TSN: Lou Lamoriello: Leafs are using offseason LTIR

Jack Bauer

Registered User
May 30, 2007
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Cape Breton
Has any GM in the last 50 years used and abused the NHL's rules to his own benefit more then Lou?

Incredible that stuff like this can be argued by fanboys for years and cause thousands of posts of concern and at the end of the day, like many said would happen when he came here, Lou finds a loophole to get rid of any salary cap concerns that exist.
 

Shanty

July hockey is where bridges are burned
Jan 9, 2010
2,868
246
Toronto
It's no joke at all. There are a lot of really dumb posts here but there are also a lot of really good posts that are much better thought out and offer much more insight than most of the garbage printed in mainstream media. I hardly even read anything about the Leafs that's not on this board. Not everything printed is garbage of course, if someone here posts a link I usually have a quick look to see if it's worth reading but other than that ...

I guess if you don't have to answer to anyone other than your boss, who is an uninformed old-media editor, you can get away with subpar, factless content time and time again.

When you have 2000 forum posters calling out your obviously incorrect information, you have no choice but to step up your game.
 

GrizzLeaf

Registered Bear
Aug 13, 2010
4,352
984
Quebec
Why are some posters so caught up in what's written and how it's interpreted in the CBA?

As a union rep, I've learned a couple of things about our agreement. First off, it doesn't cover everything. That would be impossible. There's always something new coming up that we have to deal with outside of what's been expressly written. Then it gets added to the agreement when it's time to renegotiate our contract (every 4 years for us).

Most clause in our contract can be interpreted more than one way. BUT, the law is clear that past-precedent becomes the interpretation. In other words, once both parties agree to interpret the clause a certain way, it becomes the same as if it were written that way. The only way to break from past-precedent is to negotiate it once the contract is up. For our union/company it's been that way in the courts... past-precedent is the same as written contract.

Finally, anything not covered on our contract falls into past-precedent. So once it gets handled a certain way, that becomes how it will always be handled, unless we negotiate it differently at contract time.

It's really simple guys. Even the NHL rule book has a second case book that tells officials how to interpret the rules and how exceptional cases were handled in the past. How hard can it be to make the logical leap that the CBA has some grey areas that have been tested and now have past-precedents that are guidelines for everyone. And those grey areas will be filled in at the next negotiations.

Edit: going to add that past-precedent (for our union/company) does't get written down into a second boot somewhere. It comes down to our guys (and the company execs) to remember how things where handled when the last time something similar came up. Once you remember, you prove it by looking into the files from that time and it becomes clear.

If the NHL doesn't inform every manager, every year, and everytime a team hires a rookie GM, then it's really only the experienced guys that know all the so called loop holes (past precedents)
 
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Shanty

July hockey is where bridges are burned
Jan 9, 2010
2,868
246
Toronto
Why are some posters so caught up in what's written and how it's interpreted in the CBA?

As a union rep, I've learned a couple of things about our agreement. First off, it doesn't cover everything. That would be impossible. There's always something new coming up that we have to deal with outside of what's been expressly written. Then it gets added to the agreement when it's time to renegotiate our contract (every 4 years for us).

Most clause in our contract can be interpreted more than one way. BUT, the law is clear that past-precedent becomes the interpretation. In other words, once both parties agree to interpret the clause a certain way, it becomes the same as if it were written that way. The only way to break from past-precedent is to negotiate it at once the contract is up. For our union/company it's been that way in the courts... past-precedent is the same as written contract.

Finally, anything not covered on our contract falls into past-precedent. So once it gets handled a certain way, that becomes how it will always be handled, unless we negotiate it differently at contract time.

It's really simple guys. Even the NHL rule book has a second case book that tells officials how to interpret the rules and who exceptional cases were handled in the past. How hard can it be to make the logical leap that the CBA has some grey areas that have been tested and now have past-precedents that are guidelines for everyone. And those grey areas will be filled in at the next negotiations.

A lot of posters here seem to have trouble with grey areas. If there isn't a itemized bullet-point list of every possible rule and sub-rule, it must not be allowed.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,082
16,062
The Naki
A lot of posters here seem to have trouble with grey areas. If there isn't a itemized bullet-point list of every possible rule and sub-rule, it must not be allowed.

