Speculation: Lehtinen, Zubov jersey retirement talk

[tjcurrie]

My guess is that if there were no looming lockout, and thus no subsequent rule changes, Hatcher would have been re-signed here. If that happens I think he's a shoe-in for number retirement.

Maybe this isn't fair at all, but on the face of it Hatcher is a case of a guy who left the team at 30 years old when he had his first real chance to cash in. Broken down negotiations in his case were a result of not being willing to really negotiate at all. I don't see how anybody can sit back and say "just give him what he wants" given the atmosphere of uncertainty at the time. How about the player be willing to at least talk about shorter contracts and see what kind of money was being offered. Just screams to me a lack of good faith negotiating, and THAT is why I can see someone justifying having some sort of hard feelings or whatever toward the way things ended.

If "whatever he wants" is just an extra year, you give it to him. I can see the worry about the CBA coming up, but there are certain players you give a little for. Supposing they were willing to go 4, what would have been the difference? Either way, they're going beyond the new CBA. If what they wanted to give him was just one year so they can re-negotiate AFTER the new CBA, that's just embarrassing and an insult to a guy like Hatcher who was a major contributor and just had a monster season. Had he demanded say 7 years x 7 or something like that, then that's right in to the "no way pal" territory and I'd look back at how swollen his head got and I would blame him.

We saw what happened to his knee in Detroit. That could have ended his career right then and there. Had it happened, his career was over, and he only had a one year contract, disaster. I don't blame him for wanting the security.

It does work both ways, it's nice to have both sides give a little and come to an agreement o a case could be made for and against either side, but I just think that when pay day comes up, he give special priority and a bit of leniency to your best employees. The ones that make your business go and have for years.

Players leave teams. Mark Messier asked to be traded out of Edmonton, Bobby Orr signed with Chicago (though being mislead by his agent), and Patrick Roy had his embarrassing moment buying his ticket out of Montreal - which in contrast to most departures is a black eye. They Ryan Smyth situation is fairly comparable. Both sides wanted to remain married to each other, but they were $$ apart - and not by a lot either. Edmonton just all of a sudden said, "Okay bud, we just traded you." and shocked everyone, including Smyth.

But again, Hatcher was wanting to stick around and didn't just snub the organization like Blake did. The two situations were compared so I was only explaining the difference to show that they're not comparable. So we can go back and forth about whose fault it was and who should have budged yada yada yada, I was just making a comparison as the two situations were and are different.

tj, you've convinced me on hatcher's jersey retirement merits, relative to lehtinen and zubov. excellent job!

for better or worse, it does appear that the how-he-left-the-team factor is being baked into general fandom thoughts, though. combine that with each player's post-stars history, and it's more relevant how influential the extracurricular stuff is. consensus seems to be lehtinen first and zubov second and hatcher questionable. lehtinen played his entire career for dallas and has been very active with the stars after retirement. zubov also ended his nhl career with dallas but has been largely invisible around the metroplex afterwards. and as discussed ad nauseum, hatcher left dallas for detroit and isn't involved around these parts lately.

i'd be okay with hatcher's jersey retirement. order still should be jere, then sergei, then derian.

Thank you. Makes me feel like my efforts haven't actually gone all to waste

And I'm okay with Jere being first. As I stated previously, if we HAVE to choose one, or someone goes first, then Jere does have that "played his whole career" factor. All three being equal, that would be the tie breaker.

All 3 deserve it, they're each on the same tier for this franchise, but I have no problem with Jere being 1st up. Not that the others are @ holes or anything, but he's that nice unassuming guy that you just want to show him, "Hey man, we appreciate you. Well done."

I put Nieuwendyk and Belfour on that next tier as far as "Dallas" players go. Both huge contributors in that window, but neither home grown, and both spent only a small portion of their careers here so their windows are smaller than the other 3 in question. Hull, same thing. He wasn't "the goalie", or "the captain", or "the best player", etc etc, and at the end of the day he'll always be remembered as a Blue.

 

[glovesave_35]

Nieuwendyk, Belfour, and Hull all fall into that "no way" category for me. All here for the best years but just didn't play here long enough for the honor.

 

[glovesave_35]

zubov also ended his nhl career with dallas but has been largely invisible around the metroplex afterwards.

His stint in the KHL as a player, then as an assistant coach and subsequent job with St. Louis as a Hockey Ops consultant might have something to do with that.

While we're on the topic of ranking those three guys, I'll toss out my opinion that Zubov is tops on that list given that he's probably the only one with a shot at being a Hall of Famer, and is most closely associated with one team - Dallas.

