Let us Dream: Steven Stamkos to Toronto 2016/2017

[The Thin White Duke]

It's just due to age. When he had 61 points in 62 games at age 38 with Stamkos. You have convinced the board. A super point. Age….Well that explains it.

What does Gretzky and Sakic have to do with when St Louis reduced production when he was traded away, the production declined so much, that he retired. And Stamkos just kept on producing, 74 points with a linemate like Killorn as a winger.

Yep, that was a strong reply. Cool story bro.

Ok so if Stamkos "propped up" St Louis, why couldn't he do that with his linemates this year? Either the 61 in 62 was St Louis own doing, or Stamkos mysteriously lost the ability to make his wingers better this year.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Thank you, your lack of a rebuttal only reinforces this.

Proved both my points of Stamkos declining without St. Louis and how players in their late 30's rapidly decline in production. Killed 2 birds with one stone and I didn't even have to say anything

Age. Yep this is the sole reason you have come up to explain how St Louis went froma PPG with Stamkos on his line to 60 points in 93 games or .64PPG as a Ranger. And Stamkos was not the reason why St Louis's production dropped off the map.

Age.

The same age he was at 38 that had St Louis had 61 points in 62 games with Stamkos to just 8 points in 19 games as a Ranger after he was traded. Explain this if you can. He was the same age when these historical facts occurred. Shall I prepare myself for more excuses.

 

[Purity*]

Age. Yep this was the sole reason you have come up to explain how St Louis went froma PPG with Stamkos on his line to 60 points in 93 games or .64PPG as a Ranger.

Age.

The same age he was at 38 that had St Louis had 61 points in 62 games with Stamkos to just 8 points in 19 games as a Ranger after he was traded. Explain this. He was the same age when these historical facts occurred.

That's gonna happen when you get traded to a defensively-based team like NYR and don't have a talent like Stamkos to play with (Stepan and Brassard are good players but they definitely ain't Stamkos). As far as age being the "sole" reason, not quite. Combine it with the fact how players rapidly decline in their late 30's and how NYR ain't really the most offensively talented team out there, and you got yourself a clear decline in production.

We're gonna find out all the answers next year if Stamkos can get back to a PPG+. But he really shouldn't be all that worried about his regular season performance, if he ends up taking the backseat to Tyler Johnson again come playoff time, his case for making 11-12M will definitely take a hit.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Ok so if Stamkos "propped up" St Louis, why couldn't he do that with his linemates this year? Either the 61 in 62 was St Louis own doing, or Stamkos mysteriously lost the ability to make his wingers better this year.

good question.
maybe it only works with older people. his linemates were too young to be propped up by the magic of Stamkos.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

That's gonna happen when you get traded to a defensively-based team like NYR and don't have a talent like Stamkos to play with (Stepan and Brassard are good players but they definitely ain't Stamkos). As far as age being the "sole" reason, not quite. Combine it with the fact how players rapidly decline in their late 30's and how NYR ain't really the most offensively talented team out there, and you got yourself a clear decline in production.

We're gonna find out all the answers next year if Stamkos can get back to a PPG+. But he really shouldn't be all that worried about his regular season performance, if he ends up taking the backseat to Tyler Johnson again come playoff time, his case for making 11-12M will definitely take a hit.

It's gonna happen…okay age and it's gonna happen. Compelling. Fact is TB allowed 215 goals in the season St Louis was traded. Top 11 in the NHL. St Louis was already playing on a strong defensive team. Yet he dropped from 61 points in 62 games playing with Stamkos to only 8 in 19 games with NY after the trade and at 38.

TB allowed 211 GA this year. Top 5. It's gonna happen if Stamkos drops marginally to 74 points while playing for a stronger defensive team with 2 3rd liners as linemates.

Your turn.

 

[Stephen]

We're gonna find out all the answers next year if Stamkos can get back to a PPG+. But he really shouldn't be all that worried about his regular season performance, if he ends up taking the backseat to Tyler Johnson again come playoff time, his case for making 11-12M will definitely take a hit.

As Toronto fans wanting to get Stamkos, we can only hope for the TKO Line to keep improving and putting doubt into the minds of Tampa management.