If you write and interprete the rules this way your asking for trouble

GM's will do anything for a professional advantage no matter how detrimental it is to either their team or the league in general
It's probably one of the reasons were going to end up with another lockout
Those battles are usually to clean up some mess that's been created by front office guys and you can already see the bonus issue looming large this time around like contract length was last time

LTIR is basic
All they had to do was have the teams use it as they normally would in season and none of this would even cause an eyebrow raise

How hard is that to put into writing in the CBA?
 

lifelonghockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 18, 2015
6,283
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Lake Huron
Why do people think the Leafs are circumventing the system when guys go on LTIR?

Other teams have injured players too, don't they put the players on LTIR?

The disastrous Robidas signing actually cost the Leafs 2.075 a year in cap space because as plus 35 signing the Leafs could only get 925,000 cap relief. So why there is this silly talk about Robidas Isle, the Leafs didn't benefit.
 

keon

Registered User
Nov 9, 2002
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Why do people think the Leafs are circumventing the system when guys go on LTIR?

Other teams have injured players too, don't they put the players on LTIR?

The disastrous Robidas signing actually cost the Leafs 2.075 a year in cap space because as plus 35 signing the Leafs could only get 925,000 cap relief. So why there is this silly talk about Robidas Isle, the Leafs didn't benefit.

Where do you get this 2.075 per year. Robidas was never demoted to the AHL. He was on LTIR and his full $3.0m counted against the cap. Toronto only used a small amount of LTIR, about $65,000 I believe which could be attached to any of the three LTIR contracts.
 

The Shrike

Registered User
Jul 13, 2008
942
241
Toronto
Cap Space, LTIR players subtracted:

Cap Space - Players - Team

-00.035 - 22 - Chicago
+00.768 - 23 - Dallas
+03.251 - 22 - Tampa Bay
+04.090 - 17 - Washington
+04.316 - 23 - Anaheim
+05.141 - 20 - Philadelphia
+05.931 - 22 - Los Angeles
+06.233 - 19 - Detroit
+06.621 - 23 - Toronto
+07.166 - 19 - Calgary
+07.613 - 20 - Ottawa
+07.656 - 22 - St. Louis
+08.401 - 20 - NY Rangers
+08.813 - 23 - Vancouver
+08.905 - 24 - Winnipeg
+09.162 - 22 - Montreal
+09.398 - 20 - NY Islanders
+09.410 - 18 - San Jose
+10.380 - 20 - Pittsburgh
+10.885 - 18 - Florida
+12.628 - 17 - Colorado
+12.887 - 21 - Columbus
+12.977 - 19 - Boston
+14.921 - 20 - Buffalo
+15.324 - 26 - Las Vegas
+15.791 - 17 - Minnesota
+16.828 - 23 - Edmonton
+17.201 - 21 - Carolina
+20.086 - 19 - Nashville
+24.272 - 15 - New Jersey
+28,673 - 19 - Arizona
 

indigobuffalo

Portage and Main
Feb 10, 2011
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mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,364
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South Mountain
Has there been a confirmation that the Leafs are using LTIR at this exact moment? Or are they just planning to do so at a future date during the off-season?

My reason for asking is the CBA appears to say there's no summer IR until training camp starts. I'm hoping some concrete info will come out of the Leafs off-season situation to support or refute that is correct.
 

bobermay

Registered User
Mar 6, 2009
12,352
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Fredericton
Has there been a confirmation that the Leafs are using LTIR at this exact moment? Or are they just planning to do so at a future date during the off-season?

My reason for asking is the CBA appears to say there's no summer IR until training camp starts. I'm hoping some concrete info will come out of the Leafs off-season situation to support or refute that is correct.

Apparently Bill Daly has said that you can use LTI in the offseason...

So, James Mirtle of The Athletic dropped a bit of a bomb on everyone on Tuesday afternoon, when he wrote an article arguing that the Leafs are not actually up against the cap. His argument is that LTIR can be used in the offseason, and he quotes NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly as evidence.

“Yes, they can,” Daly said when asked if teams were permitted to access additional cap room in this fashion long before the season started. “Same as in-season.”

Link

In Lou's presser at Prospect camp, he confirmed we are using LTI.

This is a unique case though, as nobody has gone over their 10% offseason 'allowance'...
 

