Speculation: Lehtinen, Zubov jersey retirement talk

[glovesave_35]

If they think that either Zubov or Leths should have their numbers retired, they should do both. Modano is clearly a class above them in terms of the overall package to the Dallas Stars organization. However, if we're using the same ambiguous parameters of contributing to the team, I think Zubov and Leths are at the same level, for different reasons of course, but a clear tier below Mo's level.

I disagree with Zubov being a cut below Modano if we're talking contributions on the ice. I would be a fool to argue Modano's worth to the organization being exactly the same as Zubov's, but in terms of who was the most important player on the ice during Zubov's 12 year tenure as a Star, Zubov is right there with Modano. Personally, I go with the defenseman in this situation. I realize I'm in the minority, but I know I'm not alone.

All of Modano's organizational contributions warrant his number being retired first, but in my mind Zubov was every bit the player Modano was, if not more. There is a debate there to be had, and because it's that close I don't see how a person could say that Zubov wasn't a good enough Star to get his number retired. There's not going to be another #56 for this organization anyways, give the guy a ****ing honor already. He was overshadowed and underrated league-wide in his playing days. It would be ludicrous for the organization to not acknowledge his contributions.

 

[glovesave_35]

Dallas also has far less cups/success than most of those teams.

Even if team success were a necessary factor, the only teams on that list with more Cups than the Stars are original 6 teams, one of which has only 2 Cups since post expansion, and both of those have come in the last 5 years.

The non-original 6 teams on the list haven't even won a Cup.

 

[piqued]

I disagree with Zubov being a cut below Modano if we're talking contributions on the ice. I would be a fool to argue Modano's worth to the organization being exactly the same as Zubov's, but in terms of who was the most important player on the ice during Zubov's 12 year tenure as a Star, Zubov is right there with Modano. Personally, I go with the defenseman in this situation. I realize I'm in the minority, but I know I'm not alone.

You're certainly not alone, I've always considered Zubov simply a better player than Modano.

 

[BeaverSports]

I think you're probably too young to have watched Zubov play on a nightly basis...because anyone who did recognizes how truly special he was. The dude was arguably one of the top 5 defensemen of his era. If he wasn't on Niedermayer's level he's no more than a smidge below it. The guy should be in the HOF. His number being retired should be a given in my book.

There's a reason he's not in the HHOF and it's not just because he played in Dallas. The man was a turnover machine and he was aided by playing on a strong team with good goaltending and defence all around. I can think of a lot of D-men I would have traded him for easily and I'm iffy on the number retirement there.

 

[hairylikebear]

Modano, Zubov, and Lehtinen are the main reasons hockey even has a foothold in Texas. Without the success of the 90s, who knows what could have happened to the team. Those three deserve their numbers retired for constructing this hockey fanbase in Dallas. Any future achievement by any Dallas Star is made possible by those three.

 

[TangoMcBride]

There's a reason he's not in the HHOF and it's not just because he played in Dallas. The man was a turnover machine and he was aided by playing on a strong team with good goaltending and defence all around. I can think of a lot of D-men I would have traded him for easily and I'm iffy on the number retirement there.

Honestly, this post isn't even worthy of a response.

 

[oconnor9sean]

There's a reason he's not in the HHOF and it's not just because he played in Dallas. The man was a turnover machine and he was aided by playing on a strong team with good goaltending and defence all around. I can think of a lot of D-men I would have traded him for easily and I'm iffy on the number retirement there.

I'm even on the side saying to at least wait a few years before thinking about retiring 26/56, but this is just ridiculous. Anyone with eyes could see that Zubov oozed talent, and produced.

 

[Dr GLU]

There's a reason he's not in the HHOF and it's not just because he played in Dallas.

The main reason would be that this is his first year of eligibility as he didn't officially retire from hockey (in the KHL) until 2011.

 

[Arno Dorian*]

I don't love the number retiring process in general. The Chicago Bears can't retire anymore they have retired so many.

I figure just retire jerseys. It's the same point, and I would imagine management would reserve certain numbers for strong prospect.

Either way, three in 20 years is fine.

 

[KiedisA]

Jere's team in Finland, Blues Espoo is retiring his number #10 in just over a month from now

The story is in Finnish but it's worth a click just for the pic alone HAH..
http://www.blues.fi/component/bluesnews/1378?view=uutinen

 

[piqued]

So there was a time he didn't look like an old man...

 

[Eskimo Spy]

Yes to both, and I'll be there cheering wildly for Lehts when it happens, still my all-time favorite Star.

 

[Cin]

Do it. Nobody should ever wear 26 or 56 ever again in Dallas. They couldn't ever be topped.

 

[tjcurrie]

I'm a stickler when it comes to jersey retirements. I wish the North Star jersey retirements were left in Minnesota.

