Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 2-1

[thewave]

they need a coach with clout. Someone undeniable.

This just sounds insane. We just had that and this team is going around in circles and can't compete at a high level with any consistency. It's so fundamentally flawed and it's the group or their attitude. Basically Dubas built a highly flawed hockey team that has been for the most part unwatchable this season.

It's a freaking joke, the Leafs team under Dubas is a joke that will never ever win.

 

[Eye Test]

How about a team that actually cycles the puck, wears down the other team and screens the goalies?

 

[34]

What’s really infuriating is that if we would’ve won against these 3 easy opponents we would’ve had an 11 point gap on Florida right now.

But now with Florida having 2 games in hand...they are going to win both and be 1 point apart.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Both of you gentlemen are exactly right. Lou knew what this team needed to take the next step--he brought in guys like Marleau and Hainsey, etc. If he had his way, he would have brought in the Thorntons and Niskanens of the world, etc. but there are cap limitations.

And Babcock--why do you think he visited Matthews in Arizona in the offseason? It was always to "smooth things over." If us fans on TV could see Matthews' eye-rolls when Babcock was telling him things, don't you think Babcock knows what's going on with his star players? Babcock is as sharp as they come--he knows everything about every single one of his men.

Babcock fully believed this was going to be a 5-7 year plan. Remember when he said, "there will be some pain"? He knew this team needed to learn how to play winning hockey, and it wouldn't be easy. Then the Leafs surprised everyone, made the playoffs, and took the Caps to the brink. At that point, the media, fans, and probably management decided--"screw the build, let's go all in"--which is why they strayed from the plan, brought in Tavares for big money, then ultimately fired Babcock because they weren't fulfilling the "win now" prophecy. Nothing has changed under Keefe. This team started out great under him, now look even worse than with Babcock.

This is on the players--they are like the criminals running the asylum. Babcock was a gatekeeper (and they disliked him for it) but it appears Dubas and Keefe are enablers--they are both part of the "too cool for school kids club" with the players and Shanahan is just all-in because he was seduced by Dubas' intellect and wanted to appear to be this young, progressive executive himself.

This Leafs team is young and extremely talented. But the mix is wrong and the leadership (meaning Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe) isn't willing to right the ship IMO and make the necessary decisions to advance the team--at least they haven't so far. This offseason will 100% tell if Shanny or Dubas truly learned anything yet, or if they are bullish to their own detriment.

Yep, an Leafs tried to take the short cut again by signing Tavares. That was the first contract that put everything out of whack.

Was a good signing in theory, but at the time, I admit, it didn't make sense to me.

You can rarely speed up a rebuild process. If the cap increases, the Leafs might be able to move some bodies and bring in what they need. As I've said from the start though, this is their core. Now signed for years. They either do it or they don't.

Some depth never hurt any team though. This team can't obtain it though due to the cap and large contract handcuffs.

 

[rumman]

This just sounds insane. We just had that and this team is going around in circles and can't compete at a high level with any consistency. It's so fundamentally flawed and it's the group or their attitude. Basically Dubas built a highly flawed hockey team that has been for the most part unwatchable this season.

It's a freaking joke, the Leafs team under Dubas is a joke that will never ever win.

of greater concern is having a team President that views this team's failures as something that is acceptable........hall passes for everyone.

 

[hobarth]

All a coach can do in today's NHL is teach, lead and try to motivate--but at the end of the day the players have to want to listen, conform and execute.

The Flyers are my favorite team but the Leafs are my second favorite, so these are the teams I've watched the most over the years--the Flyers going back to the 70s and Leafs going back to the mid-80s with Wendel, Iafrate and co.

Using the Flyers as an example--they are playing 100% better under Vigneault and his staff than they were under Hackstol (whom I have zero idea why the Leafs hired him as an assistant BTW). The core of the team is still the same, yet their play is night and day better--it's for one simple reason--they bought into what the coach was selling and they are executing his plan to precision. The current Flyers are doing all of the little things to win games--but they are often as boring as wallpaper to watch! The Leafs, on the other hand, are among the most exciting teams to watch in the league (along with the Avs) but it's crystal clear their game is flawed and they try to win by playing shinny hockey.

Until the core of star players are willing to accept that they can't "win their way" and are willing to TRULY listen to a coach and do what they are told--they will show flashes of brilliance yet lose out at the end of the day. Elite skill just isn't enough--ask Tampa Bay who got swept by Columbus last season.

The Leafs could have Scotty Bowman behind the bench but it won't matter if the players continue to just do what they want.

I think what we're seeing now is the Leaf players trying to adapt/embrace what Keefe is thinking is necessary to win beyond the regular season. Scoring alone isn't a Leaf problem yet every year around this time the offense dries up no matter the quality of the opposition. Last year, again, around this time TO played Arizona, the had like 10 or 11 regulars out of their lineup, TO lost and looked really bad in doing so. Also at this time last year TO lost to Ottawa after Ottawa traded Stone and Karlsson, it's a case of too little listening too late.

Right now it's a case of TO should just try to be what it is and see how far that will take them.