Joey Hoser

Registered User
Jan 8, 2008
14,232
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Guelph
It's no joke at all. There are a lot of really dumb posts here but there are also a lot of really good posts that are much better thought out and offer much more insight than most of the garbage printed in mainstream media. I hardly even read anything about the Leafs that's not on this board. Not everything printed is garbage of course, if someone here posts a link I usually have a quick look to see if it's worth reading but other than that ...

We have time and numbers on our side. Dozens/hundreds/thousands of people all contributing to discussion over the course of hours/days/weeks will eventually cover the bases. We're monkeys on typewriters at least.
 

Joey Hoser

Registered User
Jan 8, 2008
14,232
4,143
Guelph
Apparently Bill Daly has said that you can use LTI in the offseason...



In Lou's presser at Prospect camp, he confirmed we are using LTI.

This is a unique case though, as nobody has gone over their 10% offseason 'allowance'...

Considering the short and casual nature of the question and answer, and Bill Daly's reputation for being a bit of a knob, it wouldn't surprise me all that much if Daly was just wrong or didn't properly understand the question.
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
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I've actually read the LTIR rules written into the CBA

I'm no lawyer but if anybody can read that and find that particular rule written into law I'd like to see it because I couldn't find it
In fact it's one of the most convoluted open for interpretation set of rules you will find for practically any sport

Nobody has actually seen it used in this fashion in the off-season before
(I can't find any examples of it anyway)
If some front office guys were surprised to see it " interpreted" in this way it's hardly shocking
If your going to start using "interpretation" your inviting this sort of conjecture not just by "fanboys" but everyone who reads the rules and interprets them differently that's what interpretation is

Lou has Pridham in his back pocket and he was actually involved in writing the CBA so that's a gigantic leg up in interpreting the LTIR rules and not every team is that lucky

Here's some stuff out of Mirtles article in the Athletic

Privately I was hearing from other teams after the Marleau signing "what the heck are they going to do" was the typical response several executives claimed as they had never seen an NHL team that close to the off-season cap while still needing to sign RFA's

The concern was if another Team offersheeted Brown the Leafs couldn't match because of lack of cap space

They had something like 3M left to spend with Brown and Hyman to resign before they hit the limit "one team said last week" before Hyman signed his new deal

"I think there in a tough spot" said another executive

The reason I didn't write this last week was in kept getting different answers as to whether the Leafs were in trouble or not the team itself according to multiple sources was not concerned which was a red flag that we were missing something

The something was that apparently the Leafs can - and already are using LTIR

That goes against what we previously believed but deputy NHL commissioner Bill Daly confirmed to the Athletic that it was allowed

"Yes they can" Daly said when asked if teams were permitted to access additional cap room in this fashion long before the season starts "same as in season"

Doesn't exactly fit your narrative does it
It was a well thought out article and you may want to go and have a good read before you call things "fake news"

I read them too, and nowhere in there does it claim you can't use LTIR during the summer. That was a misunderstanding created and parroted by people who like to claim they know stuff, but don't actually read the source.

Isn't it funny that all it took was asking the league? All a reporter had to do was ask the question to a guy who would know, and they get the correct answer.

Much better than quoting unnamed sources as your evidence. Which btw you failed at giving me the name of just one exec who had the rule wrong. I know, some guy with a website "reported" it, so it's gotta be true.
 

The CyNick

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Sep 17, 2009
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I find that it would be very unlikely that those in any Organization that deal with contracts and the Cap would not have known about this.

I could easily believe that "execs" that don't deal with the Cap may not know, why would they need to?

I mean it depends on their definition of a hockey exec. Is it possible the VP of Human Resources for the Phoenix Coyotes doesn't know the ins and outs of the CBA? Yeah it is. Is that someone I as a reporter would go to for a quote about anything related to the CBA? No, I would go to the GM, or AGM. I find it hard to believe anyone who deals with contacts had this rule wrong.

As I said, the only people who did were fanboys and media, all of which look really dumb right now and are trying to backtrack as to why they believed what they believed.
 

Kiwi

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Mar 5, 2016
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I read them too, and nowhere in there does it claim you can't use LTIR during the summer. That was a misunderstanding created and parroted by people who like to claim they know stuff, but don't actually read the source.

