Legends Tournament: Level A, round 3: Ovechkin Versus Crosby

[Steven Toast]

Your argument is that Crosby played at a 65 point / 21 goal pace as a minus player - and this somehow makes a big difference?

Come on I'm sure you can read, hes saying that Crosby has a far more impressive playoff resume. Something i'm sure all but the more ardent Ovechkin homers would agree with.

 

[Khomutov]

So this changes the otherwise clear edge that Crosby has over OV in the playoffs for their career?

Talk was about last year playoffs.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Come on I'm sure you can read, hes saying that Crosby has a far more impressive playoff resume. Something i'm sure all but the more ardent Ovechkin homers would agree with.

Ovechkin is superior to Crosby on a per game basis - has 1 less goal in 36 fewer games. The primary difference between them is Crosby had Malkin for his entire career. It's a huge advantage.

 

[Steven Toast]

Ovechkin is superior to Crosby on a per game basis - has 1 less goal in 36 fewer games. The primary difference between them is Crosby had Malkin for his entire career. It's a huge advantage.

Read literally any other stat line from their respective playoff careers, Crosby is far and away better. Ovechkin is under a ppg in playoff production.

If you want to stat grab check this out,

Between 2010-2017 Ovi went 31-29-60 in 76 playoff games. Thats a near deacade, with a pretty large sample size where he was playing at a 33 goal, 65 point pace. Crosby meanwhile has scored at 93 point pace in the playoffs.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Read literally any other stat line from their respective playoff careers, Crosby is far and away better.

Ovechkin has 540 hits in 128 games played.
Crosby has 163 hits in 164 games played.

If you want to stat grab check this out,

Between 2010-2017 Ovi went 31-29-60 in 76 playoff games. Thats a near deacade, with a pretty large sample size where he was playing at a 33 goal, 65 point pace. Crosby meanwhile has scored at 93 point pace in the playoffs.

Your point is that if you take Ovechkin's worst stretch, it doesn't compare favorably with Crosby's average? Using the word "meanwhile" there is flat out wrong in this instance. During that particular "meanwhile" Crosby was producing at a 27 goal / 78 point pace.

There is no reason to cherry pick and use a false comparison like that unless you believe a true comparison doesn't make your point.

Here, I'll take a stab at your ridiculous method of comparison:

From 2011 to 2016 Crosby produced at a 25 goal pace and was +/- minus 11. That's over half a decade and a pretty large sample size where the Penguins were getting outscored at even strength when Crosby was on the ice. "Meanwhile" Ovechkin has scored at a 42 goal pace and is +/- plus 11 - meaning the Capitals were winning at ES when he was on the ice.

 

[Steven Toast]

Ovechkin has 540 hits in 128 games played.
Crosby has 163 hits in 164 games played.



Your point is that if you take Ovechkin's worst stretch, it doesn't compare favorably with Crosby's average? Using the word "meanwhile" there is flat out wrong in this instance. During that particular "meanwhile" Crosby was producing at a 27 goal / 78 point pace.

There is no reason to cherry pick and use a false comparison like that unless you believe a true comparison doesn't make your point.

Here, I'll take a stab at your ridiculous method of comparison:

From 2011 to 2016 Crosby produced at a 25 goal pace and was +/- minus 11. That's over half a decade and a pretty large sample size where the Penguins were getting outscored at even strength when Crosby was on the ice. "Meanwhile" Ovechkin has scored at a 42 goal pace and is +/- plus 11 - meaning the Capitals were winning at ES when he was on the ice.

If you want to use hits and plus minus to show Ovi is the superior player, all the power to you. For everyone else, team success, PPG, etc will suffice. Crosby is the better player, end of story.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you want to use hits and plus minus to show Ovi is the superior player, all the power to you. For everyone else, team success, PPG, etc will suffice. Crosby is the better player, end of story.

I wasn't using plus minus to prove anything, except that your methodology of comparison is not valid.

PPG is way overrated. Primary PPG is a better indicator and even that's flawed.

Equating team success with individuals is even more flawed.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Crosby AINEC

 

[Steven Toast]

I wasn't using plus minus to prove anything, except that your methodology of comparison is not valid.

PPG is way overrated. Primary PPG is a better indicator and even that's flawed.

Equating team success with individuals is even more flawed.

