Leafs need more truculence!!!

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Why is it you can't mention getting tougher without people using extremes to compare styles, you don't go an entire team of Goons vs. Gretzky

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

 

[nuck]

NHL moving in that direction.

Better to be ahead of the curve than behind it like Edmonton.

NHL moved in that direction already. Where it will be in a year or two is unclear. The current Cup champions are not a figure skating team so we know the heavy game still works, just not slow and heavy like the Kings. All you have to do to avoid the Oiler fate is don't sign a huge long term deal for a guy that can't keep up. Any player they look at will be a better fit in today's game than Lucic. IE Ferland. Nobody has suggested acquiring Looch. A big no to Ferland though because he would be a costly pure rental who will get very well paid by one of the 25 clubs with more cap space than the Leafs.

The Pens won two Cups on the backs of their goalies and two generational forwards who would not be pushed around. They still went to 7 games against the Caps and Sens in 17 so it isn't like that is only path to the Cup. Look at the playoff hitting the Pens did for their two Cup runs. Their hits per game were equal to about 2400 hits over a full season where the current Leafs are on a pace for about 1200 hits. Tampa is on a pace for about 2000 hits this season so we could be missing the curve altogether.

 

[Cobra777]

I feel like there is a whole subset of old hockey fans that preferred fights to goals, and got lost in the cracks as the game evolved and the skill increased. Now they wander hockey forums, saying their favourite team needs a face puncher.

Way off, we want guys who can play but are not WIMPS and fold like a cheap polyester suit and mail it in when the game gets tough and physical.
Teams have adapted how to play the so called skilled teams like ours, which entails closing the gaps, clogging the neutral zone, a heavy fore check, torrid puck pursuit on the carrier, physicality to disrupt the flow. To beat this the skill team has to get down to business, win puck battles, fight through the fore check and deal some pysicality back while moving the puck fast with everyone on board.

 

[Northofyu]

Perhaps truculence is the wrong word?

I'm sure most here had no objection to Leaf's adding Muzzin's size & physicality to our lineup aside from his skills, as it was obviously needed - ioho. & hey would a little more hurt our speed & skill level- I doubt it.

& as for TBay having a smaller lineup - not sure about that. Maybe the same size as they do have some small forwards, but on D? Hedman, Coburn, Sergachev & even McDonagh & Girardi aren't small.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

I'd like to see a bit more truculence from Muzzin. One good hit on Saturday could have changed our lackadaisacal ways. Don't get me started on Kadri, he was a guy who could shift-disturb with the best in the past, this year he looks soft and indifferent.

 

[Cobra777]

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

Oh come now stop putting words in every ones mouth, there have been more good players who can play, score, skate, have skill, shoot while also being hard to play against is what imho most are wanting and talking about

 

[IPS]

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

I don't know what magic fix people are looking for personnel-wise. We already have a pair of elite #1C's, elite #1RW's, a Norris contender, a solid #2 now with Muzzin and a world-class goalie.

This lackadaisical and underwhelming play the team brings on some nights has so little to do with grit/toughness. We've whoooped Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, Washington etc... when our team comes ready for battle, grit/toughness be damned.

What needs to happen is for us to make better use out of the players we already have. I have no idea why people expect the team dynamic to magically change if Simmonds and Gudas get brought in. All it would be is a monumental waste of assets.

 

[baton elevated]

Way off, we want guys who can play but are not WIMPS and fold like a cheap polyester suit and mail it in when the game gets tough and physical.
Teams have adapted how to play the so called skilled teams like ours, which entails closing the gaps, clogging the neutral zone, a heavy fore check, torrid puck pursuit on the carrier, physicality to disrupt the flow. To beat this the skill team has to get down to business, win puck battles, fight through the fore check and deal some pysicality back while moving the puck fast with everyone on board.

Very insightful post. This man gets it.

 

[Cobra777]

I don't know what magic fix people are looking for personnel-wise. We already have a pair of elite #1C's, elite #1RW's, a Norris contender, a solid #2 now with Muzzin and a world-class goalie.

This lackadaisical and underwhelming play the team brings on some nights has so little to do with grit/toughness. We've whoooped Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, Washington etc... when our team comes ready for battle, grit/toughness be damned.

What needs to happen is for us to make better use out of the players we already have. I have no idea why people expect the team dynamic to magically change if Simmonds and Gudas get brought in. All it would be is a monumental waste of assets.