Isn't it funny that all it took was asking the league? All a reporter had to do was ask the question to a guy who would know, and they get the correct answer.

Much better than quoting unnamed sources as your evidence. Which btw you failed at giving me the name of just one exec who had the rule wrong. I know, some guy with a website "reported" it, so it's gotta be true.


How hard is it to admit your wrong?

The reporter contacted Daly and got his story right
He's actually come out with a factually correct excellently though out piece of investigative journalism with some anonymous sources quoted in context and that's not good enough because it doesn't fit your narrative of "fake news"

And all this is in an industry where all the teams do is quietly leak information anonymously to get there's narrative out to the public
 

mouser

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Apparently Bill Daly has said that you can use LTI in the offseason...

I'm aware of that, but it doesn't really answer the question I'm asking. Training Camp is part of the off-season. Daly's statement doesn't clarify whether LTIR can be invoked at any point during the off-season. It would be correct for Daly to say LTIR can be used in the off-season, even if it only applied to the period after training camp started.

In Lou's presser at Prospect camp, he confirmed we are using LTI.

This is a unique case though, as nobody has gone over their 10% offseason 'allowance'...

I read the info on the presser. Wasn't clear to me if Lou actually said the team has already invoked the LTIR Exception or was stating that was an option the team can use. I haven't seen any official announcements that Horton or Lupul have been placed on LTIR. And the Leafs haven't made any cap moves yet that could only be explained by the use of an LTIR Exception.

If for example sign they Brown before training camp without moving anyone then I'd take that as a confirmation off-season LTIR can be invoked before training camp. Or any other moves that can only be explained by an LTIR exception.
 

HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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Why do people think the Leafs are circumventing the system when guys go on LTIR?

Other teams have injured players too, don't they put the players on LTIR?

The disastrous Robidas signing actually cost the Leafs 2.075 a year in cap space because as plus 35 signing the Leafs could only get 925,000 cap relief. So why there is this silly talk about Robidas Isle, the Leafs didn't benefit.

A lot of other teams cannot afford to have a player that doesn't play. They don't have the money for this. Yes, this is a more generalized statement, but its one that is often overlooked (here at least).
 

lifelonghockeyfan

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Dec 18, 2015
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Where do you get this 2.075 per year. Robidas was never demoted to the AHL. He was on LTIR and his full $3.0m counted against the cap. Toronto only used a small amount of LTIR, about $65,000 I believe which could be attached to any of the three LTIR contracts.

Keon: I believe a team is allowed upto 925,000 cap allowance for a "replacement" player for "Robidas" LTIR. Either way, the point I was making that Leafs didn't win or circumvent any cap rules by having Robidas on LTIR.


Now I would argue and I admit I don't know the facts about a different scenario with Lupul.
Lupul knows (or as been told), if you are deemed NHL healthy, you will be sent to the the Marlies. The Leafs would only get 925,00 cap relief instead of his LTIR 5.25m.

So Lupul has the decision....get healthy and ride the buses in AHL in the North East part of the continent during the winter or "rehab" at his home in Malibu. California looks like a better choice.


howehullorr. I don't know if Robidas contract was insured so maybe the Leafs aren't taking a financial hit. Certainly they made the Horton/Clarkson trade so the the Leafs did absorb a 5 years at 5.25m per year out of pocket expense on Hortons uninsured LTIR. The trade was made to rid themselves of Clarkson similar contract as save the Leafs cap space.
Is there any wonder Dave Nonis, and those idiots in the Leafs executive office were fired when Shanahan came to the Leafs. They were not to be trusted with the Maple Leaf Sports $$$$$ (I don't have any sympathy for MLB) and their hockey knowledge was surpassed by 90% on this site.
 
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The CyNick

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How hard is it to admit your wrong?

The reporter contacted Daly and got his story right
He's actually come out with a factually correct excellently though out piece of investigative journalism with some anonymous sources quoted in context and that's not good enough because it doesn't fit your narrative of "fake news"

And all this is in an industry where all the teams do is quietly leak information anonymously to get there's narrative out to the public

I'm not wrong. I was right about this from the start. The majority of the people who post here were wrong because they follow the fake news media like sheep. I was steadfast that if Lou (the credible source) specifically said Brown and Hyman would be in camp and we don't have any cap issues, that's good enough for me.

