Looking back at Crosby's career, is there any disappointment?

[Hockeyholic]

Crosby is in the same tier as a guy like Lafleur. Neither consistently dominated during the regular season. But they were at their best during the postseason.

 

[Voight]

FWIW, McDavid has played 4 full seasons and has already equaled him in scoring titles, has 1 less Hart Trophy and 1 less Pearson trophy. By April, he could have 3 scoring titles, two Harts and 3 Pearsons depending on how this season finishes. That is all in just 5 seasons of work.

Sid's career is a disappointment in that as someone who was anointed "The Next One" he only managed to lead the league in a major stat 4 times total and win "only" two Harts, 3 Pearsons. Internationally he did just fine, being one of the key players in one of Canadas greatest international runs ever. Sure injuries were a factor but we evaluate players careers based on what they actually did.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I agree on the regular season stuff McDavid has a good chance of passing Crosby offensively if he stays healthy but he has a big hill to climb in terms of the playoffs.

In Crosby's first 45 years he made the SC finals twice and has an excellent line.

Let's compare them after 4 years

McDavid might make the playoffs this year and we will see how he does then but Crosby in his 5th year added this line

Crosby 49-24-39-63 +16

McDavid 13-5-4-9 +3

McDavid might make the playoffs this year and we will see how he does then but Crosby in his 5th year added this line

13-6-13-19 +6

This might be a hot take but I doubt that McDavid is ever seen as a better playoff performer than Crosby.

Crosby simply has built up such an important playoff resume already.

As someone who has spent WAY too much time analyzing playoff statistics, I don't know that I would look too heavily at players' playoff performances in isolated sections like this and attempt to make a broad assessment. Not everyone enters the league in the same situation.

Joe Sakic - First 7 Seasons
12 GP, 7-4-11, -11 (team record 4-8)

In his next 7 seasons, Sakic added 137 points and 13 GWG in his team's 78 playoff victories.

Besides, in Crosby's 6th-10th seasons (2011-2015; the years he was automatic for the league lead in points-per-game), he recorded 36 points in 38 games and was a -9. I don't think that would be a fair representation of him as a whole.

 

[Voight]

Yup a blind side head shot and a slap shot to the mouth is due to his style

The 2005-11 era of hockey was fast paced, hard hitting, full of cheapshots and concussions. Sure, it wasn't on 90s level for the pure brutality, but did we see Chelios go up and crack Gretzky in the head with a blindsided hit after the play?.

Simple terms?

Crosby lost 2 surefire Hart/Ross trophies in 2010-11 and 2012-13 due to a very cheap hit by a slug and a freak slap shot to his jaw by his own teammate (Orpik...no wonder he missed the net by 15 feet). The prime of Crosby's career was largely impacted by injuries, yet he still possess one of the greatest resumes in the history of the sport.
.

Here we got with he head shot BS.... thought people dropped that by now....

(Have a hard time believe the NHL wouldn't of suspended Steckel if they thought the hit was dirty, especially after taking out their Golden Child.....)

Roy had HHOF skaters.
Hasek didn't.

Let's nix this nonsense.

Its funny tho that he still managed to win 3 Conn Smythes even with all these HHOF skaters..........

 

[Voight]

I have no problem with people ranking Bobby Hull over Sidney Crosby. I did it myself in the project (in round 2 anyway IIRC). Bobby Hull was incredible. I was just watching a game of his this week, his weight transfert on his slapshots is ridiculous. I can see it visually, that he has a better slapshot than EVERYONE in the league today, and I'm a Montreal fan who saw Chara play for years and witnesses Weber every week, and I remember MacInnis very well. Hull was an animal. Lions are born, not made. For proof, see his son's slapshot. Hull's shot with current sticks would beat Chara's comfortably. He was a little strange, that Hull guy, he doesn't look human much on the ice.

Also, anyone who wants to downplay his accomplishments because of the era he played in is living in a fantasy world. Hull excelled in arguably the strongest era in hockey history, and certainly stronger than Crosby's.

Nevermind that Hull left the NHL at 33 years old. His last NHL season, he was a 1st AST, 2nd in goals and 7th in points. He still had plenty to give / accomplish.

 

[TheGuiminator]

This isn't backed up statistically. Is this just a subjective assessment?