I respectfully disagree, couple of guys like these who can play the game, skate well, chip in to score, have physicality and emotion to bite back and play a hard game through any style gives our skilled youngsters way more cahonnes to get past the fear and excel.

 

[LaPlante94]

I don't know what magic fix people are looking for personnel-wise. We already have a pair of elite #1C's, elite #1RW's, a Norris contender, a solid #2 now with Muzzin and a world-class goalie.

This lackadaisical and underwhelming play the team brings on some nights has so little to do with grit/toughness. We've whoooped Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, Washington etc... when our team comes ready for battle, grit/toughness be damned.

What needs to happen is for us to make better use out of the players we already have. I have no idea why people expect the team dynamic to magically change if Simmonds and Gudas get brought in. All it would be is a monumental waste of assets.

Our team is very skilled and that's what makes us dangerous, but at the same time there's quite a few games where that skill just isn't enough and this is where our problem is. When it comes to those games where they gotta get greasy and grind out to try and get a win, they just don't seem interested and are flat footed. The first few games Muzzin played and he was laying big hits it got the building going and that also got the players going. A lot of people who sit at their computers and basically watch hockey on their spreadsheets don't understand this part of the game and what it does to a team. I was against all these extra advanced stats at first that's making it's way into the game but I've accepted it and even look them up once in a while now to try and get a better understanding of them, but this is hockey and not baseball so these stats can't be used for everything and this is why I liked the Dubas hiring because I know he's a hybrid GM. He's into these stats but he's also been involved in hockey his entire life and knows you're gonna need some toughness in the lineup. He's just being smart about it and trying to get players that are tough but can still play and I think that's why we've heard Clifford rumours in the media.

 

[Jmo89]

I don't know what magic fix people are looking for personnel-wise. We already have a pair of elite #1C's, elite #1RW's, a Norris contender, a solid #2 now with Muzzin and a world-class goalie.

This lackadaisical and underwhelming play the team brings on some nights has so little to do with grit/toughness. We've whoooped Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, Washington etc... when our team comes ready for battle, grit/toughness be damned.

What needs to happen is for us to make better use out of the players we already have. I have no idea why people expect the team dynamic to magically change if Simmonds and Gudas get brought in. All it would be is a monumental waste of assets.

I agree with much of your post. I can't speak for others, but for me personally when I say add a little toughness I look at a couple guys like Brown and Lindholm.

Brown has 20 points and has mostly played on the 3rd line or higher. He's too expensive for a 4th liner.

Thankfully Lindholm has mostly been on the 4th line and has 1 goal (12 points). I think it's fair to say both those guys have largely been ineffective. If you can swap one or both for someone who is as effective (not hard to do) but brings an element of toughness the team lacks, why not?

What if the Leafs attached a mid pick to Brown and swapped him for Ritchie? Ritchie has 5 more points, brings physicality and could likely play on the 3rd line. He's also paid less than Brown.

Im sure it wouldn't be hard to find a replacement for Lindholm that's more physical.

I don't see those additions as a magic panacea, I just see it as getting a little bit more of something you lack.

I said the same thing as you in a salary cap thread about the core; the Leafs have the hard part done. They have the top end skill and most of them are signed long term. Once Marleau is gone they really have no veterans signed to anchor contracts (Tavares could become that.) It's now a matter of finding the right mix of depth players.

I personally wouldn't touch Simmonds. Gudas I wouldn't mind if you can unload Zaitsev (who looks better with Muzzin,) but I agree if the cost is too high then no thanks.

But would finding a replacement for Brown really cost that much?

 

[tmlms13]

The Leafs could really use Nick Ritchie. He is one of the few players in the league, who is legitimately intimidating to play against and is a quality player. You want to combat Tom Wilson? You want to combat Chara? Go get this guy. Something like Connor Brown, Bracco and a 2

If the Leafs wanted a player like Nick Richie they would have drafted him instead of Nylander in 2014.

 

[nuck]

If the Leafs wanted a player like Nick Richie they would have drafted him instead of Nylander in 2014.

All the 2014 draft order means is they thought Willie was at least one spot better, nothing else. That was a Dave Nonis pick although Dubas does seem to avoid grit with his higher choices. I haven't seen Ritchie play enough to know if I really like him as a player but he is definitely a tough kid.