The last 3 games were extremely boring and if that's what TO needs to become to ultimately become successful I'd prefer to watch 82 exciting games and not worry about a possible 20 games of success in the playoffs.

 

[thewave]

of greater concern is having a team President that views this team's failures as something that is acceptable........hall passes for everyone.

Becase Dubas is tied directly to his success. When he took on a young minion such as Dubas to win, he basically put the proverbial noose around his own neck.

 

[TVs Frank]

The funny thing is, while this team is frustratingly inconsistent and has not played any where near cup-contender level, they almost certainly will make the playoffs because Florida has played even worse. And they will likely play Tampa in the first round, another supposedly high powered offensive team that is fundamentally flawed. So ironically, one of our most frustrating and at times mediocre regular seasons could see us win a playoff round for the first time in years.
Prediction: we make the playoffs, beat Tampa in 6, get wiped out by Boston in the Conference semis and Dubas and Shanahan declare victory and no big changes in the off-season.

 

[Superstar]

How about a team that actually cycles the puck, wears down the other team and screens the goalies?

That sounds like a lot of hard work.

 

[Boxscore]

I think what we're seeing now is the Leaf players trying to adapt/embrace what Keefe is thinking is necessary to win beyond the regular season. Scoring alone isn't a Leaf problem yet every year around this time the offense dries up no matter the quality of the opposition. Last year, again, around this time TO played Arizona, the had like 10 or 11 regulars out of their lineup, TO lost and looked really bad in doing so. Also at this time last year TO lost to Ottawa after Ottawa traded Stone and Karlsson, it's a case of too little listening too late.

Right now it's a case of TO should just try to be what it is and see how far that will take them.

The last 3 games were extremely boring and if that's what TO needs to become to ultimately become successful I'd prefer to watch 82 exciting games and not worry about a possible 20 games of success in the playoffs.

This is a very interesting, and fair, take--especially the bolded.

The Leafs have been one of my favorite teams since the mid-80s because I loved guys like Clark, Iafrate and Ramage--followed by Gilmour, Potvin, Sundin, etc. Then there was obviously the lull, but I still loved "The Leafs". But when they drafted Matthews it went to the next level--they suddenly became "must-watch TV" every night. Win or lose, the Leafs were pure entertainment during Matthews' rookie year. The miracle run, the playoffs, battling the Caps, etc.--amazing!

That said, are you TRULY content with watching the Harlem Globetrotters? An exciting, novelty team of magicians that entertain but never win anything of significance? If you are, I respect your honesty.

I am posing this question to myself--and I'm conflicted. Part of me desperately wants that rookie Matthews Leafs team back but part of me is willing to sacrifice some of the "skill" for a better-rounded team that can win when the money is on the line.

I can speak to this as well since the Flyers are "my team". They are playing GREAT hockey but they are boring as heck. I would 1000% rather watch the Leafs night in and night out because they are WAY MORE fun to watch. But the Flyers are a great "team."

You make a very interesting point hobarth.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

I think what we're seeing now is the Leaf players trying to adapt/embrace what Keefe is thinking is necessary to win beyond the regular season. Scoring alone isn't a Leaf problem yet every year around this time the offense dries up no matter the quality of the opposition. Last year, again, around this time TO played Arizona, the had like 10 or 11 regulars out of their lineup, TO lost and looked really bad in doing so. Also at this time last year TO lost to Ottawa after Ottawa traded Stone and Karlsson, it's a case of too little listening too late.

Right now it's a case of TO should just try to be what it is and see how far that will take them.

The last 3 games were extremely boring and if that's what TO needs to become to ultimately become successful I'd prefer to watch 82 exciting games and not worry about a possible 20 games of success in the playoffs.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Legendary]

The only coach that can get a response from these punks is Torterella IMO

 

[Kiwi]

How about a team that actually cycles the puck, wears down the other team and screens the goalies?

You have to pay a price to do that type of stuff

We like putting in the minimum amount of effort and hoping one of the skill guys creates something from nothing

Way less taxing that way

 

[Boxscore]

The only coach that can get a response from these punks is Torterella IMO

No chance. If you think Babcock is tough--Torts makes Babcock look like Keefe. Torts would torch these guys in the Toronto media and they'd hate life. This team needed a shot of tough love the second Nylander held out--they should have traded him to a dumpster fire team for assets--then told the other kids, "you're threatening to hold out too?"

Brian Burke was right when he said the chance for the Leafs to make a stand was with Nylander. Once they caved on him they were toast. Burke is not always right but he was right with that one.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

No chance. If you think Babcock is tough--Torts makes Babcock look like Keefe. Torts would torch these guys in the Toronto media and they'd hate life. This team needed a shot of tough love the second Nylander held out--they should have traded him to a dumpster fire team for assets--then told the other kids, "you're threatening to hold out too?"

Brian Burke was right when he said the chance for the Leafs to make a stand was with Nylander. Once they caved on him they were toast. Burke is not always right but he was right with that one.

