Proposal: Leafs/Preds blockbuster

[puckIuck]

a better trade would be liljegren, nylander, gardiner, 1st 2020 for karlsson

 

[LordZapp]

Why are the lightning trying to sign a scoring forward who pretends to be a defenseman?

Lol, now your just reaching. Let's not act like the leafs haven't been all over Karlsson as well. At least try to make a good point.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Why are people so infatuated with how many points defensemen score? DEFENSEmen

Not only this but it's not like Ekholm lacks the ability to create offense. He's not as good at it as Josi and Subban so he doesn't get the PP time they do. Gardiner has never averaged less than 1:59 of PP time per game (his rookie season), Ekholm's highest is 1:52 and after that it's 1:26. I think Ekholm could produce more points if he was able to get an extra 30 seconds to a minute of PP time per game.

 

[Critical13]

By your logic Gardiner is just as good as karlasson. Holy cow. Get out of here. I've seen more or less on every Toronto's thread that Toronto's players are better than every other teams players. Oh and you use arvi' s stats when he was 22 was when he was on the 4th line. But that don't matter any advantage to make their player sound way better

By what logic Gardiner is better than Karlsson? Gardiner has no stats which make him better than Karlsson.

I didn't overrate anyone, I legitimately gave you stats. It's the only objective thing I can offer. Arvidsson is 3 years older and he tied Nylander for points this year, that's a fact. Maybe they both improve? Maybe Arvidsson is better next year? Those are what ifs, if you want to play the what if game, go ahead.

Why are people so infatuated with how many points defensemen score? DEFENSEmen

I can't tell if this is satire or not. If it's not satire, you are out to lunch.

 

[Cor]

Oh look. A bunch of vague terminology that doesn't actually fuel your retort. Care to elaborate on these incredibly good metrics and analytics?

It’s not my job to educate you. Do some research yourself.

 

[LordZapp]

It’s not my job to educate you. Do some research yourself.

But why? You came in with the advanced stats and metrics argument but nothing to back it up. Maybe you should educate yourself on preparation.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lol, now your just reaching. Let's not act like the leafs haven't been all over Karlsson as well. At least try to make a good point.

How have the Leafs been all over Karlsson?

 

[Randy Randerson]

I get what you're saying but that came out sounding a bit funny.

I know - when he goofs, he does it in a way that you remember as a bonehead play for a long time, even if he covered his own mistake for no harm done like throwing a pass up the middle then chasing down the puck to get it back

 

[LordZapp]

How have the Leafs been all over Karlsson?

I should have clarified, alot of leaf fans.

 

[Notsince67]

Lol, now your just reaching. Let's not act like the leafs haven't been all over Karlsson as well. At least try to make a good point.

He isn't a great defenseman. Doesn't even play the PK

 

[crowi]

He isn't a great defenseman. Doesn't even play the PK

"Matthews isn't a great defensive forward. Doesn't even play the PK." Right?

Anyway, a bit surprised how many are calling Nylander a C when he hasn't been playing as one more than a handful of games. Overall this offer is pretty fair IF Nylander can raise his play to the next level - otherwise it's a loss for NSH.

 

[Notsince67]

"Matthews isn't a great defensive forward. Doesn't even play the PK." Right?

Anyway, a bit surprised how many are calling Nylander a C when he hasn't been playing as one more than a handful of games. Overall this offer is pretty fair IF Nylander can raise his play to the next level - otherwise it's a loss for NSH.

Matthews is the best defensive center in the league

 

[Cor]

But why? You came in with the advanced stats and metrics argument but nothing to back it up. Maybe you should educate yourself on preparation.

It was not an arguement. I was replying to comment saying points don’t matter when judging defenseman (which, in today’s game is false), by saying that when you take away Gardiner’s point production, you are left with good defensive metrics and overall analytics.

It’s not my fault if someone isn’t aware of the specific numbers. I’ve done the research, I’ve looked at the numbers.

However, let’s throw out some specifics. Rankings are out of all D who played 150 minutes or more.