 

[Purity*]

It's gonna happen…okay age and it's gonna happen. Compelling. Fact is TB allowed 215 goals in the season St Louis was traded. Top 11 in the NHL. St Louis was already playing on a strong defensive team. Yet he dropped from 61 points in 62 games playing with Stamkos to only 8 in 19 games with NY after the trade and at 38.

TB allowed 211 GA this year. Top 5. It's gonna happen if Stamkos drops marginally to 74 points while playing for a stronger defensive team with 2 3rd liners as linemates.

Your turn.

Callahan and Filppula are 3rd liners? They've actually historically produced as 2nd liners. And besides, that's what top-line players are supposed to do, elevate their teammates production. Kessel was able to take 2nd/3rd liners and produce a PPG, why can't Stamkos do the same?

And like Duke asked too, what happened to Stamkos' magical ability to make wingers better? Did he mysteriously lose it?

 

[bobermay]

as I've stated before -
for me, there is a difference between paying for that elite defenseman vs. paying for that elite scoring forward. It might sound like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth, but if I had to pay for one, I'd pay for the defenseman. Depending on defenseman, because quite frankly, I wouldn't be going to Subban and saying "here take all my money have fun." Doughty, yes, Keith, obviously, and down the line.

if Toews vs. Stamkos was available I'd choose Toews over Stamkos hands down.

but honestly, I'm tired of debating this for the most part. For where the Leafs are right now, I don't think them getting an elite player at maximum dollars is a good thing. I just don't. It would be different if it were a defenseman, or a more elite-defensive forward, because I think you could somewhat be a little patient. not for players like Stamkos that need to have a lot of good players around him to make him go. On top of things i've stated over and over again. I just personally feel it would not work well.

Obviously, other people feel different, so that's where I'm just going to say, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough... At the end of the day, we don't know which party would be 'right'.... but I'm just wondering... is this just a feeling, or do you have any facts to support your thoughts?

I really don't see comparison between Stamkos and Kessel to be honest (Other than both being elite snipers).... they play different positions (Center is more desirable), play different styles of hockey, and Stammer is on a whole other level (even with his injury).

IMO (Just my opinion).... you don't start a rebuild with wingers (I agree with you there)... A team should start with Goaltenders, Defense AND Center.... Every good teams have top Centermen. Scoring wingers are more-less a dime a dozen... elite centermen are not.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Callahan and Filppula are 3rd liners? They've actually historically produced as 2nd liners. And besides, that's what top-line players are supposed to do, elevate their teammates production. Kessel was able to take 2nd/3rd liners and produce a PPG, why can't Stamkos do the same?

What are the career highs in points for Callahan, Filppula, and Killorn? Age and it's gonna happen. Thus far I am not encouraged in your responses.

Yes 3rd liners. None of these guys would be top 6 players on the Hawks cup winning team.

Now let's get back to your answer for how come Stamkos continued to produce with let's say average linemates and St Louis dropped off the map without him.

St Louis the last season with Stamkos.
61 points in 62 games.

Without Stamkos as a Ranger.
60 points in 93 games

Stamkos without St Louis.
74 points in 82 games.

 

[Rielly4]

To me its very unlikely Stamkos comes here...I do know he loves Toronto though...

Dont get me wrong, if he leaves Tampa i definitely think he is ours 100%...

But i dont see him leaving Tampa, Yzerman wont let it happen.

For some reason the big UFA i could see happening that im really hoping for is Dougty in 2018 or 2019 or whenever that is.

 

[Purity*]

What are the career highs in points for Callahan, Filppula, and Killorn?

Filppula: 66 points (god damn those are 1st line numbers). Callahan: 54 points (most certainly 2nd line numbers). Killorn: 41 points (lower end 2nd line numbers). Yep, 1st and 2nd line numbers. How come the almighty Stamkos wasn't able to elevate them to replication? Could it be that he's not all that's cracked up to be?

Yes 3rd liners. None of these guys would be top 6 players on the Hawks cup winning team.

You're ****ing kidding right? Callahan-Fillpula-Kane would EASILY be Chicago's 2nd line. EASILY.

3rd liners my ass. Straight up making stuff up now are we?

