Linden "Playoff Performer?" Vey - Part III

[Scurr]

Vey is going to be like every other "small" forward to try and crack the NHL... he has to put up points. I think he can.

 

[Scurr]

IMO Vey acquitted himself much better defensively than he is getting credit for.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=50&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

It's his ability to create shots for himself and his teammates that needs to improve the most.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...50&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=F60&sortdir=DESC

I'm sure he'll be better defensively with more experience. His skill set should allow him to create more with more experience, too.

 

[Diamonddog01]

IMO Vey acquitted himself much better defensively than he is getting credit for.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=50&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

It's his ability to create shots for himself and his teammates that needs to improve the most.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...50&teamid=29&type=corsi&sort=F60&sortdir=DESC

I'm sure he'll be better defensively with more experience. His skill set should allow him to create more with more experience, too.

Yup. Here's a good article that discusses this:

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2015/04/14/brad-richardson-for-linden-vey-is-not-a-defensive-upgrade/

"That means that Vey’s defensive performance was about what we would expect from an average NHL player, while Richardson underperformed, giving up more shot attempts against than expected. If Vey’s lost puck battles and lack of physicality were truly hurting the Canucks defensively, we’d expect to see it showing up in his possession statistics."

 

[MS]

The guy literally showed nothing over the last 60 games of the season once he wasn't getting spoonfed #1 PP minutes. Looked like a softer Andrew Ebbett, at best.

He didn't have an 'ok rookie season' and he didn't 'show potential'. He was literally an AHL player masquerading as an NHL player for the last 5 months of the season. Just invisible, night after night. Too small. Too slow. Overmatched defensively.

He had 1 primary assist in his last 45 games this year. Think about how bad that is for a guy with his icetime and supposed skillset. And he was doing this while providing John Scott-level SOG totals. And being poor defensively. And contributing nothing on faceoffs, or the PK, or physically, or anywhere else.

Scoring 25 points as a rookie in that sort of icetime with poor defensive play and no intangibles isn't some sort of feat. There are literally dozens (hundreds?) of small, soft players in the AHL or Europe (Cal O'Reilly, Schroeder, Ebbett, Tambellini, Conacher in our system just in the last couple years) who can score at that rate in those minutes.

All we should be doing with this player right now is seeing if a bad, thin team (Arizona, Carolina) would give us a 5th or 6th round pick for him.

 

[PM]

We wasted well over 100 minutes of powerplay time (mostly first unit) on this guy while better players were left fighting for scraps. And even after spoon-feeding him those minutes all year we decide to scratch him for the majority of the playoffs. I got nothing against the guy personally but if Willie can't help himself around him then one of them needs to go, preferably both.

 

[ginner classic]

The guy literally showed nothing over the last 60 games of the season once he wasn't getting spoonfed #1 PP minutes. Looked like a softer Andrew Ebbett, at best.

He didn't have an 'ok rookie season' and he didn't 'show potential'. He was literally an AHL player masquerading as an NHL player for the last 5 months of the season. Just invisible, night after night. Too small. Too slow. Overmatched defensively.

He had 1 primary assist in his last 45 games this year. Think about how bad that is for a guy with his icetime and supposed skillset. And he was doing this while providing John Scott-level SOG totals. And being poor defensively. And contributing nothing on faceoffs, or the PK, or physically, or anywhere else.

Scoring 25 points as a rookie in that sort of icetime with poor defensive play and no intangibles isn't some sort of feat. There are literally dozens (hundreds?) of small, soft players in the AHL or Europe (Cal O'Reilly, Schroeder, Ebbett, Tambellini, Conacher in our system just in the last couple years) who can score at that rate in those minutes.

All we should be doing with this player right now is seeing if a bad, thin team (Arizona, Carolina) would give us a 5th or 6th round pick for him.

He's an ideal candidate to ship out for any pick we can get for him.

Vey, Markstrom, Stanton and Weber for Gormley.

 

[Tinhorn1]

Some interesting and quite contrasting takes. It seems that even the optimists see potential for only a 40-pt player, which is still a good player, of course-- but I can see why people tend to view him negatively if that's his upside. Undersized 40-pt players are simply unexciting, although you would love that from your third line and accept it on your second.