Game Score: 47.23 (31st)
CF%: 53.59 (38th)
xGF%: 56.47 (28th)

Of d-men who played 1200+ minutes, he ranked T-45th (of 128 d-men who played 1200+ minutes) in terms of Goals Against in all situations, and ranked 17th in terms of Goals For

The numbers aren’t publicly available, but he’s excellent at zone entries and zone exits.


Gardiner makes some high event errors, there’s no disputing that. However, he drives results. He ranks among the best (top 30) in the league in almost every category.

I won’t claim he’s a top pairing guy, but he’s one of the best second pairing guys in the league.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This feels like one of those trades where both sides say no because they give up a lot for things they don't actually need.

Anyway, a bit surprised how many are calling Nylander a C when he hasn't been playing as one more than a handful of games.

He's got more than a handful of games. He should be approaching about 60 NHL games at center, while he's also been a center in the other professional leagues he's played in. Then you add that he tends to play his most allround and involved games at center, as well as post better underlying, individual stats at the position, then it should be quite clear that he is a good choice there. People will mention that he produces less, but he gets a big drop in linemates and actually an uptick in how difficult his minutes are, so that should be expected. Hard to produce just as well when you exchange Matthews with a fourth liner like Connor Brown.

So why hasn't he played there more? Well, first off. He's on the Leafs. They had Matthews, Kadri and Bozak at center. Matthews is Matthews, and the others are either half as good on the wing (Kadri) or have never played wing at all (Bozak). That's not the whole picture though, granted. Babcock has a weird stance on Nylander at center. He always says that he'll transition at some point, but he tends to not quite trust him. But after not quite trusting him, he'll throw him in the deep end and then gush over how he's handled it. It can be very weird to get a read on, but Nylander under Babcock has never played easy minutes at center. You'd think a natural usage for him at this stage would be in a sheltered, offensive role. That hasn't happened.

Finally, some Leafs fans will tell you that they disliked Nylander at center and thought he did bad in his last stint. I find that a weird stance, driven by absurd expectations. First off, Babcock used him as a matchup center and was very satisfied with the results. Part of these results were mostly very good shot metrics. He got completely owned by Krejci one game, if I remember correctly. People also point towards a rather mediocre point pace in that stint, but Nylander played mostly with Hyman and Brown. They are not easy guys to score with, as evidenced by Matthews actually having almost exactly the same point pace as Nylander did with them as wingers. Another thing that held Nylander back then, as well as all year, is that the second PP unit that he was on was disfunctional, and not having Matthews there didn't make it better. But that's the gist of it. He was supposed to carry the team when in that center role with Matthews out, but not even Matthews himself could perform much better with those minutes and that kind of linemates. His "failure" there has made some fans see him as a failure at center.

Edit: I have no idea why I jumped into such a lengthy description of Nylander at center, but there you go.

 

[Spazkat]

Matthews is the best defensive center in the league

 

[GeauxPreds1]

This feels like one of those trades where both sides say no because they give up a lot for things they don't actually need.


He's got more than a handful of games. He should be approaching about 60 NHL games at center, while he's also been a center in the other professional leagues he's played in. Then you add that he tends to play his most allround and involved games at center, as well as post better underlying, individual stats at the position, then it should be quite clear that he is a good choice there. People will mention that he produces less, but he gets a big drop in linemates and actually an uptick in how difficult his minutes are, so that should be expected. Hard to produce just as well when you exchange Matthews with a fourth liner like Connor Brown.

So why hasn't he played there more? Well, first off. He's on the Leafs. They had Matthews, Kadri and Bozak at center. Matthews is Matthews, and the others are either half as good on the wing (Kadri) or have never played wing at all (Bozak). That's not the whole picture though, granted. Babcock has a weird stance on Nylander at center. He always says that he'll transition at some point, but he tends to not quite trust him. But after not quite trusting him, he'll throw him in the deep end and then gush over how he's handled it. It can be very weird to get a read on, but Nylander under Babcock has never played easy minutes at center. You'd think a natural usage for him at this stage would be in a sheltered, offensive role. That hasn't happened.

