Leafs need a new coaching staff

[Bowski]

Every time the Leafs do well it is magnified and every time we suck it is too. This is a Leafs board discussion. But, the cycle will never end.

Leafs are steaming trash all around (Upper management -> players), not close to ending. They might get on a fools gold roll, but will only extend the current misery.

 

[El Travo]

I hope Babcock finishes his contract because I like seeing this kind of stuff.

 

[Sky04]

It's funny cause most of the Babcock hype was done by leafs fans themselves.

 

[Bowski]

I'm shocked at your post count given how long you've had an account.

Happy/sorry to shock you, I don't really post much on the internet, seems a waste of time, until Leaf Nation collapses in blazing glory.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Shame. Right now their D is what is truly garbage.

I know people are gonna argue and look at his GF vs GA differential with his coaching career and say “look they play defense”. Just A: no need to play defense when you always have the puck and B: he may have changed going to the Marlies. I’ve never watched a game by them (not by choice just no way to do so) so I will say he could have grown. But if it’s the same as here in the Soo still when Dubas and Keefe were in charge, you’re gonna be disappointed.

 

[Bowski]

I know people are gonna argue and look at his GF vs GA differential with his coaching career and say “look they play defense”. Just A: no need to play defense when you always have the puck and B: he may have changed going to the Marlies. I’ve never watched a game by them (not by choice just no way to do so) so I will say he could have grown. But if it’s the same as here in the Soo still when Dubas and Keefe were in charge, you’re gonna be disappointed.

Systematic team D and a couple of speddy forecheckers (Hagelin type) IMO is what they truly need. The top offensive talent has vary little support. Every damn puck that goes back to the D is bobbled.
Jack Nicholson up there might be Babcock's best friend, but he's not the one to turn this thing around.

 

[stonec]

He was awful coaching Team Canada in 2010 they won on pure skill and talent and despite Babcock. An half deflated balloon would have been a better coach.

Then why isn't Toronto winning based on pure skill and talent?

The fact remains, Babcock and coaches from Babcock school (McLellan, Peters) are the only ones who have won anything with team Canada in the last decade. All others have failed despite having the same "pure skill" rosters available to them.

 

[North Cole]

That's awful to hear, so Keefe will want major $ to continue coaching up in the big leagues? Shame this organization is it's own worst nightmare with next best to garbage wanting to be paid. How about they try to promote guys, see if it works, then pay them if it does?

I mean, he wont get $5m because hes unproven at the big table. But the way your organization throws money at anyone and everyone, I'd assume he would get a more than fair contract.

They havent really set a precedent of paying people after they are successful. They embrace the idea of paying for potential, which in the long run probably pays off more than not, assuming the talent evaluation is legitimate. They survive because they have deep enough pockets to ride that wave.

Honest opinion of MLSE:

It seems to me they are in a transitional period. When Fletcher went upstairs a number of years ago and Ujiri was brought in, they went with more a stable approach to their teams. Lou to GM the Leafs, Casey to coach the Raps, and Babcock was brought in as a veteran guy to coach the Leafs.

I remember the day Shanahan came to our floor for a speech not long after he was hired, preaching an identity for the product as executives always do. I think we are at a point where they saw what was beginning to work for Raps and what did work with TFC...Casey was fired after being coach of the year and Nick Nurse, with no real NBA coaching experience was brought in and the core players were revamped - Raps win a ring. The Leafs are in the middle of this change too...Lou moved on after he was discontinued in favour of a younger GM, who retooled the team. Babcock wont be renewed and if they miss the playoffs will likely be fired, at which point a coach with little NHL experience will probably get his shot. MLSE has been trending towards younger managerial teams for some time, for each of their franchises. Imo, once this is fully matriculated throughout the org, you might see a little more success, and inevitably the back of Babcock.

EDIT - the current leafs situation reminds me of the argument between Art and Billy Beane in moneyball. The GM constructs a team that is meant to operate a certain way in order to be successful, and the coach doesnt run the team that way because it doesnt make sense to him. Art says to him - "I have to manage this team in a way that I can explain in Job interviews next year". Its not until they start winning that the coach really buys into the teams identity, rather than trying to forge his own. Babcock is much the same way, but you get what you pay for when you bring in these types of personalities. He is very much the - draw blood from a stone, type of guy...