As for 26/56, I'd probably say no to Zubie and maybe to Jere. Again, I'm tough when it comes to this, but I hate when teams retire too many numbers. It loses luster.

Agreed, or at least sent back when the Wild arrived ..

Nonsense.

Same franchise.

Broten, Goldsworthy, and Masterton played for the Stars, not the Wild.

The 1st American born player to score 100 points in a season did so in a Stars uniform, not a Wild uniform. All the admiration and respect Modano has for Broten for what he did before him and also while he was a youngster getting his feet wet with this franchise, and you don't think that counts?

How many points does our franchise all-time leader have, 1,050 or 1,359?

Anyways...

Hatcher's #2 deserves as much consideration as the other two. Slippery slope once you start retiring those guys.

The one that has something against the other two is that he played his entire career with us. Oh but wait, he was drafted while the franchise was still in Minnesota, so does he even count? Is his career moot? Does his goal in game 6 even count now? Do we have to replay that game??!!

But yes, these guys deserve it. Go scour the league and see who has their numbers retired. They'd be far, far from the bottom of the barrel. We could stand to retire all 3 Hatcher, Zubov, and Lehtinen, and we wouldn't be a low standard franchise in the least.

 

[TrillMike]

Not trying to start a debate, but as great as Hatcher was, I don't think he deserves his number retired. Lehtinen and Zubov? Absolutely.

 

[tjcurrie]

Boston
Terry O'Reilly - Good/decent player, good scrapper, popular like Steve Ott, no Cups.

Buffalo
Tim Horton - Played just 124 games with the franchise, but was killed in a car crash, so Masterton comparable.
Danny Gare
Rick Martin
Rene Robert

Colorado/Quebec
Adam Foote - Kind of our Derian Hatcher, though Hatcher was our captain and more dominant.

Edmonton
Al Hamilton - Interesting one, because Kevin Lowe's #4 isn't retired yet and he as a defenseman likely means more to the franchise. Only reason he isn't retired is because they already retired 6 from that era (Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr, Anderson)

Los Angeles
Rogatien Vachon

New Jersey
Ken Daneyko

NY Islanders
Clark Gillies
Bob Nystrom

NY Rangers
Adam Graves
Mike Richter

Philadelphia
Barry Ashbee - Career ending eye injury. 270 games with the franchise.

Phoenix/Winnipeg
Jeremy Roenick
Teppo Numminen
Keith Tkachuk

Pittsburgh
Michel Briere - 76 games, killed in a car crash.

St.Louis
Bob Gassoff - 245 games, 58 points, defenseman
Brian Sutter
Barclay Plager

Vancouver
Stan Smyl
Trevor Linden
Markus Naslund

Washington
Dale Hunter

None of those guys are "greats", none of them are "special", and most of them never won a thing.

Some of them are there mostly because they were Cup winners, besides that they were just good players - nothing more.

Some are retired because they either spent their entire careers with their respective franchise, or at least a good long while and were popular.

Some are retired simply because they were good players on teams that lacked anything else at that time. (See Vancouver)

And of course there are those that passed away prematurely and have been rightfully honored and remembered.


Now I'm not saying that none of these guys should have their jerseys in their respective teams rafters, but clearly the standard league-wide isn't just that of HOFers or all-time greats.

Can't retire just anyone who does anything good, but our retired numbers so far are well deserved given the criteria and so are the 3 in question (Hatcher, Zubov, Lehtinen)

 

[piqued]

Compared to the other 2, Hatcher played less games as a Star, was not as recognized league-wide, left the team on poorer terms, and was simply not as good of a hockey player (subjective opinion on my part but one I'm 100% sure of having watched all of their careers carefully). And the team already essentially made that call by reissuing his number.

 

[tjcurrie]

Not trying to start a debate, but as great as Hatcher was, I don't think he deserves his number retired. Lehtinen and Zubov? Absolutely.

Too bad sucka. The debate is on

I think what people have in their minds are Lehtinen and Zubov going out as Stars, and Hatcher going out a Wing then a Flyer.

That to me leaves an impression on people's minds, but shouldn't diminish contributions. Let's not forget how important he was to our successes those years. He was in fact our captain and leader, and besides Stevens probably the best shutdown defenseman in the game for a good while. Not many strictly defensive defensemen play in All-Star Games, make 2nd All-Star Teams, and get nominated for Norris trophies. He has a nice international career as well.

Adam Foote and Rod Langway (defense first Dmen) have their numbers retired with their franchises. Now Langway of course has two Norris trophies, but Hatcher was every bit as important to us - and on a Cup winner. I know up here during those playoff rounds as well as other playoff match-ups, after Modano it was Hatcher that opponents were fearful of a lot of the time.

