Locker Clean Out Day

[SensibleGuy]

Who's absolving him of his awful performances? The media?

Yeah, some of the media, lots of the Pavelec fans who call in on 1290. It comes up all the time..."I don't understand why some people seem to think Pav is such a bad goalie - he got us into the playoffs last year!"

Even some of the talk in this thread. Afaic, there is almost no reason to even mention the last month of last season. Pav was good. He didn't "get us into the playoffs." He helped, but no more than any number of other factors last season...and for most of the season he was just classic Pav.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Yeah, some of the media, lots of the Pavelec fans who call in on 1290. It comes up all the time..."I don't understand why some people seem to think Pav is such a bad goalie - he got us into the playoffs last year!"

Even some of the talk in this thread. Afaic, there is almost no reason to even mention the last month of last season. Pav was good. He didn't "get us into the playoffs." He helped, but no more than any number of other factors last season...and for most of the season he was just classic Pav.

I don't see anyone in this thread absolving him of his poor performance over the years. I do see people discussing the intricacies of quality starts.

 

[SensibleGuy]

Yes, arguing QS and Sv% and blah blah blah. My point is that that argument is over. at this point, there really isn't any debate to be had about Ondrej Pavelec. It doesn't matter. The issue now is the future and we can break Pavs career down in any manner we want but the end result is the same - he isn't good enough and we need to move on. The fact that his hot streak is mentioned at all (including in this thread) is ludicrous because as nice as it was, it ended up being meaningless and it wasn't really the heroic effort it's made out to be...

 

[garret9]

That has to be the most contrived anti-Pavs argument ever! What a sneaky devil he was for using shutouts to artificially boost his save percentage!

I don't think anyone is saying that his late spurt should have been discounted.

I'm just pointing out how bad he was through the bulk of the season, which created the necessity for the Jets to win those games.

Anyways, this is really getting side tracked from the original topic. I really only made a passing remark despite because it is what I believe and what 3 different stats tell me.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Yes, arguing QS and Sv% and blah blah blah. My point is that that argument is over. at this point, there really isn't any debate to be had about Ondrej Pavelec. It doesn't matter. The issue now is the future and we can break Pavs career down in any manner we want but the end result is the same - he isn't good enough and we need to move on. The fact that his hot streak is mentioned at all (including in this thread) is ludicrous because as nice as it was, it ended up being meaningless and it wasn't really the heroic effort it's made out to be...

It's a discussion forum - there's nothing wrong with discussing the intricacies of his poor play. Diving deeper into his numbers does not somehow dismiss his failings. I find it interesting, personally.

I will also be happy to NEVER discuss him again when he's no longer part of this franchise.

 

[Whileee]

I don't think anyone is saying that his late spurt should have been discounted.

I'm just pointing out how bad he was through the bulk of the season, which created the necessity for the Jets to win those games.

Anyways, this is really getting side tracked from the original topic. I really only made a passing remark despite because it is what I believe and what 3 different stats tell me.

Agree, but the concept of QS was interesting to look at. Just curious... did they win despite both Pavs and Hutch? Hutch didn't set the world on fire with his QS%, and as I pointed out earlier, the Jets won a disproportionately high number of games in which Hutch failed to deliver a QS.

As for underachieving this year, I thought that Wheeler's interview on H&L was interesting. He noted that this year they were "missing a timely save or goal" here and there. First time I've heard a player acknowledge they didn't always get the goaltending they needed. It's how I've always felt about Pavs (and increasingly about Hutch). Pavs just doesn't seem to make the saves the team needs at crucial points in the game. I know that from a stats perspective it shouldn't matter, but within each game, it seems that an untimely goal against can turn the tide, and too often for the Jets that's what happens. It's a bad goalie who doesn't perform well enough at critical junctures.

 

[Gm0ney]

The ups and downs of Pavelec over the last 2 seasons:

2014-15, October-March: .909 (37 games/980 shots)
2014-15, March-April Hot Streak: .949 (13 games/297 shots)
2014-15/2015-16 Since then: .902 (37 games/1052 shots - includes 2014-15 playoffs)

SV% over entire period: 0.911 (87 games, 2329 shots)

A hot streak bookended by 2 much longer periods of meh. Bleh, even...

The good news is that it sounds like Chevy's ready to move on. I hope he really runs with the moving-on thing.

 

[Board Bard]

Let me guess:

"process"
boathouse reno talk
getting really mad when they talk about Pavelec

+ (100 x "obviously) + (200 x "certainly") + (300 x "again") = garbage

 

[JetsFan815]

Let me guess:

"process"
boathouse reno talk
getting really mad when they talk about Pavelec

Can't win here even when you try to give Chevy some credit

 

[Whileee]

Listened to the interviews with Maurice, Chevy and Chipman. They seem like pretty sensible professionals that want to win and have a plan.

