Rumor: Looks like it is down to Vegas, Toronto, Carolina and Edmonton for ROR!

[LTIR]

Gavrikov is the only thing remotely close that’s available.

ROR for his career has been a shutdown center. Sometimes the defensive woes can be attributed to the forwards a lot more than one realizes.

Can you explain ROR's +/- stats this season?

Haven't seen him play much this season but they look ugly.

Edit: A pick and prospect isn't really much for a team picking late .

 

[Celtic Note]

He can't do both. He can't even do ROR. He can delete JP maybe? What else can he drop? Yes the PK isn't that great, neither is the one ROR headlined the last 2 years in St. Louis. I think the Oilers 5 on 5 play from their backend is the biggest issue. Has been for a long time. Their PP is the best the NHL has ever seen. That's a tough thing to hang your hat on in the playoffs when whistles go away.

The Blues PK finished 5th in the league last year. Is that bad or something?

 

[rumrokh]

Can you explain ROR's +/- stats this season?

Haven't seen him play much this season but they look ugly.

Edit: A pick and prospect isn't really much for a team picking late .

The Blues' defense just sucks. They back into the zone on rushes, leave their man in front of the net to chase below the goal line, don't stand up at any lines, and then fail to retrieve and clear the puck. Over and over. The personnel is a problem, but it's also coaching/structure. Guys like O'Reilly, Schenn, and Kyrou are not the reason the defensemen are allowing the league's most backdoor goals.

 

[Blueston]

Can you explain ROR's +/- stats this season?

Haven't seen him play much this season but they look ugly.

Edit: A pick and prospect isn't really much for a team picking late .

His PDO is 91%, which is lowest on team and 10% points below where it was last year. There are multiple reasons- poor line construction, crappy goaltending, etc.. - but most of it boils down to bad luck and on a bad team.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I'd like to read that, can you link it?

Did he say the only time a 1st has ever been traded for a rental was 2006? Which would be surprising since it happens every season.

Did he say the only time Carolina traded a 1st for a rental was 2006?

Did he say the only time a 1st for a rental played a key party in a team winning the cup?

I'm not doubting you, just curious what was the context of the post so would like to read it.

Post in question:

adding rentals doenst increase your chance of winning a cup by any reasonable amount. adding one or both of ROR and Tarasenko wont guarantee us anything. What will increase our chances of a cup will be making the playoffs as a top team for many years. I believe the Canes were the last team to win a cup that traded a 1st for a rental.

Of the last 22 cup winners only 13 of the 22 are from the top 4 OA (league stacked 1-16). In a time of the highest parity in the league, its all about getting hot at the right time and matchups.

Even considering all of that, do we really have a top end goalie to get us to the top?

I may have been responsible; I tried to clarify it later in that thread. I remember bringing up Weight in a similar way
on the Canes board, but using the parameter of making an impact. Kaberle and Savard played 3rd pairing minutes. Vermette had a big moment in the Finals, but had been healthy scratched at times in the lead up to it. They’re not remembered as disappointments only because their teams ended up winning.

 

[lawrence]

Reilly will be a massive upgrade for any of them.

 

[HanSolo]

Lol Vegas doesn't have any B+ prospects. Anyone who looked like they could be (Morozov and Brisson) appear cooked based on their AHL stats. Miromanov I guess if you want a bottom pair second PP puck moving defenseman. With Logan Thompson graduating we may legitimately not have a single player in the pipeline likely to be more than a bottom 6 or bottom pair NHLer.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Post in question:



I may have been responsible; I tried to clarify it later in that thread. I remember bringing up Weight in a similar way
on the Canes board, but using the parameter of making an impact. Kaberle and Savard played 3rd pairing minutes. Vermette had a big moment in the Finals, but had been healthy scratched at times in the lead up to it. They’re not remembered as disappointments only because their teams ended up winning.

Thanks. If that's what he's referencing, that's a LONG way from the comment "One Canes fan began a discussion the other day by saying that the only time a 1st had been traded for a rental was in 2006".

 

[LTIR]

Lol Vegas doesn't have any B+ prospects. Anyone who looked like they could be (Morozov and Brisson) appear cooked based on their AHL stats. Miromanov I guess if you want a bottom pair second PP puck moving defenseman. With Logan Thompson graduating we may legitimately not have a single player in the pipeline likely to be more than a bottom 6 or bottom pair NHLer.