 

[tjcurrie]

Nieuwendyk, Belfour, and Hull all fall into that "no way" category for me. All here for the best years but just didn't play here long enough for the honor.

Yeah I'm pretty much with you there. On the personal side, I'd love to see Eddie especially get the honor, but just wasn't here for long enough. Maybe a couple more good years with us and he would be.

His stint in the KHL as a player, then as an assistant coach and subsequent job with St. Louis as a Hockey Ops consultant might have something to do with that.

While we're on the topic of ranking those three guys, I'll toss out my opinion that Zubov is tops on that list given that he's probably the only one with a shot at being a Hall of Famer, and is most closely associated with one team - Dallas.

Not to start a whole other debate, but I'm not sure I tie the two in (HOF and franchise importance). Not that Zubov wasn't or isn't important, damn rights he is.

If he ever does get in, it's likely the Mark Howe way. Wait a good 16 years. Bugs me that Scott Niedermayer was carried in on one of those Egyptian-type chair thingies while Canadian hockey fans fed him grapes, and Rob Blake is now in as well, yet zero consideration given to Zubov. Bogus.

 

[glovesave_35]

If he ever does get in, it's likely the Mark Howe way. Wait a good 16 years. Bugs me that Scott Niedermayer was carried in on one of those Egyptian-type chair thingies while Canadian hockey fans fed him grapes, and Rob Blake is now in as well, yet zero consideration given to Zubov. Bogus.

I know you and I agree on this as we've both taken part in some pretty stupid threads on the History of Hockey forum.

 

[tjcurrie]

I know you and I agree on this as we've both taken part in some pretty stupid threads on the History of Hockey forum.

Oh man. The idiocy. Whenever I get in to those ones I'm like, "glove! Where ya at?! Get in here!" haha. But yeah I've see us do the ol 2 vs the world over there. Ridiculous.

The thing I always laugh at is when one of us states how underrated he was/is and how overlooked he always was. Then some genius replies with his lack of votes when it comes to awards and All-Star Teams as some kind of proof of how great he wasn't. Um, sir, those are votes, that's exactly what we're saying.

I love going on that section and getting in to discussions, but it gets ridiculous some times. I'm all for giving players of the past their respect due, but on the Top 60 Defensemen list they had a guy like Hod Stuart ranked ahead of Zubov. Hod Stuart - he who played from 1899-1907 then died, playing all of about 50 pro games before the NHL was even a thing. Clearly he was better, and I have all the faith in the world that the participants in that vote have complete recollection or at least vast knowledge enough to make the distinction. Zubov never even made the list. Ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of brains over there, just gets a bit overboard with the history lovin' some times.

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

I've been apologizing to myself all day. Haven't been given forgiveness yet though. I'm holding out.

To be honest fellas, I'm getting tired of this one. I've said all I need to say. I value Hatcher a great deal, as I do the other two players. I think all 3 deserve the honor. That's my story and I'm s-s-s-s-s-s-s-stickin' to it.

Can we talk about something else now? glove, how are things over there? Rune, Piqued, Lobo, you guys doing okay? Anything new?

Not a problem really. It's a worthwhile discussion on Hatcher's number being retired. Still though, I'm not sure how anyone could have taken that as serious. The way it was worded could basically be taken as Kevin Hatcher being as good as Zubov, and just I can't express into words the amount of laughter that brings up. He was a pretty solid player, but not that good.

You might, if the other team in question isn't the player's actual "home town team", which Detroit was for Hatcher.

Hometown discount works for both actual hometown and the team that drafted you.

I suppose there are two trains of thought here.

1.Was Hatcher as valuable to us and did he contribute the same amount as the other two players?

My answer to that is absolutely yes. That's what I began arguing and that's why I say he deserves it as much as they do.

If you disagree, then the the next question should be moot.

2.Does him leaving put an asterisk beside his legacy?

This brings about an interesting question to me. Even if he re-signed that year, he could have been gone to another team before 5 years albeit with a shorter contract or being a buyout (Colorado did it with Foote) after the lockout. So even if he had just played that one extra year, would the feelings still be the same? How much longer would he have to have played for it to be a resounding "yes" from the majority of the fanbase on his number being retired?

 

[glovesave_35]

Hometown discount works for both actual hometown and the team that drafted you.

I must not be smart enough to figure out how that works when each is at work concurrently.

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

OK how about this, sometimes they are one in the same, sometimes they aren't.

