Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 4-3 in Washington

[Nithoniniel]

Looking at all these top teams in the East and around the league with none of them having the same kind of overpayments Dubas have been handing over to our core players and I think to myself this team is done

What? Almost every team in the league has more cap dollars tied up in overpayments. Which would you rather have, an overpayment of about $1.5M to an elite playmaker like Marner, or an overpayment of $4M for a guy like Backes?

There's no reason to think this submarines our chances. There have been cup winners with ridiculous overpayments to very mediocre players. It didn't stop them, and it certainly won't stop us.

 

[Nithoniniel]

We are in year 4 of the rebuild.

We have all the talent, we have the top paid coach in the league. Is it too much to ask for to have some consistency month to month, season to season?

Consistency in effort and play you can control. Consistency in results, measured by PDO, is not something you can control on either an individual level or a team level.

Even a team who is super consistent might have a crap month simply because factors out of their control sinks them.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Backes is a bigger overpayment than anyone on the Leafs.

Overpaying core players isn't great but a lot of teams have overpayments to non-core players, which is even worse.

The only difference is that a star being overpaid might still have trade value.

Otherwise, it’s the same impact on the salary cap. Doesn’t matter if it’s a star or a scrub who is overpaid.

 

[67leafs]

the team needs to start playing like that want/need to win.
To me it looks like a cruise fest on the ice.
No sense of urgency.
Hopefully the team steps up in JTs absence.

 

[shaner8989]

Did I hear Mathews was not on the ice in last minute here?

If so f*** Babcock.

 

[67leafs]

yup

 

[ToneDog]

the team needs to start playing like that want/need to win.
To me it looks like a cruise fest on the ice.
No sense of urgency.
Hopefully the team steps up in JTs absence.

Yeah they need to play desperate and hungry. It is something I would like to see more of from this team.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Did I hear Mathews was not on the ice in last minute here?

If so **** Babcock.

Why would you put Matthews on when you have Kerfoot ?

 

[ToneDog]

What? Almost every team in the league has more cap dollars tied up in overpayments. Which would you rather have, an overpayment of about $1.5M to an elite playmaker like Marner, or an overpayment of $4M for a guy like Backes?

There's no reason to think this submarines our chances. There have been cup winners with ridiculous overpayments to very mediocre players. It didn't stop them, and it certainly won't stop us.

With no cap space, no blue chip prospects and no top 5 picks on the horizon, it is going to be difficult to add impact players.

 

[Nithoniniel]

With no cap space, no blue chip prospects and no top 5 picks on the horizon, it is going to be difficult to add impact players.

And that's the situation for every good team. If you are great, you'll pay for it and run out of cap space, and it'll make it difficult to add.

It doesn't matter if that comes from a couple of millions too much on your star players, or a couple of millions too much on a fourth liner.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

With no cap space, no blue chip prospects and no top 5 picks on the horizon, it is going to be difficult to add impact players.

Leafs are luckily in a position where they aren't desperate for impact players. It's not a perfect roster, but it is among the best in the league. Dubas is in a fine position to make further tweaks and improve areas of weakness

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I was watching the last minute and a half with the empty net.

When the leafs gained possession in the Caps zone, I though “Great. We got possession. Let’s score.” I was also thinking “baahhh... but I also want Matthews on the ice.”

The leafs then maintained possession right to the end.
I don’t really see how this one is Babcocks fault.
Imagine Kerfoot booked for the bench, leaving 5vs 5 in the offensive zone (with an empty net) for like 5 seconds? Imagine the Caps got the puck and scored? We’d all be blaming Kerfoot.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

And that's the situation for every good team. If you are great, you'll pay for it and run out of cap space, and it'll make it difficult to add.

It doesn't matter if that comes from a couple of millions too much on your star players, or a couple of millions too much on a fourth liner.

You’ve created some weird fantastical situation where Dubas HAS to dramatically overpay a few players.... and he chose the star rfa’s.

It’s a very strange stance to be taking.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You’ve created some weird fantastical situation where Dubas HAS to dramatically a few players.... and he chose the star rfa’s.

It’s a very strange stance to be taking.

not exactly that you need to pick players to overpay, but more that it's inevitable and every GM guesses wrong at times and gives out bad contracts to players. With that in mind, it's much better to give salary to top players than waste it on lesser ones. Those are the contracts that age well, even the ones that look bad at the time like Eichel and Draisaitl. Conversely, the worst contracts are given to aging UFA players like Lucic, Ladd, Eriksson, etc.