I have to say some on this thread are being extremely optimistic for a Brownie based deal. Ducks have major cap issues with three aging vets on huge deals who aren't earning their pay. Brown has 5 goals and is a throw in piece in any significant trade. Unless the Ducks think Ritchie is a total bust they aren't swapping him for a tiny older player with no real physical game who is on a more expensive deal. The add from the Leafs side would be huge and Anaheim would probably like to attach some other outbound salary to any deal for one of their cheap kids. I think people need to think about a lot smaller deals, if there are to be any. The current no-hitter lineup doesn't suggest Dubas thinks the club needs big bodied forwards to win so I don't see prime assets being traded.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander surrounded by gritty players would be so much fun to watch, where’s Burkie when you need him

 

[FraumBallard]

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

Or not.
Don't speak for others.
That's common sense.
Also.
You just exposed yourself as someone who is closed minded.
Shouldn't you allow people to express their opinions before casting assertions?
Thoughtful analysis this is not.
Try again.
Fire Dubas!!

 

[Trapper]

People won't be satisfied with just adding some toughness/grit. Dubas added Muzzin for nothing and people are still clamoring for more, while lambasting core players for being too soft. The team could be just Marner/Matthews/Nylander surrounded by gritty players, and people would be talking about how they are too soft and need to be replaced

I won’t be satisfied until they win the Cup.
Do I think they are lacking in areas to go 4 rounds, possible 28 games? Yes.

Now we have a first test. It seems we are on course to play Boston 1st round.
Home ice is there for the taking. Take it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I won’t be satisfied until they win the Cup.
Do I think they are lacking in areas to go 4 rounds, possible 28 games? Yes.

Now we have a first test. It seems we are on course to play Boston 1st round.
Home ice is there for the taking. Take it.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if got home ice against Boston, it's not looking good for us at all in that regard.

 

[Joedoggy]

If you cannot acquire more of something(truculence)Might you be better getting rid of something(Babcock)

 

[Trapper]

If you cannot acquire more of something(truculence)Might you be better getting rid of something(Babcock)

Time will tell.
We know the regular season Leafs.
Some don’t see any problems, some do.
Some might have different opinions on what those problems are.

I don’t know the playoff Leafs yet.
What people think is good enough might be, or not.
Does this collection have the ability to play any style? We will see.

 

[Trapper]

If you cannot acquire more of something(truculence)Might you be better getting rid of something(Babcock)

When we talk about truculence, people go right to Orr/McLaren.

I would easily swap out players on this team for a Mark Stone. That’s a player type missing from the top 6. That’s skill with size and down low play.

 

[Trapper]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if got home ice against Boston, it's not looking good for us at all in that regard.

Surely a contender with 2 games in hand can take 2nd place in the division without excuses.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Surely a contender with 2 games in hand can take 2nd place in the division without excuses.

Boston's a contender as well and they're ahead of us ATM.

 

[RLF]

When we talk about truculence, people go right to Orr/McLaren.

I would easily swap out players on this team for a Mark Stone. That’s a player type missing from the top 6. That’s skill with size and down low play.

Yea, players with push-back, not goons. Guys who can play, but would rather dish it out instead of just take it. Players with some edge to their game. Like when Kadri is at his best. An attitude and engine like Hyman. This is not, nor has it ever been how a goon plays.

 

[Trapper]

Boston's a contender as well and they're ahead of us ATM.

Lol this reminds me of the elite conversation.
We are elite but so are others.
We are contenders but so are others.

So then it comes down to team makeup of elite/contenders. And this is what remains to be seen.

Right now it’s time to get to work.

 

[BlueForever75]

The Leafs need players that play with an edge not necessarily BIG stiffs that some are throwing around. If any of you have watched the Leafs this season, players like Johnsson, Kapanen and Moore when in the lineup play heavy games. They throw their body around and go into the areas that they are least expected.

If Matthews played like a 6 " 4 center, and Nylander was afraid to get in the dirty areas, this is all would be a moot point. We have way too many stick checkers on this team (Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Marleau, Gardiner).

As Matthews and Nylander to put on some muscle over the off season and strengthen their boy frames into men. Give them a summer with Gary Roberts. Then you wont any longer be complaining about having to play a heavy game.

We do have some bigger then average players, but unfortunately they circle away from contact rather then initiating it for puck possession. This was our downfall the past couple of seasons, and it will be this season as well.

I put this on management and coaching, they did not set the bar for these youngsters the past 2 off seasons.