 

[flamesforcup]

Leafs can actually be good with a new coach. Its clear a team is not going to have success when their Gm and coach dont agree on a philosophy. Its like they are both building a different team Dubas acquires players like Barrie and Babcock doesnt even use them to their strenghts. I would rather keep Dubas over Babcock any day.

 

[sparxx87]

I know people are gonna argue and look at his GF vs GA differential with his coaching career and say “look they play defense”. Just A: no need to play defense when you always have the puck and B: he may have changed going to the Marlies. I’ve never watched a game by them (not by choice just no way to do so) so I will say he could have grown. But if it’s the same as here in the Soo still when Dubas and Keefe were in charge, you’re gonna be disappointed.

Nothing has changed. The Marlies aren’t good in their own zone but when everyone is passionate (about hating Babcock), logic and reason often go out the window.

Keefe isn’t an upgrade although I agree a different voice might light a spark in the short term.

To me, the greatest benefit to Keefe will be that Mike Danton will be around a team that clearly lacks toughness.

 

[Bowski]

MLSE has been trending towards younger core managerial teams for some time, for each of their franchises. Imo. Once this is fully matriculated throughout the org, you might see a little more success, and inevitably the back of Babcock

The problem with the Leafs is that their younger player core has also cashed in to the max...but they're all non-franchise forwards. Nylander flying up the wing is great, but is very much ineffective this year No help on the backend for quality break-out passes, they really have to concentrate on the D for some of that.

 

[koyvoo]

It's funny cause most of the Babcock hype was done by leafs fans themselves.

All while wings fans were forewarning them about the things they’re complaining about Babcock now.

 

[North Cole]

The problem with the Leafs is that their younger player core has also cashed in to the max...but they're all non-franchise forwards. Nylander flying up the wing is great, but is very much ineffective this year No help on the backend for quality break-out passes, they really have to concentrate on the D for some of that.

Nylander will be moved next year. The D is all up for renewals after this year, Barrie will be gone, muzzin may be resigned.

I would expect the plan is for Dubas to attempt to flex his wallet, which may be possible assuming the talent evaluation is legitimate. Front loading contracts creates a disparity between player value and contract value because of unequal team budgets. You pay a premium for two types of value - monetary value and intrinsic value. There will always be teams that trade for monetary value (ottawa), and teams that trade to improve the team on the ice (trade deadline). If you pay for potential and spend more money up front on a players prime years, you can trade some of the later prime years for a premium. You will be selling high because they are coming off of good seasons, and there will be positive contract value because they are owed less money than their AAV. Next year Nylander will have positive contract value. With the trend of players peaking earlier and the league moving to younger players, it may actually be sustainable to front load signing bonuses and dump players after their post ELC contract (2 years before UFA). The question is, how much does the term affect the return? The goal for a team doing this, should be to run all of their post ELC contracts to UFA as quickly as possible. Which lowers contract value, to offset this and maintain contract value, you need more money up front. Which requires you to be rich. You're looking at a team that routinely needs to spend 20 million over the cap each year, in real money. Most likely before factoring in LTIR havens...

There are a lot of teams up against the cap this year, which creates an illiquid market because no one can spend money. In an illiquid market, high AAV contracts are bad, since they cannot be moved. Which is the purpose of low term, with lower term your contracts expire sooner so you are the first in line for UFAs and you get cap space from contracts expiring with massive AAVs... if you are truly committed to BPA, you absorb as many good UFAs as you can for high cost, which drives up UFA market more. This increases the value of front loaded contracts, because Now every team is starting to be forced into comparable high RFA/UFA contracts or holdouts. Cheaper teams will pay premiums for your players with huge AAV and low real cost. Then you really just need to consolidate draft picks and supplement the 4/5 Good-Elite players you spent a fortune on. It's just a matter of shocking the market enough times. Talent evaluation is obviously key. If you force league wide term down, things like Tavares will become more commonplace.