KK, Crosby is the better player. Enjoy being wrong.

 

[Maestro84]

They’re two very different players but if I had to start a franchise I’d pick Crosby. He just seems like the better all around player

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin was better than Crosby in '18-19.

55 goals / 98 points in 88 games > 35 goals / 101 points in 83 games.

If we place more weight on playoff games, it only gets worse for Crosby.

Given that Crosby has a career 164-66-120-186 line in the playoffs compared to Ovechkin at 128-65-61 126 line do you really want to go down this road?

Crosby was clearly better in 18-19 and Hart voters agreed.

Alot of the reason for that is Crosby finishing 4th in the Selke and looking at the Penguins as a team it's clear that Crosby stood out in terms of 200 foot play on his team, much more so than Ovechkin on the Capitals.

Any argument otherwise is weak and a stretch plain and simple.

 

[wetcoast]

There is no clear edge.

Actually there is 186 is greater than 126, that's the number of points each player has in the playoffs.

Here are their career totals regular season and playoffs.

Crosby 1107-512-890-1402
Ovechkin 1212-723-614-1337

So in 105 less games Crosby has 65 more points.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is superior to Crosby on a per game basis - has 1 less goal in 36 fewer games. The primary difference between them is Crosby had Malkin for his entire career. It's a huge advantage.

Is there a mirror there you are arguing with?

Everyone agrees that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all time, heck I think he is the best goal scorer of all time.

It's pretty clear that Crosby is the best playoff performer of his generation he has 186 points, Malkin 168, Ovechkin is 3rd with 126, Backstrom is 11th with 106 points and Kuznetsov (you remember the guy who had 5 more points than Ovechkin in his 18 Conn Smythe win?) has 57 points in 70 games, and a 44-18-30-48 line for the last 3 years.

I bring this up because Ovechkin is 3rd in playoff scoring for the Capitals in the last 3 years so this Crosby is a product of Malkin argument can be put to rest.

Your Malkin example is pure crap and has been discredited for quite a while and Ovechkin has had a regular elite center linemate in Backstrom for quite some time now.

When he isn't playing with Backstrom he is playing with Kuznetsov.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Given that Crosby has a career 164-66-120-186 line in the playoffs compared to Ovechkin at 128-65-61 126 line do you really want to go down this road?

Crosby was clearly better in 18-19 and Hart voters agreed.

Alot of the reason for that is Crosby finishing 4th in the Selke and looking at the Penguins as a team it's clear that Crosby stood out in terms of 200 foot play on his team, much more so than Ovechkin on the Capitals.

Any argument otherwise is weak and a stretch plain and simple.

Crosby's defense is worth practically nothing. He barely plays the PK, he doesn't shut players down, he barely ever takes defensive zone face-offs.

Crosby was on the ice for as many goals against as Alex Ovechkin this season, while also having a higher percentage of offensive zone starts.

Much of the Canadian media has no integrity what-so-ever when it comes to these things. They simply vote for Crosby for political reasons. And who can blame them? Nativism is alive and well in hockey. They're merely meeting the demand.

This nonsense about Crosby being great at defense was invented right when his offense fell off. It's not a coincidence.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby's defense is worth practically nothing. He barely plays the PK, he doesn't shut players down, he barely ever takes defensive zone face-offs.

I guess we should take your biased opinion over that of the voters for NHL awards then?

I also guess that Pavel Datsyuk was pretty lousy defensively since eh really didn't play alot on the PK?

Crosby was on the ice for as many goals against as Alex Ovechkin this season, while also having a higher percentage of offensive zone starts.

Yes Crosby has a huge edge in offensive zone starts to Oveckhin right?

57.4% to 56.9%.

Actually this is pretty much statically irrelevant.

Also your numbers are off Ovechkin was on the ice for 85 GA, Crosby 83 GA with 5 of them being on the PK.

Let's look at more relevant comparison here.

Ovechkin was a +7 on a team that had a combined +143

Crosby was a +18 on a team that was +95

Much of the Canadian media has no integrity what-so-ever when it comes to these things. They simply vote for Crosby for political reasons. And who can blame them? Nativism is alive and well in hockey.

The majority of the media that vote on these things are actually American based and these are the same collection of voters that have voted for Ovechkin for his Hart trophies.

