Hockeyholic
Registered User
Crosby is in the same tier as a guy like Lafleur. Neither consistently dominated during the regular season. But they were at their best during the postseason.
I agree on the regular season stuff McDavid has a good chance of passing Crosby offensively if he stays healthy but he has a big hill to climb in terms of the playoffs.
In Crosby's first 45 years he made the SC finals twice and has an excellent line.
Let's compare them after 4 years
McDavid might make the playoffs this year and we will see how he does then but Crosby in his 5th year added this line
Crosby 49-24-39-63 +16
McDavid 13-5-4-9 +3
McDavid might make the playoffs this year and we will see how he does then but Crosby in his 5th year added this line
13-6-13-19 +6
This might be a hot take but I doubt that McDavid is ever seen as a better playoff performer than Crosby.
Crosby simply has built up such an important playoff resume already.
Yup a blind side head shot and a slap shot to the mouth is due to his style
The 2005-11 era of hockey was fast paced, hard hitting, full of cheapshots and concussions. Sure, it wasn't on 90s level for the pure brutality, but did we see Chelios go up and crack Gretzky in the head with a blindsided hit after the play?.
Simple terms?
Crosby lost 2 surefire Hart/Ross trophies in 2010-11 and 2012-13 due to a very cheap hit by a slug and a freak slap shot to his jaw by his own teammate (Orpik...no wonder he missed the net by 15 feet). The prime of Crosby's career was largely impacted by injuries, yet he still possess one of the greatest resumes in the history of the sport.
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Roy had HHOF skaters.
Hasek didn't.
Let's nix this nonsense.
I have no problem with people ranking Bobby Hull over Sidney Crosby. I did it myself in the project (in round 2 anyway IIRC). Bobby Hull was incredible. I was just watching a game of his this week, his weight transfert on his slapshots is ridiculous. I can see it visually, that he has a better slapshot than EVERYONE in the league today, and I'm a Montreal fan who saw Chara play for years and witnesses Weber every week, and I remember MacInnis very well. Hull was an animal. Lions are born, not made. For proof, see his son's slapshot. Hull's shot with current sticks would beat Chara's comfortably. He was a little strange, that Hull guy, he doesn't look human much on the ice.
Also, anyone who wants to downplay his accomplishments because of the era he played in is living in a fantasy world. Hull excelled in arguably the strongest era in hockey history, and certainly stronger than Crosby's.
This isn't backed up statistically. Is this just a subjective assessment?
I have no problem with people ranking Bobby Hull over Sidney Crosby. I did it myself in the project (in round 2 anyway IIRC). Bobby Hull was incredible. I was just watching a game of his this week, his weight transfert on his slapshots is ridiculous. I can see it visually, that he has a better slapshot than EVERYONE in the league today, and I'm a Montreal fan who saw Chara play for years and witnesses Weber every week, and I remember MacInnis very well. Hull was an animal. Lions are born, not made. For proof, see his son's slapshot. Hull's shot with current sticks would beat Chara's comfortably. He was a little strange, that Hull guy, he doesn't look human much on the ice.
Also, anyone who wants to downplay his accomplishments because of the era he played in is living in a fantasy world. Hull excelled in arguably the strongest era in hockey history, and certainly stronger than Crosby's.
HOH has kinda caught up to where ESPN (2004; 8th best player of all-time), THN (2004; #1 goaltender), THN (2007; 5th best player since 1967), the Beckett Goaltender Poll (2015; #1 goaltender), and the NHLPA Player Poll (2018; #1 goaltender) have ranked him, but HFBoards as a whole often ranks him noticeably lower.
Certainly a gap in perception; the main board - and even HOH about a decade ago - leaned heavily towards Hasek as the best goaltender and Roy more in the pack with players like Guy Lafleur and Stan Mikita. It wasn’t until substantial work was done by people like Hockey Outsider to normalize save percentage across scoring eras that Roy’s reputation on HOH has ascended to where the media and players have often ranked him.
If we’re looking at goaltenders, I think there’s a stronger divide on Hasek/Brodeur (HFBoards leans Hasek, media/players lean Brodeur) and Sawchuk/Plante (HFBoards leans Plante, media/players lean Sawchuk).
I think the lowest I’ve seen Roy recently was 17th on TSN’s list (Sawchuk at #10, Plante at #15, Hall at #20, Hasek at #21, Brodeur at #25). But even then, that list was just TSN moving newer players into the old THN list, and I think people are only comfortable with so many goaltenders up at the very top. Like, I don’t think people have an issue with Crosby and Hull or Morenz or Beliveau (for instance) being back-to-back if they’re seen as near equals, but goaltenders being by far the least represented of F/D/G seem to punish each other’s perceived standing with their success.