For some perhaps irrational reason, I'm going to hold out hope for him to be more. Seems he truly was a dominant--not merely a very good--player at the AHL level, and he is still pretty young.

 

[PM]

I'm pretty sure that Vey's best AHL season was between Tyler Toffoli and Tanner Pearson, two high quality prospects that quickly found themselves on the second line of a cup winning team. I'm not saying that all of Vey's AHL production is due to these guys but I'd attribute a large portion of it to them.

Interestingly, Manchester (LA) has another similar prospect to Vey on the way in Jordan Weal who has gone almost a point per game over the past two seasons down there. Also, he's from North Van which probably means we will try to trade for him at some point. If things go the Comets way we may get a good look at him soon enough.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Some interesting and quite contrasting takes. It seems that even the optimists see potential for only a 40-pt player, which is still a good player, of course-- but I can see why people tend to view him negatively if that's his upside. Undersized 40-pt players are simply unexciting, although you would love that from your third line and accept it on your second.

For some perhaps irrational reason, I'm going to hold out hope for him to be more. Seems he truly was a dominant--not merely a very good--player at the AHL level, and he is still pretty young.

There's definitely cause for optimsim. For historical context / perspective:

1st year in the Dub: 0.35 ppg
2nd year in the Dub: 1 ppg

1st year in the AHL: 0.58 ppg
2nd year int he AHL: 0.9 ppg

1st year in the NHL: 0.32 ppg (13:10 toi/g)
2nd year in the NHL: ???

His 2nd year year in the dub he jumped 0.65 ppg, his 2nd year in the AHL he jumped 0.32 ppg. Were he to jump 0.32 ppg next year we'd be looking at about 50 points. Probably won't go that high. But I could see 40 points - which will largely depend on ice-time and also the Canucks offense next season.

Anders Lee played 14:23 and put up 41 points, Reilly Smith played 15:24 per game and put up 40 points.

We'll see how things go.

 

[iceburg]

Have you got a woe is Jim Benning post for every thread?

Hahahaha, I was on a roll this morning!

My question to the people who feel Vey has 2C upside, what kind of team do you think plays Vey at 2C?

IMO, it's not one that has a chance to win the Cup. I'm sure he can reach 40 points, he wasn't far off this season, but he'd need spoonfed PP time and optimal linemates, but a team with him at 2C is likely a lottery team.

If Vey is to be a legitimate 2C option he will need to significantly improve his strength and overall defensive game. He needs to be stronger on the puck and not avoid battles. We saw the battle in flashes this past year but way more often than not he avoided the tough areas.
Again, I think with a little more experience and a lot more core strength, he can do it.

 

[Scurr]

I'm pretty sure that Vey's best AHL season was between Tyler Toffoli and Tanner Pearson, two high quality prospects that quickly found themselves on the second line of a cup winning team. I'm not saying that all of Vey's AHL production is due to these guys but I'd attribute a large portion of it to them.

Interestingly, Manchester (LA) has another similar prospect to Vey on the way in Jordan Weal who has gone almost a point per game over the past two seasons down there. Also, he's from North Van which probably means we will try to trade for him at some point. If things go the Comets way we may get a good look at him soon enough.

On the flip side of that... his most common line mate this season was Derek Dorsett.

 

[PM]

On the flip side of that... his most common line mate this season was Derek Dorsett.

During even strength. He still got well over 100 minutes on the powerplay, mostly with our best players (Sedins and Vrbata).

 

[arsmaster*]

If Vey is to be a legitimate 2C option he will need to significantly improve his strength and overall defensive game. He needs to be stronger on the puck and not avoid battles. We saw the battle in flashes this past year but way more often than not he avoided the tough areas.
Again, I think with a little more experience and a lot more core strength, he can do it.

I don't think it's an unwillingness with Vey, I just think he's so incredibly easy to neutralize in those high traffic/heavy board battles because he's just so weak.

I also think at 23, you either have this strength or you don't. He's the same size as Jannik Hansen who is also the same size as Mason Raymond, yet one guy is just a lot stronger and better.

I think he's too passive as a player, but I don't think he shied away tons, he's just easily nullified.

 

[opendoor]

There's definitely cause for optimsim. For historical context / perspective:

1st year in the Dub: 0.35 ppg
2nd year in the Dub: 1 ppg

1st year in the AHL: 0.58 ppg
2nd year int he AHL: 0.9 ppg

1st year in the NHL: 0.32 ppg (13:10 toi/g)
2nd year in the NHL: ???