So maybe try again this argue is extremely weak and dated in 2019.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I bring this up because Ovechkin is 3rd in playoff scoring for the Capitals in the last 3 years so this Crosby is a product of Malkin argument can be put to rest.

Your Malkin example is pure crap and has been discredited for quite a while and Ovechkin has had a regular elite center linemate in Backstrom for quite some time now.

When he isn't playing with Backstrom he is playing with Kuznetsov.

Ovechkin is first in primary points, second in regular traditional points, not third. Ovechkin has lead his team in points and goals in the regular and postseason significantly more often than Crosby.

Nobody claimed Crosby was a product of Malkin.

Backstrom and Kuznetsov are both very good players who are greatly elevated by playing with Ovechkin. How many elite centers do you think there are? Is it a coincidence that Mike Ribeiro also put up elite stats (tied for 10th in points) while playing with Ovie? I think not.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I also guess that Pavel Datsyuk was pretty lousy defensively since eh really didn't play alot on the PK?

Datsyuk - unlike Crosby - has shut down elite offensive players in a playoff series. It's kind of an important distinction.

 

[wetcoast]

Datsyuk - unlike Crosby - has shut down elite offensive players in a playoff series. It's kind of an important distinction.

So to put it another way Datsyuk doesn't need to play a lot on the PK to be recognized for his defensive play right?

speaking of important distinction Dats actually had a 1.5% advantage in offensive zone starts in 08 compared to 3rd place Zetts and a whopping edge to John Madden at 47.8%

Dats had a 55.9% that year so obviously you have uncovered a huge controversy here in Dats winning the 08 Selke, given also how much more Madden played on the PK right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

So to put it another way Datsyuk doesn't need to play a lot on the PK to be recognized for his defensive play right?

speaking of important distinction Dats actually had a 1.5% advantage in offensive zone starts in 08 compared to 3rd place Zetts and a whopping edge to John Madden at 47.8%

Dats had a 55.9% that year so obviously you have uncovered a huge controversy here in Dats winning the 08 Selke, given also how much more Madden played on the PK right?

But again, Datsyuk could shut down an elite offensive player for a playoff series because Datsyuk was actually deployed in that role and he could actually do it.

For Crosby you guys are just pretending and hoping nobody will notice.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This is ridiculous. Sidney has always been and always will be the more valuable player. At this point it's pretty much objective fact. They're both 2 of the best to ever do it, Sids just a little better, a little but clearly better.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is first in primary points, second in regular traditional points, not third. Ovechkin has lead his team in points and goals in the regular and postseason significantly more often than Crosby.

He was tied with Backstrom but in 4 more games.

The point of the matter is that Crosby stands out more on his team playoff wise recently than Ovechkin does and has a huge career advantage in the playoffs.

Nobody claimed Crosby was a product of Malkin.

Well you did say this up thread and it's been dubunked already...

Ovechkin is superior to Crosby on a per game basis - has 1 less goal in 36 fewer games. The primary difference between them is Crosby had Malkin for his entire career. It's a huge advantage.

Actually Crosby was pretty good as an 18 year old without Malkin, just go back and look.

On a per game basis Crosby onoce again blows Ovechkin out of the water in the playoffs....and the regualr season as well now that you brinf it up

PPG playoffs 40+ games

1. Crosby 1.13
2. Malkin 1.04
5. Ovechkin .98

PPG regualr season 400+ games

1. Crosby 1.29
2. Malkin 1.18
3. Ovechkin 1.12

Crosby has spent the majority of his career with other players on his line at ES and yes he has played with Malkin on the PP but once again there is no advantage their for Crosby when we look at the PP situation Ovechkin has enjoyed in his career.

Backstrom and Kuznetsov are both very good players who are greatly elevated by playing with Ovechkin. How many elite centers do you think there are? Is it a coincidence that Mike Ribeiro also put up elite stats (tied for 10th in points) while playing with Ovie? I think not.

Yes Ribero was 10th in 12-13 short season of 48 games and he beat up on the southeast division much like Ovechkin and not so much against other divisions so it's a really weak point.

I happen to think that Riberio's best season is probably in 07-08 tied for 12th in points in the NHL which led the Dallas Stars and gave Brenden Morrow his career year that year.

Backstrom isn't just very good he is an elite playmaker period.

Kuznetsov has had consitency isssues but he is still a much better player than the usual and most common line mates that Crosby has had plain and simple.
.