For what it’s worth, TSN had Crosby at #8, so they think he’s better than literally every goaltender.
This presumes that dominant talent from the current era, whenever in time that may be, will always be superior to dominant talent in the past.
That is not reasonable, IMO, as unreasonable as it is to declare an era being better than another to the extent of using it to rate a player higher than another.
I honestly think it makes more sense to rank goalies separately, they are really in a world of their own from the rest of the skaters, not that I think it's a problem to include them it's just tough to say whether Hasek or whoever else is better than a Crosby or Howe type of player.
Crosby is in the same tier as a guy like Lafleur. Neither consistently dominated during the regular season. But they were at their best during the postseason.
As someone who has spent WAY too much time analyzing playoff statistics, I don't know that I would look too heavily at players' playoff performances in isolated sections like this and attempt to make a broad assessment. Not everyone enters the league in the same situation.
Joe Sakic - First 7 Seasons
12 GP, 7-4-11, -11 (team record 4-8)
In his next 7 seasons, Sakic added 137 points and 13 GWG in his team's 78 playoff victories.
Besides, in Crosby's 6th-10th seasons (2011-2015; the years he was automatic for the league lead in points-per-game), he recorded 36 points in 38 games and was a -9. I don't think that would be a fair representation of him as a whole.
Crosby is right there among the best playoff performers of all time
here’s how I see it after 5 seasons (Crosby vs McDavid) :
Regular season : McDavid > Crosby
Playoffs : Crosby > McDavid (AINEC)
Overall, it’s close, but i like when the resume of a player is balanced. So Crosby has the edge for me as of right now
I think a lot of people feel that way (*takes a drink*), and I think it’s how they end up doing each other a disservice while being arbitrarily sprinkled through ranked lists.
The perception of Jacques Plante went from directly trailing skaters Bourque and Morenz in 2008 and 2009 (essentially where Sidney Crosby was rated most recently) to back behind Kelly and Potvin. No disrespect to Kelly and Potvin, but has anything substantial changed regarding Plante? If anything, the official release of pre-1984 goaltending statistics should have bolstered his argument to retain his positioning even with the statistical re-appreciation of Patrick Roy.
But with Hasek staying more or less still (he was back-to-back with Plante in 2008 and 2009 behind Bourque and Morenz) and Roy gaining 7 spots, I think Plante dropped 6 spots somewhat arbitrarily. Meanwhile the 4th-7th best defensemen all rank #14-18 and above every pre-WHA goaltender because unlike goaltenders when defensemen (and forwards) get compared to each other, they pull each other up.
So your original point was McDavid, like the Big Four, has established himself as the undisputed best player of his era. This reasonable post seems to contradict that which is cool.
You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?
Yes, certainly.
What, you could argue were his prime years (2010-14) were pretty much ruined by injuries.
A lot of people like to bring up that Crosby was on pace for 130+ points that one year well.. that's mere speculation. Maybe he would have slowed down and ended up at ~115 pts. Or maybe he would have netted 135. But that's the thing. one way or the other, he missed out on that.
You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?
Is it as weak as Crosby losing Art Rosses out right during healthy seasons to Henrik Sedin and Jaime Benn?
Or was it truly such a strong Art Ross win when he beat the likes of Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry etc? These are all fine players but they’re very clearly below someone like Kucherov.
Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin collectively represent a better pool of the 3 best players in the world than our top 3 currently, but the rest of the league has much more talent today than those lean years post lockout up until this newer class started hitting the scene.
Same goes with Ovechkin. Who are these big goal scorers he’s beating routinely?
Contrary to popular belief, it’s not a linear line going steadily up in terms of talent in the league. There’s influxes and lulls over time and we’re experiencing an influx over the last few years which tells me McDavid’s generation is already weak.
You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?
I base performances on how they match up against a decent sample of their peers (Top 10 - 20 scorers). Perhaps there isn't an OV or Malkin to compete with McDavid but using a larger sample eliminates this.
That being said, they show a similar dominance vs. their peers thru 4 seasons.
To your original point though, why would you view Crosby as being disappointing and McDavid not if you think McDavid plays in a weaker generation?
As I said in my OP, I expected Crosby to become a modern day Gretzky, so he was disappointing in that regard.