of cap space to play with. Also not all bonuses will be reached.

Players with high salaries rarely go for the king's ransom people think they will. Especially with NTC's. It's usually 2 or 3 decent pieces.

Why give up an asset to move Lupul now?

If needed why not give up less to move him next summer when the real dollars on his deal drops? Or worse case just buy Lupul out.

Bozak could also be easily moved next summer to open up cap space.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

I hate when everyone uses the Oilers v2.0 statement when it doesn't compare to the Leafs current situation. Oilers did almost everything wrong in the last decade.

At forward they'll still have in their prime vets in Kadri, JVR, Bozak, Martin, Komarov so it isn't all rookies.

As for replacing guys it really won't be hard at all.

-Cowen + Robidas don't even play
-Greening cleared waivers and played in the AHL till joining the Leafs for a reason. He looked decent in his Leafs stint but I'd argue most of that was to do with playing with William Nylander
-Laich is a 4th liner
-Michalek is the only real decent piece but his health is such a question mark

Leafs have very good prospect depth and will be promoting guys who've done their time in the AHL. And having a lot of depth for good candidates in Rychel, Kapanen, Leivo, Hyman, Soshnikov, Leipsic, Johnson, Brown. That's a lot of quality candidates to step up to fill those roles and if not they can simply bring in a cheap vet on a 1 year deal as a free agent including simply bringing back any of Greening, Laich or Michalek at absolutely no more than 2 million.

Half the leafs fans seem to want to trade them for futures. 5/12 spots beings vets isn't something to brag about, even the Oilers had SOME vets to make cap floor, and not all of them were trash. Toronto has a good future, but after next season is the time to start thinking of improving via UFA market. Matthews will be expensive in 3 years, Nylander in 2. The could get bridge deals, but they would likely be worth trying to sign long term, as a bridge could easily backfire ala Subban. UFA's often get more expensive every year. Getting one or 2 next off season and then 1 the offseason after could easily save the leafs 1-2mil in caps space when Matthews needs a contract.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

They have a lot of futures depth though. Even without moving Lupul they'll have lots of cap space to play with. Also not all bonuses will be reached.

Players with high salaries rarely go for the king's ransom people think they will. Especially with NTC's. It's usually 2 or 3 decent pieces.

Why give up an asset to move Lupul now?

If needed why not give up less to move him next summer when the real dollars on his deal drops? Or worse case just buy Lupul out.

Bozak could also be easily moved next summer to open up cap space.

If toronto is thinking they want to add some solid UFA's after this off season, the extra cap from not having carry over from Bonus's could help. Even if just ensuring a cushion after getting them to make trades for other pieces. We simply do not know what management teams are thinking, but this is definitely a scenario one could think up.