What you guys been doing at the drafts?

 

[PocketNines]

I'd like to read that, can you link it?

Did he say the only time a 1st has ever been traded for a rental was 2006? Which would be surprising since it happens every season.

Did he say the only time Carolina traded a 1st for a rental was 2006?

Did he say the only time a 1st for a rental played a key party in a team winning the cup?

I'm not doubting you, just curious what was the context of the post so would like to read it.

"I believe the Canes were the last team to win a Cup that traded a 1st for a rental" was where the discussion started. (That is not true.)

[EDIT – important note, at all times both he and I were totally clear that we were talking about Cup winning teams in the cap era (2006-current) trading a 1st for a rental. That's why when I showed him list data it was exclusively the Cup winning teams in the cap era.]

He is calling ROR a rental because to his team ROR would be a rental (he argues without resistance). Yet that does not actually make ROR a rental to all teams. Obviously.

Since ROR is not a rental to all teams, any conclusion on "last team to trade for a rental" is already off-topic. This is straightforward.

I am not telling him, anywhere in the previous thread or here, that Carolina will acquire and extend ROR. The more that I pointedly agree with him on this subject, the more determined he is to pretend that it's the real dispute. So we've taken a bad faith turn.

Thanks. If that's what he's referencing, that's a LONG way from the comment "One Canes fan began a discussion the other day by saying that the only time a 1st had been traded for a rental was in 2006".

Yeah ... that's not what it was ...

 

[JTRAIN1966]

ROR has had poor offensive results this season because our GM let David Perron go and the Blues haven't had stable lines all season long, along with some coaching changes that killed our powerplay. The team has just been a complete mess.

He's still a beast on faceoffs and defensively. All he needs is the right linemates and his offense will come back.

He'll end up in Boston somehow .

 

[cheesymc]

Wow, I don’t think any of those teams really need ROR. Other than Carolina, most would better targeting defenseman.

 

[HanSolo]

What you guys been doing at the drafts?

Short story: most of the time they didn't have first round picks, or their first round picks were low due to 3 of a possible 6 draft years being conference finalists. Development had left a lot to be desired. The majority of the young players on the VGK were not acquired at the draft.

Long story:

Pulled from HockeyDB:

Vegas Golden Knights Draft History
2022 Entry Too Early but haven't heard anything remarkable.
Draft Num. Round Player
2022 Entry 48 2 Matyas Sapovaliv
2022 Entry 79 3 Jordan Gustafson
2022 Entry 128 4 Cameron Whitehead
2022 Entry 145 5 Patrick Guay
2022 Entry 177 6 Ben Hemmerling
2022 Entry 209 7 Abram Wiebe

2021 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player
2021 Entry 30 1 Zachary Dean Meh
2021 Entry 38 2 Daniil Chayka Super meh from my limited viewings. Don't know about the rest.
2021 Entry 102 4 Jakub Brabenec
2021 Entry 128 4 Jakub Demek
2021 Entry 190 6 Artur Cholach
2021 Entry 222 7 Carl Lindbom

2020 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player
2020 Entry 29 1 Brendan Brisson was great in college. Seemed like one of our last bluechips left. Abysmal production in the AHL.
2020 Entry 68 3 Lukas Cormier meh. Rest are unremarkable.
2020 Entry 91 3 Jackson Hallum
2020 Entry 125 5 Jesper Vikman
2020 Entry 184 6 Noah Ellis
2020 Entry 215 7 Maxim Marushev

2019 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player
2019 Entry 17 1 Peyton Krebs traded to Buffalo. Hasn't exactly been lighting it up.
2019 Entry 41 2 Kaedan Korczak actually projects to be a decent bottom pair shutdown specialist but I wouldn't call that a B+ prospect.
2019 Entry 79 3 Pavel Dorofeyev has had a taste of the NHL, looked completely out of place and doesn't have stellar AHL numbers
2019 Entry 86 3 Layton Ahac
2019 Entry 110 4 Ryder Donovan
2019 Entry 135 5 Isaiah Saville looked like he could be what Thompson ended up being. Currently in the ECHL with pretty average numbers. Haven't seen enough of the rest but they're on no one's radar for anything.
2019 Entry 139 5 Marcus Kallionkieli
2019 Entry 141 5 Mason Primeau