 

[glovesave_35]

I just don't see how they can compete with one another. "Hockey hometown" and "real hometown" can both be situations where discounts are given, but how can those two both get hometown discounts if they're competing for the services of one player?

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

/shrug

I was never trying to talk about that situation or trying to go indepth into which one, or both, should get the discount.

 

[Cin]

Come back and see Hatcher being debated for retirement. Leaving thread.

 

[ColeJ]

derian hatcher is my absolute childhood idol... but he doesn't deserve his number retired.

zubov and lehtinen absolutely deserve it though.

 

[tjcurrie]

derian hatcher is my absolute childhood idol... but he doesn't deserve his number retired.

zubov and lehtinen absolutely deserve it though.

I'll never understand that train of thought by Stars fans, and I'll always disagree with it. He signed elsewhere at the tail end of his prime because management didn't want to commit 5 years. Doesn't make him less a Star or less vital to those winning years than Zubov or Lehtinen. The time gone by has jaded some people minds I believe. If you think signing elsewhere makes him less a Star, you're wrong. And if you think he wasn't as important as the other two, you're wrong there as well.

Word

 

[Klockis]

I'll never understand that train of thought by Stars fans, and I'll always disagree with it. He signed elsewhere at the tail end of his prime because management didn't want to commit 5 years. Doesn't make him less a Star or less vital to those winning years than Zubov or Lehtinen. The time gone by has warped some people minds I believe.

Not only Stars fans but the team as well.

He's not going to get his number retired.

 

[tjcurrie]

Not only Stars fans but the team as well.

He's not going to get his number retired.

That's a different situation. Had Lehtinen left back in 03, do you think they would have right away shelved his #26? Absolutely not. Same for Zubov. Hatcher kept playing. Had he been at the end of his career at that point and played say 1,200 games with us and that was his retirement, then they likely pack #2 away right then and there.

He may not get his # retired, call it politics or bitterness or whatever, but that doesn't mean he isn't as deserving as the other two. Absolutely he deserves it and there's no argument to say he doesn't, other than the fact that he went and signed elsewhere. Get over that. Your personal feelings mean squat towards a player's value.

I'm not going to argue this further, it's been beaten to a pulp already. But don't let time gone by and having the other two players more fresh in your memory jade what Hatcher is to this franchise and what he was for us back then. Games played and importance to us he's equal to the other two. No reason to put the other two on some higher pedestal. Period.

 

[glovesave_35]

He may not get his # retired, but that doesn't mean he isn't as deserving as the other two. Absolutely he deserves it and there's no argument to say he doesn't, other than the fact that he went and signed elsewhere.

Not to rehash this whole thing, but there are plenty of people who think Zubov and Lehtinen were better hockey players than Hatcher. You obviously disagree with that, but it is a justifiable stance even if you don't agree.

 

[tjcurrie]

Not to rehash this whole thing, but there are plenty of people who think Zubov and Lehtinen were better hockey players than Hatcher. You obviously disagree with that, but it is a justifiable stance even if you don't agree.

Sure there are, no doubt, but there are also plenty of people who think the opposite. Totally different styles of players, but none lesser of importance. In fact, you go back to Hatcher's days with us his importance was often argued as even more-so than the other two.

I'm not saying this is you, but some people look at sheer numbers, and obviously Hatcher isn't going to win that battle. It's like Rod Langway winning his two Norris trophies and coming in second to Gretzky in Hart voting. He was that important to the Caps, but looking back many people will look at stats and kind of scratch their heads, because intangibles and on ice stuff cannot be seen that way. At times the defensive guys get their dues, most of the time they don't. Hatcher is very deserving here.

So yeah, last word. I swear it this time.

 

[Ub the Bub]

That's a different situation. Had Lehtinen left back in 03, do you think they would have right away shelved his #26?

Had Lehtinen left in 2003 we wouldn't have this discussion since we wouldn't have considered him for jersey retirement then...

 

[ginblossoms]

... which i think is tj's point...

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

... which i think is tj's point...

I took it as just because Hatcher left in 03, doesn't mean his number would've been put away on the shelf right away for retirement (just as Lehtinen or Zubov's wouldn't of been).

Basically saying, just because Dallas allowed others to use his number, doesn't mean it isn't retireable for Hatch.

But I agree with Bub. If Jere or Zubie leave after the 2003 season, their numbers don't get retired either.

 

[piqued]

Finishing your career with a team is what takes a non-slam dunk case and puts it over the top.

 

[ck26]

I suppose there are two trains of thought here.

1.Was Hatcher as valuable to us and did he contribute the same amount as the other two players?