Finally, some Leafs fans will tell you that they disliked Nylander at center and thought he did bad in his last stint. I find that a weird stance, driven by absurd expectations. First off, Babcock used him as a matchup center and was very satisfied with the results. Part of these results were mostly very good shot metrics. He got completely owned by Krejci one game, if I remember correctly. People also point towards a rather mediocre point pace in that stint, but Nylander played mostly with Hyman and Brown. They are not easy guys to score with, as evidenced by Matthews actually having almost exactly the same point pace as Nylander did with them as wingers. Another thing that held Nylander back then, as well as all year, is that the second PP unit that he was on was disfunctional, and not having Matthews there didn't make it better. But that's the gist of it. He was supposed to carry the team when in that center role with Matthews out, but not even Matthews himself could perform much better with those minutes and that kind of linemates. His "failure" there has made some fans see him as a failure at center.

Edit: I have no idea why I jumped into such a lengthy description of Nylander at center, but there you go.

My question to you is in your opinion does Nylander wanna play center more than wing.

 

[AllDay28]

By your logic Gardiner is just as good as karlasson. Holy cow. Get out of here. I've seen more or less on every Toronto's thread that Toronto's players are better than every other teams players. Oh and you use arvi' s stats when he was 22 was when he was on the 4th line. But that don't matter any advantage to make their player sound way better

why are you getting so offended by 1 stat? :s ..

 

[AllDay28]

Oh look. A bunch of vague terminology that doesn't actually fuel your retort. Care to elaborate on these incredibly good metrics and analytics?

just cause he doesnt give people CTE like Scott Stevens, doesnt mean he doesnt surpress shots, in many different forms. For example, playing shinny at a rink in the winter. You dnt lay people out without equipment thats just stupid. You play more stick oriented. Im guessing Gardiners analytics suggest he stops entry. He alters shots. He doesnt allow shots to the net. Things like that. Simple things that simple minds dont see unfortunately. Thats why we got #s thankfully.

 

[Pucker77]

Im saying no as a Leafs fan from the beginning of this, but I would also like to add that if Gardiner would re-sign to that deal I dont think the Leafs would trade him.

The reason he is available in trades is because he has one year left on his deal and everyone expects a large raise to $6 mil is range.

 

[RickP]

Not only this but it's not like Ekholm lacks the ability to create offense. He's not as good at it as Josi and Subban so he doesn't get the PP time they do. Gardiner has never averaged less than 1:59 of PP time per game (his rookie season), Ekholm's highest is 1:52 and after that it's 1:26. I think Ekholm could produce more points if he was able to get an extra 30 seconds to a minute of PP time per game.

^^This. If Ekholm was used as an offensive Dman (more o-zone starts, more PP time), in my opinion he would get 45-50 pts regularly.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I should have clarified, alot of leaf fans.

I follow the Leafs board closely and you're wrong. Maybe it seems to you like a lot (our fan base is huge) but a pretty small percentage of the fan base has shown any interest in Karlsson.

 

[Nithoniniel]

My question to you is in your opinion does Nylander wanna play center more than wing.

I know he prefers center. As to the follow up question, I don't see that being a career-determining preference though.

I follow the Leafs board closely and you're wrong. Maybe it seems to you like a lot (our fan base is huge) but a pretty small percentage of the fan base has shown any interest in Karlsson.

Yeah. I don't think I've participated in - or even seen - a discussion on acquiring Karlsson. Maybe a couple of mentions, that's all.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

I know he prefers center. As to the follow up question, I don't see that being a career-determining preference though.

I think if he wants to be a center and with you guys signing Tavares it could be writing in the wall for him. And he'll cut loos whenever he has a chance. But then again he might enjoy playing with Tavares and decide that wing is good for him. Who knows.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I think if he wants to be a center and with you guys signing Tavares it could be writing in the wall for him. And he'll cut loos whenever he has a chance. But then again he might enjoy playing with Tavares and decide that wing is good for him. Who knows.

Yeah, I don't see this happening. He doesn't hate playing wing, he just prefers center. I sincerely doubt he's planning to leave a place I know he loves just because of a slight preference.

 

[Boxscore]

I could see something around Nylander+ for Subban.