 

[Menzinger]

With no cap space, no blue chip prospects and no top 5 picks on the horizon, it is going to be difficult to add impact players.

You dont consider Sandin to be bluechip?

 

[GoonieFace]

And that's the situation for every good team. If you are great, you'll pay for it and run out of cap space, and it'll make it difficult to add.

It doesn't matter if that comes from a couple of millions too much on your star players, or a couple of millions too much on a fourth liner.

Im guessing the Leafs top 3 players make about at least $10mil more than most teams other top 3 players. For not having won a thing, thats a steep price to pay.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Im guessing the Leafs top 3 players make about at least $10mil more than most teams other top 3 players. For not having won a thing, thats a steep price to pay.

I don't really disagree. I think Matthews should have had a bit less, and Marner should have had significantly less. Looking at just those versus comparables, that's a disadvantage for sure.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

not exactly that you need to pick players to overpay, but more that it's inevitable and every GM guesses wrong at times and gives out bad contracts to players. With that in mind, it's much better to give salary to top players than waste it on lesser ones. Those are the contracts that age well, even the ones that look bad at the time like Eichel and Draisaitl. Conversely, the worst contracts are given to aging UFA players like Lucic, Ladd, Eriksson, etc.

I disagree that overpayments are “inevitable”.

Dubas could have signed his rfa’s to fair market value like pretty much all of the other gm’s did.

 

[razkaz]

I disagree that overpayments are “inevitable”.

Dubas could have signed his rfa’s to fair market value like pretty much all of the other gm’s did.

Which RFA was signed for 6 years? Pretty sure they all signed 3 year bridges deals

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Which RFA was signed for 6 years? Pretty sure they all signed 3 year bridges deals

Rantanen. Aho five years.

But regardless, I’d be perfectly fine with Marner signing a 3 year bridge deal under 7 million (like Point).

Imagine, right now, Dubas had 4 million to address the backup situation?

 

[GoonieFace]

Rantanen. Aho five years.

But regardless, I’d be perfectly fine with Marner signing a 3 year bridge deal under 7 million (like Point).

Imagine, right now, Dubas had 4 million to address the backup situation?

With the way the NHL is going with the RFA contracts, bridge deals might be the best option really.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I disagree that overpayments are “inevitable”.

Dubas could have signed his rfa’s to fair market value like pretty much all of the other gm’s did.

I think the old expression - see the forest from the trees applies here. You're so focused on the RFA's that you're not seeing the big picture. Pretty much every team has some players signed to contracts that could be considered overpayments and if you were to add them all up, I think you'd see that the Leafs are in pretty good shape when compared to the rest of the league.

 

[ToneDog]

You dont consider Sandin to be bluechip?

Blue chip is a Dahlin, maker, heisksnen. Sandin is not there but he is our best piece. Would have been nice if lily could have made the jump already.

 

[razkaz]

Rantanen. Aho five years.

But regardless, I’d be perfectly fine with Marner signing a 3 year bridge deal under 7 million (like Point).

Imagine, right now, Dubas had 4 million to address the backup situation?

Rantanen, 6 years at 11.35% cap hit
Marner, 6 years at 13.37% cap hit

Marner is paid 1.6 million more than Rantanen. A lot of people are saying he is over paid by 1-1.5 million so what kind of backup would you be able to get for 2.3 million?

Also if they had done a bridge deal, Marner and Rielly would be looking at contracts at the same time. On top of having to sign an entire D corps next year plus resign Andersen and the other upcoming RFAs and then having Rielly and Marner coming up would be a nightmare

Just FYI, I don't agree with these guys getting this much but that's the new way contracts are going and the kids want the money now. You're paying them like superstars then ride the like superstars and make them earn their paycheck.

Load up the top line with Nylander-Matthews-Marner and put them out against Bostons top line

 

[ToneDog]

Leafs are luckily in a position where they aren't desperate for impact players. It's not a perfect roster, but it is among the best in the league. Dubas is in a fine position to make further tweaks and improve areas of weakness

Leafs are in a good position but more than a tweak is needed. It will be hard for this crew to take the next step this year the kids need more time IMO.