 

[Stephen]

To me its very unlikely Stamkos comes here...I do know he loves Toronto though...

Dont get me wrong, if he leaves Tampa i definitely think he is ours 100%...

But i dont see him leaving Tampa, Yzerman wont let it happen.

For some reason the big UFA i could see happening that im really hoping for is Dougty in 2018 or 2019 or whenever that is.

I hope its Stamkos, but the player I think is quite likely to come back is Tyler Seguin.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Fair enough... At the end of the day, we don't know which party would be 'right'.... but I'm just wondering... is this just a feeling, or do you have any facts to support your thoughts?

that's true. we'll never know unless it happened.
And no - it's just a feeling I have. sometimes it's on the nose and sometimes it's me just overthinking things which I am prone to do.


I just don't think it sits right to have a Stamkos to our team as it is right now. not for the term he asked for or anything like that. I think mostly due to the way he plays.

I really don't see comparison between Stamkos and Kessel to be honest (Other than both being elite snipers).... they play different positions (Center is more desirable), play different styles of hockey, and Stammer is on a whole other level (even with his injury).

again I think it's just the situation that we're in.
we weren't v. good and in comes Kessel and no one really to play with

i think the situation will be the same. sure. we have higher end talent, but that's right now potential

as well as the uncertainty of the market. I just don't think that we're in a positon to be all "do it, screw the consequences."

I'd be less itchy if it were more a centre who was elite ala a Bergeron or a Kopitar, and it's not like "we're wasting their prime goal-scoring years." it's more we're focusing on other things. it doesn't make sense, but it's really the best way i can explain it

ditto with if it was a defenseman.

IMO (Just my opinion).... you don't start a rebuild with wingers (I agree with you there)... A team should start with Goaltenders, Defense AND Center.... Every good teams have top Centermen. Scoring wingers are more-less a dime a dozen... elite centermen are not.

in that extent yes. elite centremen are not.

 

[Snow Dog]

I wonder what happens to Kadri when Stammer signs,we'll need his cap space.

 

[Stephen]

that's true. we'll never know unless it happened.
And no - it's just a feeling I have. sometimes it's on the nose and sometimes it's me just overthinking things which I am prone to do.


I just don't think it sits right to have a Stamkos to our team as it is right now. not for the term he asked for or anything like that. I think mostly due to the way he plays.

October 2016 is not "now," and Stamkos isn't Kessel.

 

[garce]

that's true. we'll never know unless it happened.
And no - it's just a feeling I have. sometimes it's on the nose and sometimes it's me just overthinking things which I am prone to do.


I just don't think it sits right to have a Stamkos to our team as it is right now. not for the term he asked for or anything like that. I think mostly due to the way he plays.




again I think it's just the situation that we're in.
we weren't v. good and in comes Kessel and no one really to play with

i think the situation will be the same. sure. we have higher end talent, but that's right now potential

as well as the uncertainty of the market. I just don't think that we're in a positon to be all "do it, screw the consequences."

I'd be less itchy if it were more a centre who was elite ala a Bergeron or a Kopitar, and it's not like "we're wasting their prime goal-scoring years." it's more we're focusing on other things. it doesn't make sense, but it's really the best way i can explain it

ditto with if it was a defenseman.



in that extent yes. elite centremen are not.

And again this whole thing is predicated on one thing and one thing only, does Stamkos want to come home? I've heard fourth hand that he does.
Having said that I fully expect him to resign in Tampa before training camp, taxes alone dictate that he can maximize his finances there.
But if and its a big if he's the kind of guy who wants to be a big fish in the biggest hockey pond there is, that's also his home town, I don't care what shape our depth chart is I sign him and build around him. Especially if it's as a free agent.

 

[Stephen]

I wonder what happens to Kadri when Stammer signs,we'll need his cap space.

In the off chance that Tampa trades Stamkos, assuming to us, next trade deadline, I would be very comfortable sending Kadri back their way for Stamkos in a package. I also wouldn't mind moving his salary out for a defenseman if we signed Stamkos.