It is with the trophies though

 

[authentic]

I have no problem with people ranking Bobby Hull over Sidney Crosby. I did it myself in the project (in round 2 anyway IIRC). Bobby Hull was incredible. I was just watching a game of his this week, his weight transfert on his slapshots is ridiculous. I can see it visually, that he has a better slapshot than EVERYONE in the league today, and I'm a Montreal fan who saw Chara play for years and witnesses Weber every week, and I remember MacInnis very well. Hull was an animal. Lions are born, not made. For proof, see his son's slapshot. Hull's shot with current sticks would beat Chara's comfortably. He was a little strange, that Hull guy, he doesn't look human much on the ice.

Also, anyone who wants to downplay his accomplishments because of the era he played in is living in a fantasy world. Hull excelled in arguably the strongest era in hockey history, and certainly stronger than Crosby's.

I think if you thoroughly read and understood wetcoasts post just above yours that totally misses the point. Obviously he is in contention for 5th best player and has likely the best slapshot ever, that doesn't change that certain arguments for him are weak ones, and also his era was absolutely not stronger than Crosby's, that's a very misguided opinion on here.

 

[authentic]

HOH has kinda caught up to where ESPN (2004; 8th best player of all-time), THN (2004; #1 goaltender), THN (2007; 5th best player since 1967), the Beckett Goaltender Poll (2015; #1 goaltender), and the NHLPA Player Poll (2018; #1 goaltender) have ranked him, but HFBoards as a whole often ranks him noticeably lower.

Certainly a gap in perception; the main board - and even HOH about a decade ago - leaned heavily towards Hasek as the best goaltender and Roy more in the pack with players like Guy Lafleur and Stan Mikita. It wasn’t until substantial work was done by people like Hockey Outsider to normalize save percentage across scoring eras that Roy’s reputation on HOH has ascended to where the media and players have often ranked him.

If we’re looking at goaltenders, I think there’s a stronger divide on Hasek/Brodeur (HFBoards leans Hasek, media/players lean Brodeur) and Sawchuk/Plante (HFBoards leans Plante, media/players lean Sawchuk).

I think the lowest I’ve seen Roy recently was 17th on TSN’s list (Sawchuk at #10, Plante at #15, Hall at #20, Hasek at #21, Brodeur at #25). But even then, that list was just TSN moving newer players into the old THN list, and I think people are only comfortable with so many goaltenders up at the very top. Like, I don’t think people have an issue with Crosby and Hull or Morenz or Beliveau (for instance) being back-to-back if they’re seen as near equals, but goaltenders being by far the least represented of F/D/G seem to punish each other’s perceived standing with their success.

For what it’s worth, TSN had Crosby at #8, so they think he’s better than literally every goaltender.

I honestly think it makes more sense to rank goalies separately, they are really in a world of their own from the rest of the skaters, not that I think it's a problem to include them it's just tough to say whether Hasek or whoever else is better than a Crosby or Howe type of player.

 

[authentic]

This presumes that dominant talent from the current era, whenever in time that may be, will always be superior to dominant talent in the past.

That is not reasonable, IMO, as unreasonable as it is to declare an era being better than another to the extent of using it to rate a player higher than another.

It might not be but it's too hard to determine which eras actually have better talent, it's much easier and IMO accurate to look at the league today and conclude that since the skill levels are closer together and there are less slugs/goons, horrible goalies and defenses to take advantage of, it only makes sense (especially since it's not likely that one era has much better overall talent than another at the top, but rather bigger gaps due to atleast somewhat quantifiable things like expansion, size of talent pool, parity amongst teams and what not) that it was easier to separate yourself statistically. The argument that everyone had those advantages doesn't work for me either because when the best of the best have more to exploit they'll exploit it more often (especially when they played a higher percentage of the game than the rest of their team compared to today, and also not all team situations were close to equal for players back then), that's how it goes.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I honestly think it makes more sense to rank goalies separately, they are really in a world of their own from the rest of the skaters, not that I think it's a problem to include them it's just tough to say whether Hasek or whoever else is better than a Crosby or Howe type of player.

I think a lot of people feel that way (*takes a drink*), and I think it’s how they end up doing each other a disservice while being arbitrarily sprinkled through ranked lists.

The perception of Jacques Plante went from directly trailing skaters Bourque and Morenz in 2008 and 2009 (essentially where Sidney Crosby was rated most recently) to back behind Kelly and Potvin. No disrespect to Kelly and Potvin, but has anything substantial changed regarding Plante? If anything, the official release of pre-1984 goaltending statistics should have bolstered his argument to retain his positioning even with the statistical re-appreciation of Patrick Roy.