The fake news media types are the ones who got it wrong. The guys at Cap Friendly who made a ninja edit to their section on LTIR got it wrong (they had it right originally). The majority of people on this site got it wrong. There's a common thread among the people who got it wrong and that is that they refused to believe those who actually have first hand knowledge.

Now you're trying to claim that the same types of people who got the story wrong for years are legitimate when they talk about unnamed sources who claim they didn't know how the rule was interpreted. So it's like you are doubling down on people who provide bad information. Finally the one site actually did proper research and went to another person who would know (Bill Daley), and they confirmed that Lou's statement from earlier in the Summer was 100% accurate. But why did that same publication write articles about how the Leafs needed to make moves? It's because they didn't do proper research in the first place.

So why would I believe them about unnamed sources who they claim admitted to getting the LTIR thing wrong? The truth is the media got it wrong, and they are trying to pull ghosts in with them to make it seem like they were doing their job.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

Registered User
Aug 9, 2011
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A lot of other teams cannot afford to have a player that doesn't play. They don't have the money for this. Yes, this is a more generalized statement, but its one that is often overlooked (here at least).

Yes they can because LTIR salary usually covered by insurance.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

Registered User
Aug 9, 2011
7,573
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I'm not wrong. I was right about this from the start. The majority of the people who post here were wrong because they follow the fake news media like sheep. I was steadfast that if Lou (the credible source) specifically said Brown and Hyman would be in camp and we don't have any cap issues, that's good enough for me.

The fake news media types are the ones who got it wrong. The guys at Cap Friendly who made a ninja edit to their section on LTIR got it wrong (they had it right originally). The majority of people on this site got it wrong. There's a common thread among the people who got it wrong and that is that they refused to believe those who actually have first hand knowledge.

Now you're trying to claim that the same types of people who got the story wrong for years are legitimate when they talk about unnamed sources who claim they didn't know how the rule was interpreted. So it's like you are doubling down on people who provide bad information. Finally the one site actually did proper research and went to another person who would know (Bill Daley), and they confirmed that Lou's statement from earlier in the Summer was 100% accurate. But why did that same publication write articles about how the Leafs needed to make moves? It's because they didn't do proper research in the first place.

So why would I believe them about unnamed sources who they claim admitted to getting the LTIR thing wrong? The truth is the media got it wrong, and they are trying to pull ghosts in with them to make it seem like they were doing their job.

Didn't all the news media types get it wrong? Or are they all fake?

Am I fake?
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
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Didn't all the news media types get it wrong? Or are they all fake?

Am I fake?

To my knowledge the vast majority of the media I am aware of got it wrong. This is a prime example of why media in all forms has proven untrustworthy. Hence the fake news tagline. There's very little actually journalism that happens today. It's all just hot takes and reactions to things they really know nothing about. That's why is largely a failing industry at this point.

The fact that people would read an article basically saying oops we goofed and then trust their sources who have no names attached to them demonstrates why the media can get away with what they do, because their audience is so brain dead.

I other hand got my information from the person who would know first hand, in this case Lou. He was right all along.

Are you fake? I don't know you, so can't say definitively. It's not really my place to decide. However, I have talked to several execs who indicate you are indeed fake. I hope you take my word for it that my story is accurate.
 

Ciao

Registered User
Jul 15, 2010
9,981
5,783
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Has any GM in the last 50 years used and abused the NHL's rules to his own benefit more then Lou?

Incredible that stuff like this can be argued by fanboys for years and cause thousands of posts of concern and at the end of the day, like many said would happen when he came here, Lou finds a loophole to get rid of any salary cap concerns that exist.

Maybe Sam Pollock, who was a pretty sly fox.

Did he deliberately manipulate the 1971 entry draft by sending Ralph Backstrom to the LA Kings for almost nothing, while he held Oaklands first-round draft pick that eventually gave him a choice between Guy Lafleur and Marcel Dionne at #1 overall?

Maybe we'll never know.

Could the answer be buried on Robidas Island?
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,213
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St. Paul, MN
It's also a. It amusing to see Lou being treated as this all knowing NHL rule expert.

The guy was literally fined a 1st round pick for not following league rules not all that long ago.
 

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