 

[Stephen]

And again this whole thing is predicated on one thing and one thing only, does Stamkos want to come home? I've heard fourth hand that he does.
Having said that I fully expect him to resign in Tampa before training camp, taxes alone dictate that he can maximize his finances there.
But if and its a big if he's the kind of guy who wants to be a big fish in the biggest hockey pond there is, that's also his home town, I don't care what shape our depth chart is I sign him and build around him. Especially if it's as a free agent.

Yeah I think in the slim chance this situation develops you have to go and make a legitimate pitch for him.

 

[Daisy Jane]

October 2016 is not "now," and Stamkos isn't Kessel.

I never once said Stamkos is Kessel.
I said the situations is similar

And again this whole thing is predicated on one thing and one thing only, does Stamkos want to come home? I've heard fourth hand that he does.
Having said that I fully expect him to resign in Tampa before training camp, taxes alone dictate that he can maximize his finances there.
But if and its a big if he's the kind of guy who wants to be a big fish in the biggest hockey pond there is, that's also his home town, I don't care what shape our depth chart is I sign him and build around him. Especially if it's as a free agent.

okay.
i personally think that's hard to do if he is making 1/6th of our cap but i've stated this constantly though.

 

[Stephen]

I never once said Stamkos is Kessel.
I said the situations is similar

There's no similarity.

Kessel was brought in to be the franchise player in a trade that left the Leafs without any building blocks to grow with up with him.

Signing Stamkos as a free agent would be using money to bring in a young veteran to play with Rielly, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, Bracco, maybe Kadri, JVR and Bernier and our 2016 first.

 

[garce]

I never once said Stamkos is Kessel.
I said the situations is similar




okay.
i personally think that's hard to do if he is making 1/6th of our cap but i've stated this constantly though.

I understand your concern but having cap heavy hits is the price of having elite players. Many rejoiced at getting rid of Kessel and 6.75 of cap for what? Another 5 years and waiting to see if Nylander or Marner will be worth 10 mil? Or if Stamkos a established top player wants to come now and you don't want to tie up 10-12 million for the next 8?

 

[garce]

There's no similarity.

Kessel was brought in to be the franchise player in a trade that left the Leafs without any building blocks to grow with up with him.

Signing Stamkos as a free agent would be using money to bring in a young veteran to play with Rielly, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, Bracco, maybe Kadri, JVR and Bernier and our 2016 first.

Yes and then managing contracts with a multi year plan. Sacrificing talents you don't want to for maximum value. Chicago has mastered this so far but now that Kane and Toews monsters are kicking in it's going to get interesting. The key to me his maintaining the upper echelon talents while keeping a good level of secondary support. 3 and 4th liners and bottom pair D are increasingly dime a dozen and will mostly move around on short contracts.

 

[Cor]

It's likely why we sign Kadri to a 1 year deal.

If Stamkos comes? We can deal Kadri for help elsewhere.

If Stamkos doesn't? Sign Kadri to an appropriate long-term deal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And again this whole thing is predicated on one thing and one thing only, does Stamkos want to come home? I've heard fourth hand that he does.
Having said that I fully expect him to resign in Tampa before training camp, taxes alone dictate that he can maximize his finances there.
But if and its a big if he's the kind of guy who wants to be a big fish in the biggest hockey pond there is, that's also his home town, I don't care what shape our depth chart is I sign him and build around him. Especially if it's as a free agent.

I understand the emotion but decisions based on emotion often aren't good decisions. Cost is a very important consideration in this cap era, writing Stamkos a blank cheque would be imprudent and we would be likely to regret it before long. Stamkos for 10m a year for 5 years is one thing. 12m a year, 7 years with a NTC is another thing. There is a huge difference between those 2 things!

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Filppula: 66 points (god damn those are 1st line numbers). Callahan: 54 points (most certainly 2nd line numbers). Killorn: 41 points (lower end 2nd line numbers). Yep, 1st and 2nd line numbers. How come the almighty Stamkos wasn't able to elevate them to replication? Could it be that he's not all that's cracked up to be?



You're ****ing kidding right? Callahan-Fillpula-Kane would EASILY be Chicago's 2nd line. EASILY.

3rd liners my ass. Straight up making stuff up now are we?

Kane can even produce PPG with third liners. Stamkos, on the other hand, requires a good playmaker and if that's present, +60 goals is quite possible.