His 2nd year year in the dub he jumped 0.65 ppg, his 2nd year in the AHL he jumped 0.32 ppg. Were he to jump 0.32 ppg next year we'd be looking at about 50 points. Probably won't go that high. But I could see 40 points - which will largely depend on ice-time and also the Canucks offense next season.

Anders Lee played 14:23 and put up 41 points, Reilly Smith played 15:24 per game and put up 40 points.

We'll see how things go.

That's not really a pattern, that's the development of a player. If guys don't improve in the lower leagues they don't move up.

And improvement doesn't just happen year to year. In the AHL he was a 0.49 pts/g player over the first 3 months and a 0.72 pts/g one over the last 3 months of his rookie year. He got better as the season went on as he adjusted to pro hockey.

In the NHL on the other hand, he put up a paltry 11 points over his final 50 games and looked worse as the year went on. Had he not been gifted #1 PP time with the Sedins by his buddy of a coach, he'd probably be looking at a 15-20 point season with the 3rd fewest shots/60 minutes of the 360 regular forwards in the NHL.

 

[Scurr]

That's not really a pattern, that's the development of a player. If guys don't improve in the lower leagues they don't move up.

And improvement doesn't just happen year to year. In the AHL he was a 0.49 pts/g player over the first 3 months and a 0.72 pts/g one over the last 3 months of his rookie year. He got better as the season went on as he adjusted to pro hockey.

In the NHL on the other hand, he put up a paltry 11 points over his final 50 games and looked worse as the year went on. Had he not been gifted #1 PP time with the Sedins by his buddy of a coach, he'd probably be looking at a 15-20 point season with the 3rd fewest shots/60 minutes of the 360 regular forwards in the NHL.

I don't think that's accurate. He started the year sub-replacement level at center, gained some traction when he was moved to the wing, took another step back when moved back to center and then ended the year playing pretty well at center. Definitely much improved from his first stint to start the season.

During even strength. He still got well over 100 minutes on the powerplay, mostly with our best players (Sedins and Vrbata).

I thought he played pretty well in that role all things considered. He certainly needs to find a way to produce, though, or he's not going to hang around.

 

[arsmaster*]

The Dub numbers look nearly identical for any player ever drafted into the NHL. They provide ZERO insights. It's not just common, it's nearly every 16 year old junior player ever, if they're good enough to stick at 16, they're going to be improved at 17. They don't tell us some magical trend.

treating his first year in the NHL, like it someway compares to being a 16 year old in the WHL is weird.

It's more like a 19 year old playing 3 seasons of Junior A hockey and then joining the WHL at 20, the gap isn't that big.

He was a 4th year PRO. Not a raw 20 year old first year pro.

 

[MS]

I don't think that's accurate. He started the year sub-replacement level at center, gained some traction when he was moved to the wing, took another step back when moved back to center and then ended the year playing pretty well at center. Definitely much improved from his first stint to start the season.

Say what?

His high water mark was the preseason.

Then he had a decent first 20-25 games, helped by his spoonfed PP time.

His last 50-55 games were utter dreck. Possibly the most insipid, invisible performance by a regular 10+ minute roster player I've ever seen on this team. Did nothing. Again, 1 primary assist in his last 45 games while generating SOG at the same rate as John Scott. And contributing nothing in terms of defense, faceoffs, or intangibles.

Without his 'dad' coaching the team, he would have been in the AHL by January.

 

[arttk]

I don't think that's accurate. He started the year sub-replacement level at center, gained some traction when he was moved to the wing, took another step back when moved back to center and then ended the year playing pretty well at center. Definitely much improved from his first stint to start the season.



I thought he played pretty well in that role all things considered. He certainly needs to find a way to produce, though, or he's not going to hang around.

Yes it is. His defensive game has actually gotten worse. He figured out that he didn't have they body to battle physically so he avoided it leading to a bunch of goals against us.
He has shown little improvements in terms of figuring how to work around his physical limitation, just kept on doing the same things and kept on getting pushed off the puck.

 

[ugghhh]

I'm not as down on Vey as most of the posters here.

He needs to improve his strength and speed. If he does, he's an NHL player moving forward.