But with Hasek staying more or less still (he was back-to-back with Plante in 2008 and 2009 behind Bourque and Morenz) and Roy gaining 7 spots, I think Plante dropped 6 spots somewhat arbitrarily. Meanwhile the 4th-7th best defensemen all rank #14-18 and above every pre-WHA goaltender because unlike goaltenders when defensemen (and forwards) get compared to each other, they pull each other up.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby is in the same tier as a guy like Lafleur. Neither consistently dominated during the regular season. But they were at their best during the postseason.

Crosby is definitely ahead of Lafleur who has an awesome 6 year peak concurrent with the same time period of playoff excellence.

So Guy was consistent for those 6 years it's that his career outside of those 6 years was really average and lots of all time greats, like Crosby, have 6 years like that plus better and longer primes as well.

 

[wetcoast]

As someone who has spent WAY too much time analyzing playoff statistics, I don't know that I would look too heavily at players' playoff performances in isolated sections like this and attempt to make a broad assessment. Not everyone enters the league in the same situation.

Joe Sakic - First 7 Seasons
12 GP, 7-4-11, -11 (team record 4-8)

In his next 7 seasons, Sakic added 137 points and 13 GWG in his team's 78 playoff victories.

Besides, in Crosby's 6th-10th seasons (2011-2015; the years he was automatic for the league lead in points-per-game), he recorded 36 points in 38 games and was a -9. I don't think that would be a fair representation of him as a whole.

Sure team situations do matter as Crosby and McDavid both entered NHL with low quality teams as did Sakic.

But shouldn't Crosby get some credit for being the captain and face of the Oens franchise and being in 2 SC finals in his first 5 years?

If McDavid goes on to have a playoff career like Sakic that will definitely help his all time standing but that's still a huge hill in the cap era.

 

[daver]

Crosby is right there among the best playoff performers of all time

here’s how I see it after 5 seasons (Crosby vs McDavid) :

Regular season : McDavid > Crosby

Playoffs : Crosby > McDavid (AINEC)

Overall, it’s close, but i like when the resume of a player is balanced. So Crosby has the edge for me as of right now

So your original point was McDavid, like the Big Four, has established himself as the undisputed best player of his era. This reasonable post seems to contradict that which is cool.

 

[authentic]

I think a lot of people feel that way (*takes a drink*), and I think it’s how they end up doing each other a disservice while being arbitrarily sprinkled through ranked lists.

The perception of Jacques Plante went from directly trailing skaters Bourque and Morenz in 2008 and 2009 (essentially where Sidney Crosby was rated most recently) to back behind Kelly and Potvin. No disrespect to Kelly and Potvin, but has anything substantial changed regarding Plante? If anything, the official release of pre-1984 goaltending statistics should have bolstered his argument to retain his positioning even with the statistical re-appreciation of Patrick Roy.

But with Hasek staying more or less still (he was back-to-back with Plante in 2008 and 2009 behind Bourque and Morenz) and Roy gaining 7 spots, I think Plante dropped 6 spots somewhat arbitrarily. Meanwhile the 4th-7th best defensemen all rank #14-18 and above every pre-WHA goaltender because unlike goaltenders when defensemen (and forwards) get compared to each other, they pull each other up.

So maybe it really is best to rank them separately then lol

 

[TheGuiminator]

So your original point was McDavid, like the Big Four, has established himself as the undisputed best player of his era. This reasonable post seems to contradict that which is cool.

You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?

 

[quoipourquoi]

You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?

I don’t know. Kane, Kucherov, Malkin, Marchand, and even Crosby himself have hovered between 1.13-1.20 points-per-game in the last five seasons (McDavid is at 1.33). MacKinnon for the last three seasons. I’d say the competitors for scoring titles over the past five years are the same recurring players while 2011-2015 was much more of a revolving door of new faces.

I’d say this has been maybe the most stable if not predictable the very top handful of scorers in the NHL has been since 1995-1999, and I think that might be a sign that we’ve got quite a few people playing excellent hockey all at once.

 

[Neutrinos]

Yes, certainly.

What, you could argue were his prime years (2010-14) were pretty much ruined by injuries.

A lot of people like to bring up that Crosby was on pace for 130+ points that one year well.. that's mere speculation. Maybe he would have slowed down and ended up at ~115 pts. Or maybe he would have netted 135. But that's the thing. one way or the other, he missed out on that.

Being on pace for something is not speculation, it's a mathematical fact

Saying someone was on pace for 130 points is not the same as saying they would've scored 130 points

 

[Video Nasty]

You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?

Is it as weak as Crosby losing Art Rosses out right during healthy seasons to Henrik Sedin and Jaime Benn?