 

[wetcoast]

But again, Datsyuk could shut down an elite offensive player for a playoff series because Datsyuk was actually deployed in that role and he could actually do it.

For Crosby you guys are just pretending and hoping nobody will notice.

Once again no one is arguing that Crosby is at Datsyuk's level defensively it's just that he is closer to Datsyuk defensively than he is to Ovechkin who is average defensively at best.

Your arguments about Crosby and his 200 foot game are simply absurd and hold no relation to reality as one can say anything but your assertion about Crosby defensively compared to Ovechkin are simply words backed by zero facts.

 

[Thenameless]

NHL All-Time Goals per Game Leaders

1. Mike Bossy
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Cy Denneny
4. Babe Dye
5. Pavel Bure
6. Alexander Ovechkin
7. Wayne Gretzky
8. Brett Hull
9. Bobby Hull
10. Tim Kerr

NHL All-Time Points per Game Leaders

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Mike Bossy
4. Bobby Orr
5. Marcel Dionne
6. Sidney Crosby
7. Peter Stastny
8. Peter Forsberg
9. Kent Nilsson
10. Phil Esposito

Midnight Judges keeps on touting the importance of GPG over PPG, and how it more accurately depicts who the better player is. Well, here it is. Both lists have some of the best players that ever lived, but look at how the order is very inaccurate when using GPG as one's determining factor. Are we really going to say that Bossy is the best ever, and that Gretzky only belongs in 7th place? The GPG list has guys like Bure, Ovechkin, both Hulls, and Tim Kerr on it. The PPG list has guys like Orr, Dionne, Crosby, and Esposito on it (with Gretzky and Lemieux at the very top). So, as a general question, which list more accurately predicts who the better players are?

 

[wetcoast]

NHL All-Time Goals per Game Leaders

1. Mike Bossy
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Cy Denneny
4. Babe Dye
5. Pavel Bure
6. Alexander Ovechkin
7. Wayne Gretzky
8. Brett Hull
9. Bobby Hull
10. Tim Kerr

NHL All-Time Points per Game Leaders

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Mike Bossy
4. Bobby Orr
5. Marcel Dionne
6. Sidney Crosby
7. Peter Stastny
8. Peter Forsberg
9. Kent Nilsson
10. Phil Esposito

Midnight Judges keeps on touting the importance of GPG over PPG, and how it more accurately depicts who the better player is. Well, here it is. Both lists have some of the best players that ever lived, but look at how the order is very inaccurate when using GPG as one's determining factor. Are we really going to say that Bossy is the best ever, and that Gretzky only belongs in 7th place? The GPG list has guys like Bure, Ovechkin, both Hulls, and Tim Kerr on it. The PPG list has guys like Orr, Dionne, Crosby, and Esposito on it (with Gretzky and Lemieux at the very top). So, as a general question, which list more accurately predicts who the better players are?

In related news the suns rises in the east and sets in the west.

Only the most fringe arguments are going to look at the partial picture and when people look at the whole picture of what Crosby and Ovechkin bring to the table and how their careers have occurred so far it's pretty clear to see who has had the better career and is the better player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

NHL All-Time Goals per Game Leaders

1. Mike Bossy
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Cy Denneny
4. Babe Dye
5. Pavel Bure
6. Alexander Ovechkin
7. Wayne Gretzky
8. Brett Hull
9. Bobby Hull
10. Tim Kerr

NHL All-Time Points per Game Leaders

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Mike Bossy
4. Bobby Orr
5. Marcel Dionne
6. Sidney Crosby
7. Peter Stastny
8. Peter Forsberg
9. Kent Nilsson
10. Phil Esposito

Midnight Judges keeps on touting the importance of GPG over PPG, and how it more accurately depicts who the better player is. Well, here it is. Both lists have some of the best players that ever lived, but look at how the order is very inaccurate when using GPG as one's determining factor. Are we really going to say that Bossy is the best ever, and that Gretzky only belongs in 7th place? The GPG list has guys like Bure, Ovechkin, both Hulls, and Tim Kerr on it. The PPG list has guys like Orr, Dionne, Crosby, and Esposito on it (with Gretzky and Lemieux at the very top). So, as a general question, which list more accurately predicts who the better players are?

I would never advocate for a single per game stat without context.