If he doesn't, he isn't. Pretty black and white.

Skill wise, he's definitely got the hands, vision, decision making to play in the NHL.

I guess there is the concern that he's going to get minutes on this team next year due to the coaching staff, but that's a coaching issue, not a Linden Vey issue, imo.


edit: I wouldn't trade him for a late pick at this point. Bad asset management,

 

[Ho Borvat]

I'm not as down on Vey as most of the posters here.

He needs to improve his strength and speed. If he does, he's an NHL player moving forward.

If he doesn't, he isn't. Pretty black and white.

Skill wise, he's definitely got the hands, vision, decision making to play in the NHL.

edit: I wouldn't trade him for a late pick at this point. Bad asset management,

I really don't know where he fits on the team, but I agree we shouldn't count Linden Vey out yet.

As you mentioned, his biggest weaknesses are speed and strength. Vey finished the season healthy, and should get a good offseason in.

Speed/Strength is something he can work on pretty easily, the skills Vey does have are not so easy to teach. We just need to put Jannik Hansens engine into Linden Vey and you have yourself a good hockey player

 

[MS]

edit: I wouldn't trade him for a late pick at this point. Bad asset management,

Getting something for him is good asset management.

He's not very good, our 4th best center (at best), and will be quickly squeezed out of here by Cassels/McCann over the next two years.

He's easily replaced by any decent AHL center - Cal O'Reilly is basically the same player.

I really don't know where he fits on the team, but I agree we shouldn't count Linden Vey out yet.

As you mentioned, his biggest weaknesses are speed and strength. Vey finished the season healthy, and should get a good offseason in.

Speed/Strength is something he can work on pretty easily, the skills Vey does have are not so easy to teach. We just need to put Jannik Hansens engine into Linden Vey and you have yourself a good hockey player

Vey has been working on his speed and skating since he was 16. LA wouldn't have had him eating donuts and drinking beer in the summers - he would have had a dedicated offseason training program every year since 2009.

And he's still small and slow. There isn't anything he can do this summer that he wouldn't have been doing all along.

It's like when people say that 'some good coaching and direction can fix Sbisa' as if Anaheim hadn't been trying to give that to him for the previous 6 years.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Vey has been working on his speed and skating since he was 16. LA wouldn't have had him eating donuts and drinking beer in the summers - he would have had a dedicated offseason training program every year since 2009.

And he's still small and slow. There isn't anything he can do this summer that he wouldn't have been doing all along.

I don't claim to know a lot about Veys offseason regime (or anything), so I really can't comment on how serious he takes his offseasons.

My point is, these things are things that can be tangibly improved over an offseason.

Again, I don't know where Vey fits in, but his deficiencies are a lot easier to correct than trying to teach Luca Sbisa how to actually play hockey.

 

[arttk]

I don't claim to know a lot about Veys offseason regime (or anything), so I really can't comment on how serious he takes his offseasons.

My point is, these things are things that can be tangibly improved over an offseason.

Again, I don't know where Vey fits in, but his deficiencies are a lot easier to correct than trying to teach Luca Sbisa how to actually play hockey.

If he can't put on muscle during the time when a typical body grows, he is not going to suddenly put on muscles in the next 3 months.

 

[Scurr]

Yup. Here's a good article that discusses this:

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2015/04/14/brad-richardson-for-linden-vey-is-not-a-defensive-upgrade/

"That means that Vey’s defensive performance was about what we would expect from an average NHL player, while Richardson underperformed, giving up more shot attempts against than expected. If Vey’s lost puck battles and lack of physicality were truly hurting the Canucks defensively, we’d expect to see it showing up in his possession statistics."

Did anyone read this?

 

[iceburg]

I don't think it's an unwillingness with Vey, I just think he's so incredibly easy to neutralize in those high traffic/heavy board battles because he's just so weak.

I also think at 23, you either have this strength or you don't. He's the same size as Jannik Hansen who is also the same size as Mason Raymond, yet one guy is just a lot stronger and better.

I think he's too passive as a player, but I don't think he shied away tons, he's just easily nullified.

Hansen's an interesting comparison because he actually did get stronger at around 24 years old. His first couple of years he was falling down all the time...though that was partly due to his style of play, he did get knocked around quite a bit.