2018 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player
2018 Entry 61 2 Ivan Morozov was pretty great in Russia. 11 points in the AHL this year.
2018 Entry 99 4 Slava Demin meh. Never impressed me.
2018 Entry 115 4 Paul Cotter I guess you can still call him a prospect since he hasn't locked in his NHL spot yet. But once he rounds out his game he'll be a solid 3rd line depth scorer. Maybe second line if something goes crazy with his development.
2018 Entry 135 5 Brandon Kruse meh
2018 Entry 154 5 Connor Corcoran once looked like he could be a solid bottom pair defenseman. Now even that is unlikely.
2018 Entry 180 6 Peter Diliberatore
2018 Entry 185 6 Xavier Bouchard had like 2 months of great play that made people think he had good potential. Very forgettable since.
2018 Entry 208 7 Jordan Kooy

2017 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player
2017 Entry 6 1 Cody Glass ruined by Vegas management/coaching, traded away. Trying to reclaim his career in Nashville.
2017 Entry 13 1 Nick Suzuki traded. Doing great.
2017 Entry 15 1 Erik Brannstrom traded. Doing okay.
2017 Entry 34 2 Nicolas Hague still with the team. Hasn't progressed much this year but he's a solid bottom pair guy with potential to be more and time to get there.
2017 Entry 62 2 Jake Leschyshyn kept getting thrown in the lineup but he's awful. Traded to NYR.
2017 Entry 65 3 Jonas Rondbjerg occasional injury call up, never makes any impact to speak of in his limited NHL time.
2017 Entry 96 4 Maksim Zhukov long shot prospect that got worse and worse with time.
2017 Entry 127 5 Lucas Elvenes always talked about as having an outside shot to be a second line winger. Good wheels, good shot, dampered by low hockey IQ and tunnel vision. Traded to Anaheim.
2017 Entry 142 5 Jack Dugan looked like he might be a dark horse blue-chip prospect for a while. Just another body on the AHL roster with unremarkable numbers.
2017 Entry 158 6 Nick Campoli
2017 Entry 161 6 Jiri Pantera Has had some NHL time on the bench. Not good enough to be a regular backup.
2017 Entry 189 7 Ben Jones was actually very good in college for a 7th rounder. Had an outside shot to be good but same story as Dugan at this point.

 

[SwivelSchwartz]

The amount of times Ryan Orielly gets comepared to nick foligno is actually hilarious.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

"I believe the Canes were the last team to win a Cup that traded a 1st for a rental" was where the discussion started. (That is not true.)

[EDIT – important note, at all times both he and I were totally clear that we were talking about Cup winning teams in the cap era (2006-current) trading a 1st for a rental. That's why when I showed him list data it was exclusively the Cup winning teams in the cap era.]

He is calling ROR a rental because to his team ROR would be a rental (he argues without resistance). Yet that does not actually make ROR a rental to all teams. Obviously.

Since ROR is not a rental to all teams, any conclusion on "last team to trade for a rental" is already off-topic. This is straightforward.

I am not telling him, anywhere in the previous thread or here, that Carolina will acquire and extend ROR. The more that I pointedly agree with him on this subject, the more determined he is to pretend that it's the real dispute. So we've taken a bad faith turn.


Yeah ... that's not what it was ...

Ok, that's different than the post you made where you said "One Canes fan began a discussion the other day by saying that the only time a 1st had been traded for a rental was in 2006, which was openly wrong."

If you and he were clear on you were talking about "cup champs", it wasn't clear in this post so thus my asking about it.

 

[34]

It won’t be Toronto.

 

[PocketNines]

Ok, that's different than the post you made where you said "One Canes fan began a discussion the other day by saying that the only time a 1st had been traded for a rental was in 2006, which was openly wrong."

If you and he were clear on you were talking about "cup champs", it wasn't clear in this post so thus my asking about it.

Completely understood. I should have said "Cup champs in the cap era" but since that wasn't part of any of the dispute in this thread and there's a point where wordiness starts to work against communication effort I omitted it. Next time I'll consider an acronym so that I can be both complete and less wordy.