Or was it truly such a strong Art Ross win when he beat the likes of Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry etc? These are all fine players but they’re very clearly below someone like Kucherov.

Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin collectively represent a better pool of the 3 best players in the world than our top 3 currently, but the rest of the league has much more talent today than those lean years post lockout up until this newer class started hitting the scene.

Same goes with Ovechkin. Who are these big goal scorers he’s beating routinely?

Contrary to popular belief, it’s not a linear line going steadily up in terms of talent in the league. There’s influxes and lulls over time and we’re experiencing an influx over the last few years which tells me McDavid’s generation is hardly weak.

Edit: Hardly was autocorrected go already.

 

[TheGuiminator]

Is it as weak as Crosby losing Art Rosses out right during healthy seasons to Henrik Sedin and Jaime Benn?

Or was it truly such a strong Art Ross win when he beat the likes of Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry etc? These are all fine players but they’re very clearly below someone like Kucherov.

Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin collectively represent a better pool of the 3 best players in the world than our top 3 currently, but the rest of the league has much more talent today than those lean years post lockout up until this newer class started hitting the scene.

Same goes with Ovechkin. Who are these big goal scorers he’s beating routinely?

Contrary to popular belief, it’s not a linear line going steadily up in terms of talent in the league. There’s influxes and lulls over time and we’re experiencing an influx over the last few years which tells me McDavid’s generation is already weak.

Those are 3 generational talents right there, I’m aware this current generations has more depth in talents, but I can’t find 3 players at the same tier as McDavid. Yes Kucherov, MacKinnon, Matthews, Eichel all good, but not in McDavid’s level.

I think weak isn’t the appropriate word I should use to describe this current generation. But i don’t think there’s a legitimate threat to McDavid right now like there was with Crosby back then

 

[Voight]

Gretzky only ever losing Art Ross' to Lemieux during his prime, likewise Mario only losing them to either Gretzky, injuries or Jagr, compared to Crosby losing them to the likes of Benn & Sedin is where some disappointment may be found.

 

[daver]

You realize that McDavid’s generation is weaker than Crosby’s?

I base performances on how they match up against a decent sample of their peers (Top 10 - 20 scorers). Perhaps there isn't an OV or Malkin to compete with McDavid but using a larger sample eliminates this.

That being said, they show a similar dominance vs. their peers thru 4 seasons.

To your original point though, why would you view Crosby as being disappointing and McDavid not if you think McDavid plays in a weaker generation?

 

[TheGuiminator]

I base performances on how they match up against a decent sample of their peers (Top 10 - 20 scorers). Perhaps there isn't an OV or Malkin to compete with McDavid but using a larger sample eliminates this.

That being said, they show a similar dominance vs. their peers thru 4 seasons.

To your original point though, why would you view Crosby as being disappointing and McDavid not if you think McDavid plays in a weaker generation?

As I said in my OP, I expected Crosby to become a modern day Gretzky, so he was disappointing in that regard.

 

[Big Phil]

Just the injuries in 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2013 come to mind. Could it have added to 4 more Art Ross Trophies? Well I think 2011 and 2013 are almost certain locks that they would have been however the other two he'd have just been in the mix.

Those are the disappointments. But 2013 has been so long ago and as time has gone on Crosby up until this season has been incredibly healthy. You can nitpick a bit and say that after 2014 he could have snagged another Hart/Ross somewhere along the line but I still don't think it matters a whole lot as his complete game had rounded out by then and his playoff resume improved. Hard to complain that there isn't another Art Ross in there when you added two more Cups.

That being said was Crosby capable of winning more awards? I think so, and minus some untimely injuries he does do it as well. Look at 2013:

PPG
Crosby - 1.56
St. Louis - 1.25
Stamkos - 1.19

75% of the season is played by Crosby, so it is pretty safe he keeps much of the same lead. He was just on fire that year. Or in 2011.

PPG
Crosby 1.61
D. Sedin - 1.27
St. Louis - 1.21

I am not the type who rewards PPG as if it is for a whole season but more of a "what if" thing. So those seasons are what they are, but yeah who knows.

That's really it, at the end of his career we'll really have to seriously evaluate how close this guy is to the top (after the big 4) if not at the top.

 

[wetcoast]

As I said in my OP, I expected Crosby to become a modern day Gretzky, so he was disappointing in that regard.

Well it's also very likely that a modern day Gretzky wouldn't become one as well.

 

[alko]

That has a clear answer: Injuries.

They affected Crosby way more, that they should. Actually, he had only 2 Art Ross. For his reputation it is not enough.