 

[piqued]

Feared for an entirely different reason than Modano. Intimidation I don't think is grounds for number retirement. There's a reason why defensive defensemen don't typically receive those types of honors, and not just because they're unfairly ignored -- they just don't have the kind of impact on the game and their team's ultimate success that a dynamic offensive threat like Zubov does.

He may have been the Captain of a Cup winner, and I'm not saying he didn't bring leadership to the team, he certainly did, but that team was absurdly stacked with veteran, vocal leadership. The percentage of the leadership load that Hatcher had to pull himself (what an absurdly unquantifiable figure eh?) couldn't have been that strenuously high.

The Avalanche are also the poster children for over-exuberance when it comes to retirements.

 

[tjcurrie]

Compared to the other 2, Hatcher played less games as a Star, was not as recognized league-wide, left the team on poorer terms, and was simply not as good of a hockey player (subjective opinion on my part but one I'm 100% sure of having watched all of their careers carefully). And the team already essentially made that call by reissuing his number.

I strongly disagree with those two, and the leaving the team on poorer terms shouldn't mean anything. Though it does sway the way people view someone.

As I stated above, Hatcher was absolutely recognized league-wide. 2nd Team All-Star, All-Star Game, named to international teams, and nominated for a Norris. Any strictly defensive defenseman with that resume is certainly recognized league-wide. And like I also stated, when it came to playof match-ups he was right up there as a player opponents feared and had to game plan for - usually falling short. Up here he was hated, and that meant he was doing his job perfectly.

Saying he simply wasn't as good of a hockey player I would say is false. He wasn't as offensively gifted as Zubov was of course, nor Lehtinen, but he played a completely different role. He was typically given the bigger minutes and the tougher assignments, killed more penalties and faced more top lines compared to Zubov.

 

[tjcurrie]

Feared for an entirely different reason than Modano. Intimidation I don't think is grounds for number retirement. There's a reason why defensive defensemen don't typically receive those types of honors, and not just because they're unfairly ignored -- they just don't have the kind of impact on the game and their team's ultimate success that a dynamic offensive threat like Zubov does.

He may have been the Captain of a Cup winner, and I'm not saying he didn't bring leadership to the team, he certainly did, but that team was absurdly stacked with veteran, vocal leadership. The percentage of the leadership load that Hatcher had to pull himself (what an absurdly unquantifiable figure eh?) couldn't have been that strenuously high.

The Avalanche are also the poster children for over-exuberance when it comes to retirements.

Has more to do than intimidation. On-ice effectiveness is right up there.

Defense first defensemen just aren't as recognized. Period. They absolutely can have the same impact. Ask any player. Ask Hatcher's team mates and opponents. I mean, not all of them do and there are varying ranges of course, but special ones like Hatcher absolutely do. Game changer.

That entire team was leadership, but Hatch was the guy on the blueline. He set the tone. Zubov did his thing and I'm not diminishing what he did for us, I'm constantly in his corner for the HOF debate which he rightfully deserves. Hatcher killing Roenick before the end of the 98-99 reg season did wonders for the guys, if you hear them talk about it. Things like that make a huge difference. And just having a rock back there to yes intimidate, but also physically shut down opponents is incomprehensibly vital. We had something that not a lot of teams had and it benefited us greatly.

 

[tjcurrie]

To add to that pile of gibberish, most of the "experts" over on the History Of Hockey forum here choose Derian over brother Kevin, which I agree with.

That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong here, just kind of pointing out how much recognition he gets with fans from other bases. It's just rare for strictly defensive defensemen to get that. When they do, they're of another level. It's special.

 

[glovesave_35]

Hatcher was great for the Stars but personally I don't put him in the same category as Zubov or Lehtinen. Maybe retiring with the franchise has something to do with it. Maybe the way that Hatcher left the organization had something to do with it. Mostly, I just think the other two were better and more gifted hockey players than Hatcher was.

Honestly, the debate seems like a moot point because the Stars re-issued #2 just about as soon as they could fairly quickly, and #56 and #26 have been kept noticeably vacant. The decision as far as "class" of player or importance to the organization has already been made.

 

[piqued]

First of all, I said he wasn't AS recognized league-wide, which is true, not that he wasn't recognized league-wide.

Saying he was given the tougher assignments is something unprovable without data from the era and not an assertion I accept at face value.

Players' opinions on what type of player has the most impact on the game are anecdotal, incomplete, and not particularly relevant to me.

Furthermore I never saw Hatcher as some sort of complete rock or impeccable defensive stalwart. He made his fair share of gaffes and turnovers, often without the attending rewards that players like Sydor and Zubov offered for their risk-taking.

I would agree that Derian was easily better than his brother -- I don't see how that factors into the number retirement discussion.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

The second Hatcher chose Detroit over Dallas, he lost his number being retired.