My answer to that is absolutely yes. That's what I began arguing and that's why I say he deserves it as much as they do.

If you disagree, then the the next question should be moot.

Disagree. Zubov brought something much more unique to that Cup team than Hatcher.

The team had a ton of leaders -- Nieuwendyk, Carbonneau, Keane, Ludwig -- and a ton of Alpha types -- Ludwig, Matvichuk, Verbeek, Belfour. Yes, Hatcher was THE guy, but the team was oozing the skills that Hatcher provided. To stay in the late 1990's, he was like Juan Gonzalez on those Rangers teams that had Will Clark, Rusty Greer, Pudge, Raphael Palmeiro, etc ... the best hitter of a group of great hitters. One big ace pitcher would be "more irreplaceable" ... and Zubov was "more irreplaceable."

There wasn't anybody else who could do what Zubov did for those teams. Zubov killed penalties and ran the PP that I don't think Hatcher even played on. Neither Sydor nor Chambers came close to replicating what Zubov could do.

It's a tiny small sample size, but they won the first 6 games of the '99 playoffs while Hatcher was suspended. Didn't miss a beat without him. I have a hard time believing that would have been the case had we been without Zubov in the '99 playoffs. It's nitpicky and I'm basically just arguing about what "valuable" means, but this is why Zubov > Hatcher in my book.

 

[ColeJ]

i'm not even saying he doesn't deserve it because he wasn't as important...

i guess i'm less strict on it than most of you guys. i give it a simple eyeball test.

can i picture someone wearing #2 for the stars, and not being outraged over it? yeah. even when it was fresh, i was okay with seeing willie mitchell wear my idol's #2 in the exact same sweater style that derian hatcher wore.

can i picture anyone wearing 26 or 56 for the stars, even in new uniforms that neither sergei or jere ever wore? no. i can stomach 26 more than 56, but both of them make me unhappy at the thought. didn't bother me at all to see others wear 20 or 25 or 10 or 16 or 22... but 26 and 56 seem like they're off limits.

it might have to do with the fact that both of them seem to have made it abundantly clear that they consider themselves dallas stars above all else. hatcher can't say that. he's as much flyer as star at this point, in my eyes. i don't judge him for that. it is rare for a player to be as loyal as both zubie and jere were. not even modano was as loyal, and not a single person here could get away with saying a single bad word about him.

it might also have to do with personal accolades. i understand hatcher had the deck stacked against him being a defensive defenseman... but zubov is the modano of the defense. he owns all the applicable records that modano has, and they won't fall easily. lehtinen wouldn't be in the argument if he wasn't so tied to the hip with the selke trophy disussion, and as robin to modano's batman.

they both just feel like they deserve banners. modano, lehtinen, and zubov span multiple eras of stars hockey together. they were absolute mainstays and building blocks of every dallas era except the victory green era. hatcher is synonymous with the cup era only. he is absolutely invaluable to that team and a rightful legend among stars players... but i don't feel he is disrespected at all by someone else wearing #2 for this franchise.

zubie and lehts would be.

 

[Cold Medicine]

Bugs me that Scott Niedermayer was carried in on one of those Egyptian-type chair thingies while Canadian hockey fans fed him grapes

I think it's called a Chaise longue.

The team had a ton of leaders -- Nieuwendyk, Carbonneau, Keane, Ludwig -- and a ton of Alpha types -- Ludwig, Matvichuk, Verbeek, Belfour. Yes, Hatcher was THE guy, but the team was oozing the skills that Hatcher provided...

It's a tiny small sample size, but they won the first 6 games of the '99 playoffs while Hatcher was suspended. Didn't miss a beat without him. I have a hard time believing that would have been the case had we been without Zubov in the '99 playoffs. It's nitpicky and I'm basically just arguing about what "valuable" means, but this is why Zubov > Hatcher in my book.

Yes, one third of the skaters (8 out of 24) on 1999 playoff team had worn a C at some point (Nieuwendyk, Hull, Keane, Verbeek, Hatcher, Skrudland, Carbonneau, Lidster), two more would eventually become captains (Modano and Langenbrunner), and then there was Ludwig who was assistant captain.

But Hatcher was 6'5, 235 pounds, and averaged 29 minutes a game. Missing him for the first 6 games might be okay, but he was absolutely needed for a deep playoff run that had some very long, very physical games. He took a lot of pressure off the smaller defenseman, Zubov included, when he played.

I'm not saying that his number should be retired, but I don't think you should undersell how important he was.