That was my feeling too. Would have been some short term pain for long term gain. Fundamentally, it seemed wrong to give such big rewards to guys that hadn't really achieved anything. Tons of skill but where does that get you? A first round exit.

Once we gave in to Nylander, then Matthews and Marner knew they could dictate their own terms.

Willy was awful last year, but now he's looking great and a good contract.
Marner looked great last year, and we gave him a great contract and he's kinda faded after that.
Matthews looks great this year and puts the puck in the net, but.... he's not really a game-changer that seems able to put the team on his shoulders.

I wanted to see hometown discounts from all 3, so we'd have some better players to support them on D or in net or.... wherever.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

No chance. If you think Babcock is tough--Torts makes Babcock look like Keefe. Torts would torch these guys in the Toronto media and they'd hate life. This team needed a shot of tough love the second Nylander held out--they should have traded him to a dumpster fire team for assets--then told the other kids, "you're threatening to hold out too?"

Brian Burke was right when he said the chance for the Leafs to make a stand was with Nylander. Once they caved on him they were toast. Burke is not always right but he was right with that one.

Thank God the Leafs didnt purposely trade Nylander for scraps out of spite, as they'd be looking extremely stupid right about now if he was having this season on a different team

 

[De Montreal]

The funny thing is, while this team is frustratingly inconsistent and has not played any where near cup-contender level, they almost certainly will make the playoffs because Florida has played even worse. And they will likely play Tampa in the first round, another supposedly high powered offensive team that is fundamentally flawed. So ironically, one of our most frustrating and at times mediocre regular seasons could see us win a playoff round for the first time in years.
Prediction: we make the playoffs, beat Tampa in 6, get wiped out by Boston in the Conference semis and Dubas and Shanahan declare victory and no big changes in the off-season.

Tampa has speed, skills, size, experience, grit, good goalie and depth. Not sure I would call them that.

 

[hullsy47]

Yep, an Leafs tried to take the short cut again by signing Tavares. That was the first contract that put everything out of whack.

Was a good signing in theory, but at the time, I admit, it didn't make sense to me.

You can rarely speed up a rebuild process. If the cap increases, the Leafs might be able to move some bodies and bring in what they need. As I've said from the start though, this is their core. Now signed for years. They either do it or they don't.

Some depth never hurt any team though. This team can't obtain it though due to the cap and large contract handcuffs.

Every team wanted tavaras
We got him because of he wanted the leafs

 

[unitedstars87]

Want to see them with Rielly, Muzzin and Soup back before I close the book on them for this year.

Fair. But expecting 3 guys coming off significant injuries to save this teams seems also unfair.

 

[ULF_55]

1. Some of the Leafs had a very good road trip.
2. Some are saying everyone has to be better.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I think what we're seeing now is the Leaf players trying to adapt/embrace what Keefe is thinking is necessary to win beyond the regular season. Scoring alone isn't a Leaf problem yet every year around this time the offense dries up no matter the quality of the opposition. Last year, again, around this time TO played Arizona, the had like 10 or 11 regulars out of their lineup, TO lost and looked really bad in doing so. Also at this time last year TO lost to Ottawa after Ottawa traded Stone and Karlsson, it's a case of too little listening too late.

Right now it's a case of TO should just try to be what it is and see how far that will take them.

The last 3 games were extremely boring and if that's what TO needs to become to ultimately become successful I'd prefer to watch 82 exciting games and not worry about a possible 20 games of success in the playoffs.

So just was it that Keefe was doing? I didn’t see anything but the same terrible system. Dubas and his boy looking like they are about to show their warts. Keefe’s system is maddening and I haven’t seen this supposed change at all. ????

 

[Leafs1991]

Love the overreactions in this thread guys, keep up the negativity and not have any type of patience. I'm glad I don't live like you guys who are "so passionate" and are supposedly "true fans" cause you guys care so much about the team that any legitimate flaw or mistake that is made, bothers you guys so much lol

I watch games, all around the nhl, and guess what? Everyone makes mistakes, every team is flawed. Some more than others. You guys will enjoy the games way more if you decided to be more positive, you'll live a better life. Or if a mistake happens, who cares? You aren't playing, shit happens. When I watch those mistakes I shrug, shake my head and move on. You should all think about doing the same...

 

[ToneDog]

Fair. But expecting 3 guys coming off significant injuries to save this teams seems also unfair.

Not expecting them to save the team but given a few games, our D will be much better and Andy should be the better for it. Our offence should also get a boost if Rielly returns to form by the playoffs.

 

[TVs Frank]

Tampa has speed, skills, size, experience, grit, good goalie and depth. Not sure I would call them that.

I’d say a flaw or two was exposed last year when they were swept in 4 by Columbus in the first round. They are built for regular season success, but underachieve in the playoffs. We’d have a better shot at beating Tampa than Boston.

 

[De Montreal]

I’d say a flaw or two was exposed last year when they were swept in 4 by Columbus in the first round. They are built for regular season success, but underachieve in the playoffs. We’d have a better shot at beating Tampa than Boston.

It’s also a team that won at least two rounds in their previous three playoff appearances with pretty much the same core.