 

[KingBogo]

Listened to the interviews with Maurice, Chevy and Chipman. They seem like pretty sensible professionals that want to win and have a plan.

Yep. They are all on the same page. Anyone expecting a change of direction will be very very frustrated.

 

[Evil Little]

Can't win here even when you try to give Chevy some credit

Finally listened.

Some interesting things I took:

-Stated outright that Maurice had the chance to bring in his own coaching staff when hired, then again that summer, then again last summer when Vincent and Huddy's deals expired.
-Reading between the lines, Matthews is at the top of their board by a mile.
-They didn't even really look at Connor for last years draft because they didn't even consider the possibility of him falling that far. Which means they didn't really try to move up, either.
-Maurice wasn't necessarily sold on Perreault to begin with (I think he said something like Maurice 'didn't really know how to use him'). Now, it's clear Maurice loves the little firestarter.

 

[csk]

Finally listened.

Some interesting things I took:

-Stated outright that Maurice had the chance to bring in his own coaching staff when hired, then again that summer, then again last summer when Vincent and Huddy's deals expired.
-Reading between the lines, Matthews is at the top of their board by a mile.
-They didn't even really look at Connor for last years draft because they didn't even consider the possibility of him falling that far. Which means they didn't really try to move up, either.
-Maurice wasn't necessarily sold on Perreault to begin with (I think he said something like Maurice 'didn't really know how to use him'). Now, it's clear Maurice loves the little firestarter.

I think that was pretty self evident. He started the first season between Lowry and Byguflien & didn't score much for a long time

 

[Eyeseeing]

Yep. They are all on the same page. Anyone expecting a change of direction will be very very frustrated.

So we should expect another mediocre season is that what we mean by not changing direction?
Serious question what plan are we talking about ?
Don't say D&D when does this plan say we are a playoff team ?
Has anybody given a definitive timeline or is this just political speak ?

 

[Whileee]

So we should expect another mediocre season is that what we mean by not changing direction?
Serious question what plan are we talking about ?
Don't say D&D when does this plan say we are a playoff team ?
Has anybody given a definitive timeline or is this just political speak ?

I think we can kind of figure it out based on the progress and timelines of the prospects. When will players like Scheifele, Trouba, Ehlers, Petan, Lowry, Connor, Hellebuyck, Dano, Armia, Morrissey be ready to be major contributors to the point of being a playoff team? Maybe next year if Ehlers takes a big step forward and Hellebuyck is a good #1 and players like Dano and Armia can be strong in third line roles. But they might take another season to get to that level. I'd guess they are a year or maybe two away. I also think that Chevy now has enough depth in prospects that we might see him move a young player or two for more quality in the lineup. He hinted at that in his interview with h&l. I'm a bit conflicted over whether I think he should make a move for a good vet vs. maybe taking a run at a high pick, assuming the Jets don't get a top 3 pick.

 

[Hunter368]

Listened to the interviews with Maurice, Chevy and Chipman. They seem like pretty sensible professionals that want to win and have a plan.

It's all about results in the end......if no results keep happening at some point any businessmen will make a change even if his heart says no.

 

[mcpw]

Listened to the interviews with Maurice, Chevy and Chipman. They seem like pretty sensible professionals that want to win and have a plan.

yeah, that's the strange part. Well spoken, have a plan, sound intelligent, competent...

...and yet, these are the people responsible for Pavelec's and Stuart's contracts and icetime.

Like listening to a genius pianist, knowing that just yesterday, he smeared his feces all over the piano and they had to restrain him.

**** I sometimes hate this franchise.

 

[Gil Fisher]

yeah, that's the strange part. Well spoken, have a plan, sound intelligent, competent...

...and yet, these are the people responsible for Pavelec's and Stuart's contracts and icetime.

Like listening to a genius pianist, knowing that just yesterday, he smeared his feces all over the piano and they had to restrain him.

**** I sometimes hate this franchise.

They were clearly not focussed on optimizing the roster, but more on building the system. Roster decisions were more arbitrary and reflected rewarding players who wanted to stay here and be good organizational soldiers.

Now that the system is filled out, roster decisions will become more about merit, from what they are saying.

 

[KingBogo]

So we should expect another mediocre season is that what we mean by not changing direction?
Serious question what plan are we talking about ?
Don't say D&D when does this plan say we are a playoff team ?
Has anybody given a definitive timeline or is this just political speak ?

I think we can kind of figure it out based on the progress and timelines of the prospects. When will players like Scheifele, Trouba, Ehlers, Petan, Lowry, Connor, Hellebuyck, Dano, Armia, Morrissey be ready to be major contributors to the point of being a playoff team? Maybe next year if Ehlers takes a big step forward and Hellebuyck is a good #1 and players like Dano and Armia can be strong in third line roles. But they might take another season to get to that level. I'd guess they are a year or maybe two away. I also think that Chevy now has enough depth in prospects that we might see him move a young player or two for more quality in the lineup. He hinted at that in his interview with h&l. I'm a bit conflicted over whether I think he should make a move for a good vet vs. maybe taking a run at a high pick, assuming the Jets don't get a top 3 pick.