Now stepping all the way back,

he was, at essence, originally arguing: Trading a 1st for a rental is something that is faintly (almost never) leads to a Cup, and since Carolina is only doing rentals, this year for them it's a remote longshot way of winning a Cup. I heard what he was arguing. I did not argue about the Carolina part.

my basic argument was: hold on a sec, number one you're on a factual level forgetting some examples just in that narrow scope, and number two the key is not so much what category of contract the impact player has the following year, but instead that most (but certainly not all) teams that won the Cup in the cap era traded a 1st+ at some point for a key addition to that winning roster.

So why does it matter? It matters to other teams, and this is more than just a Canes-Blues thread. Stacked up against the not-totally-accurate framing that a rental almost never leads to a Cup in the cap era is the data-based reality that in all probability the league's Cup champ added someone for a 1st at some point its winning season, making it more necessary than sufficient.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Completely understood. I should have said "Cup champs in the cap era" but since that wasn't part of any of the dispute in this thread and there's a point where wordiness starts to work against communication effort I omitted it. Next time I'll consider an acronym so that I can be both complete and less wordy.

Fair, I was just confused by the statement but I get what you are saying now.

Now stepping all the way back,

he was, at essence, originally arguing: Trading a 1st for a rental is something that is faintly (almost never) leads to a Cup, and since Carolina is only doing rentals, this year for them it's a remote longshot way of winning a Cup. I heard what he was arguing. I did not argue about the Carolina part.

my basic argument was: hold on a sec, number one you're on a factual level forgetting some examples just in that narrow scope, and number two the key is not so much what category of contract the impact player has the following year, but instead that most (but certainly not all) teams that won the Cup in the cap era traded a 1st+ at some point for a key addition to that winning roster.

So why does it matter? It matters to other teams, and this is more than just a Canes-Blues thread. Stacked up against the not-totally-accurate framing that a rental almost never leads to a Cup in the cap era is the data-based reality that in all probability the league's Cup champ added someone for a 1st at some point its winning season, making it more necessary than sufficient.

That's all fine. Not my argument so I won't weigh into it now. I was only questioning the initial statement, which you explained.

 

[Fist of Fury]

Carolina as a rental, then goes back to the Blues. Just like Doug Weight 2006, that work'd out well for the Hurricanes.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

His PDO is 91%, which is lowest on team and 10% points below where it was last year. There are multiple reasons- poor line construction, crappy goaltending, etc.. - but most of it boils down to bad luck and on a bad team.

And being absolutely awful when the goalie is pulled hasn’t helped either

Carolina as a rental, then goes back to the Blues. Just like Doug Weight 2006, that work'd out well for the Hurricanes.

The Canes are the team I like the most in the East, so I’d be happy with that lol

 

[Menzinger]

The biggest obstacle for ROR returning a 1st is that there are a LOT of good players available this tdl, and there's only going to be so many buyers and only so many of those who are also willing to move 1sts (at MOST there will be like 6 traded, and that's probably a high estimate).

A deal for him likely starts with a 2nd. The type of + comes down to things like level of retention, ect.

 

[LTIR]

The biggest obstacle for ROR returning a 1st is that there are a LOT of good players available this tdl, and there's only going to be so many buyers and only so many of those who are also willing to move 1sts (at MOST there will be like 6 traded, and that's probably a high estimate).

A deal for him likely starts with a 2nd. The type of + comes down to things like level of retention, ect.

His play this year hasn't helped..
He might fetch STL less than all of Tarasenko, Barba and Acciari.

 

[Blueston]

His play this year hasn't helped..
He might fetch STL less than all of Tarasenko, Barba and Acciari.

I would expect he fetches the most of those 4. ROR is special player whose game is built for playoffs, even if he has lost a step. I could see Barbie getting more than Tarasenko though, due to his lower salary and higher versatility. Pretty much every contender is linked to Barbashev.

 

[LTIR]

I would expect he fetches the most of those 4. ROR is special player whose game is built for playoffs, even if he has lost a step. I could see Barbie getting more than Tarasenko though, due to his lower salary and higher versatility. Pretty much every contender is linked to Barbashev.

4 solid trade chips regardless for STL... Hopefully fetches your team enough magic bullets for a quick retool.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Sure lots of upside but with that cost of acquisition I sure teams will look elsewhere first and possibly circle back.

Elsewhere to what? Domi? Toews?