Its important to note that UFA gambling does not often work out. However, if the team trends toward forcing 18/19 year old players (more ELCs) into the league because of concentrated spending (spending 40% of the cap on 6 players), players will accrue seasons earlier. Most UFA contracts fail because a player is 28-30 when they sign, if you bring that down 3 years and maintain a term of 5 years, you can still buy very strong seasons with less of the decline. It's possible we could be seeing a move away from 8 year contracts.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Ann Kroenke is worth $7B. Her husband Stan is worth ~$9B. Together they own the Avs, the Denver Nuggets, Arsenal FC, the LA Rams, Colorado Rapids of MLS and Colorado Mammoth of NLL. Plus the whole Walmart stocks and being heir to the chain. Yea they’re rich

Thats an insane net worth, but Roger's is at over 11 billion, bell at 3 billion. They're the two largest media companies in Canada and everyone hates them. Perfect owners for the Leafs I suppose.

 

[ruaware41]

Maybe if Dubas stopped virtue signalling like a typical Redditor who can't help but drag politics into every matter, even at work, and instead shifted the culture entirely towards the boys standing together through good and bad and just playing hockey, the team would feel more united and players may have more pride in actually stepping up and going to war for the honour of the logo.

Why can't people understand that there is a time and place for everything? Why are some people so obsessed with dragging their political ideologies EVERYWHERE? you can't just leave that shit to Reddit and Tumblr? If I was a Leafs player rn I'd feel like I'm representing a buzz feed hr department. How can you expect them to play with pride when you are likely just dividing them by bringing your nonsense politics into the job? Dubas pisses me off man

 

[dlawong]

All TML needs to do is look at St. Louis and that D group. What is the key ingredient? Talent, vision, plus size & the more such combination the better. This is especially true comes playoff or in games against elite talent oppositions. If you can't trade for one, start draft with that in mind. Once the D can take care of players in your own end and the forwards willing to consistently back check, the offensive talent will take care of itself. A lot of good scoring chances in the NHL are generated from strong takeaway defensive plays in the neutral zone and they have enough forwards who can finish the rushes & put the pucks in the net. A good back up goalie will definitely to put more ROW in the standing.

Maybe the coaching could be an issue but with too many physically weak D who cannot out battle the opposing forwards on the board or corners and not enough long reaches to intercept passes can collectively be a problem. You should only have no more than 2 undersized D on your team and they better be sharp shooters or great passers. Also note that even if you have a speeding team not all speedsters can play up to that level each game especially in BtB games and tight travel schedules. Their speed can also be neutralised by opposition in many ways. Speed Plus physical always works better hand in hand.

 

[DonCherryForever]

I think Babcock is bad but it's poor management that is mostly to blame for the Leafs wasted potential. Tavares wasn't needed. Barrie was not the type of defensemen they needed. Nylander contract is awful. Too much money tied up in too few players. Team is softer without Kadri.

Dubas went all-in on offence. The inexperience is showing. This team is horrendous defensively.

 

[kunekune]

What Toronto needs is a new gm who doesn't give out stupid contracts. That's what killing the team.

 

[Mickey Redmond]

I couldn’t believe it when I heard how much money Toronto threw at Babcock. I get that they are desperate for success, but ultimately he isn’t a top tier coach.

 

[FMichael]

What Toronto needs is a new gm who doesn't give out stupid contracts. That's what killing the team.

It'll only be worse next season.

 

[sabresfan129103]

Something happened around the mid-point of last season because they looked almost unstoppable before that.

 

[kunekune]

It'll only be worse next season.

Don't know if it will be worse next season but Toronto is definitely handcuffed for several years to come.

Too bad they can't terminate those awful contracts they gave. They have at least 10 players who are overpaid.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I hope Toronto fires Babcock and Detroit hires him back. He's not perfect but it seems like Leafs fans are unable to acknowledge the fact that the roster has major holes.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I don't think this is on Babcock. Team isn't just constructed very well.

 

[Bronson]

Hire Mike Yeo haha