Pretty much agree with Whileee's response but will add it is far more difficult to stay committed to a long term vision and make the sacrifices along the way than it would be to cut and paste along the way throwing together a short term mediocre product. IMO we can trace back to the team we inherited 5 years ago. IMO it was horrible flawed. It had a good young core, but absolutely nothing in the system to support it and fuel it with new players coming up threw the system. Also 3 seasons of top 10 1st round picks all failed to develop into what their draft pedigree required to help drive the core. So while the organization tried to build up the prospect line the good, but not great, core started to age out and become much more expensive at the same time.

I think the organization left the hope open that somehow it could all mesh in a brief window, but it became obvious this was not going to happen. So you are left with a decision. Either try to save the current core group and spend resources (picks & prospects) to give them a chance to compete or you start moving out the old core and stacking the odds towards the future. I very valid criticism can be made this decision should have been made sooner. But it now has been made and I'm personally glad it is with a focus on the future not a short term hail Mary shot at a now window.

 

[Whileee]

Pretty much agree with Whileee's response but will add it is far more difficult to stay committed to a long term vision and make the sacrifices along the way than it would be to cut and paste along the way throwing together a short term mediocre product. IMO we can trace back to the team we inherited 5 years ago. IMO it was horrible flawed. It had a good young core, but absolutely nothing in the system to support it and fuel it with new players coming up threw the system. Also 3 seasons of top 10 1st round picks all failed to develop into what their draft pedigree required to help drive the core. So while the organization tried to build up the prospect line the good, but not great, core started to age out and become much more expensive at the same time.

I think the organization left the hope open that somehow it could all mesh in a brief window, but it became obvious this was not going to happen. So you are left with a decision. Either try to save the current core group and spend resources (picks & prospects) to give them a chance to compete or you start moving out the old core and stacking the odds towards the future. I very valid criticism can be made this decision should have been made sooner. But it now has been made and I'm personally glad it is with a focus on the future not a short term hail Mary shot at a now window.

Regarding the core from Atlanta, I think it also emerged that they needed to move two of the young core players ( Bogo and Kane). That might have been the impetus to fully reshape the team around a new core starting with Trouba and Scheifele. By that point, they perhaps also felt that their drafting had been good enough to make that move. Remember, everything is based on successful drafting, and it takes a few years to know how good your drafting has been. I like the approach they've used in the Kane and Ladd trades - acquire some more formed prospects that carry a bit less risk than picks, and also mesh with the age of your young core faster.

 

[KingBogo]

Regarding the core from Atlanta, I think it also emerged that they needed to move two of the young core players ( Bogo and Kane). That might have been the impetus to fully reshape the team around a new core starting with Trouba and Scheifele. By that point, they perhaps also felt that their drafting had been good enough to make that move. Remember, everything is based on successful drafting, and it takes a few years to know how good your drafting has been. I like the approach they've used in the Kane and Ladd trades - acquire some more formed prospects that carry a bit less risk than picks, and also mesh with the age of your young core faster.

Agreed with this. Those 2 trades landed a nice combination of already drafted prospects, drafted 16th, 27th and 31st in their draft years as well as 2 additional 1st round picks at 25 and likely 24-30. This is 5 additional potential future pieces added over 1 1/2 years. Finally we have seen an acceleration towards the future.

 

[Board Bard]

yeah, that's the strange part. Well spoken, have a plan, sound intelligent, competent...

...and yet, these are the people responsible for Pavelec's and Stuart's contracts and icetime.

Like listening to a genius pianist, knowing that just yesterday, he smeared his feces all over the piano and they had to restrain him.

**** I sometimes hate this franchise.

Chevy's well spoken? Man, that's a new one. Or should I say, again, certainly, that's a new one.

Maybe Chipman and Mo are well spoken, although I'd call it more glib, like car salesmen.

 

[Board Bard]

-Maurice wasn't necessarily sold on Perreault to begin with (I think he said something like Maurice 'didn't really know how to use him'). Now, it's clear Maurice loves the little firestarter.

But he knows how to use Thorburn and Stuart. Yeah, that's a coach. He should just change his name to Jack Adams and be done with it.

 

[Duke749]

But he knows how to use Thorburn and Stuart. Yeah, that's a coach. He should just change his name to Jack Adams and be done with it.

What's the point of this post? I think this whole board is on agreement with the misuse of those two.

 

[CaptainChef]

What's the point of this post? I think this whole board is on agreement with the misuse of those two.

If the whole board is convinced these two are being misused & we're constantly struggling with taking too many penalties and an atrocious PP & PK, how is it that Maurice is still viewed as a pretty good coach by many?