Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 0:2 TBay

[TheTotalPackage]

Got to watch this live last night. Some things that stood out:

-- Classy tribute for Johnny Bower. Many didn't get to see him play, but everyone loved him. He is like that grandpa everyone adores.

-- Tampa Bay is a well-oiled machine. My goodness are they a great team. The passing, breakouts, positionally. It was impressive to watch.

-- Marner was, by far, easily, the best Leaf on the night.

-- Vasilevskiy is an amazing goalie. What an embarrassment of riches for the Lightning. Two studs up front (Stamkos and Kucherov), a rock on D (Hedman) and a wall in net (Vasilevskiy). Jealous.

-- Save for the Matthews spin-o-rama in the first and the Kucherov to Stamkos one-timer in the third, all the big guns in the game were relatively quiet and didn't do much.

-- Rielly is without a doubt the Leafs best defenceman. He can get caught a couple times, but his positioning is generally quite good and he's the only player on the back end who can make something out of nothing.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The issue isn't why we can't beat TB, the issue is why we so rarely play as well as we're capable of.

because they are young?
because we don't have a lot experienced (better) depth yet and support?

it's there, and they can do it when they have more rest and more practice. in a year or two we'll be able to draw from it on short rest and all the travel.

(also happy new year, Gary)

 

[Trapper]

True and none of those play on our top 3 lines. Kadri is great when he plays with a burr under his saddle but he is not the answer nor do we want him to be.

We have the skill and we are able to rush. Once you are in the offensive zone though and there is no rush and the other team is in position to clog up the slot or take you on down low, what do you do? Where do you go? It can't always be just out. You have board battles, cycle and getting to the dirty areas. That's what we lack.
We could use a Polak/Carrick/Marincin upgrade on D. Not a superstar but some who can handle the other team gaining the zone with speed and break up their cycle. Then quickly transition the puck to forwards with minimal heart attacks.
Bozak needs to be upgraded to a C that rules the neutral zone. Forcing opposition nowhere or into turnovers. Then defer to Marner and work the zone heavy. With some offense as well.
Then a PWF. Like a Tkachuk for either Matthews or Marner.
Hyman should eventually transition to the Komarov role. Perfect matchup winger.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let's dismantle the one platform some are standing on ...

Andersen alone is responsible for one of the goals against, not Borgman, or Polak or Babcock.
For all the praise Andersen gets about his puck handling, he does screw up occasionally, and has been solely responsible for some of these goals against.

Additionally, it is not a great play when a defender takes a pass and skates into the offensive zone and rips a shot far wide of the net. The announcers are sometimes looking so hard to praise their favorites they overlook the results.

Andy gets a pass from me. Sure he screws up sometimes but that's part of the game and he's been great for us overall.

As far as ripping it far wide goes, yeah it sucks when that happens and the puck bounces back around to our end. Not just the Dmen either, Marner set up Kadri for a great chance last night and it's hard to tell from the TV angles but it looked like Kadri missed the net by a lot, just poor execution.

Good game for us overall though IMO, no complaints here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

because they are young?
because we don't have a lot experienced (better) depth yet and support?

it's there, and they can do it when they have more rest and more practice. in a year or two we'll be able to draw from it on short rest and all the travel.

(also happy new year, Gary)

Maybe, I have no idea what the problem is. We're not as young as we were last year and we actually have a fair number of vets on the team so I would have thought we'd be a bit more consistent then we've been. I'm not going to freak about it and start looking for scapegoats though, I'll just tell myself that it takes time and I hope they figure it out.

These last two games though, yes I know as Zeke said yesterday it's a small sample size but still, it's always educational to measure yourself against the best and these last two games just confirmed what I suspected, we're a distinct notch below the elite teams in the league. If we show up and play well, we have a shot and can win now and then if we get some bounces to go our way. If we don't play well though we have no hope and will be embarrassed most nights.

It's OK, we should be happy to be headed in the right direction but I wish people would stop talking about trading to fill holes and whee "cup run". Slow and steady wins the race, we're not winning anything this season though so we should continue building for the future, our time will come.

And Happy New Year to you too Daisy.

 

[ULF_55]

Andy gets a pass from me. Sure he screws up sometimes but that's part of the game and he's been great for us overall.

As far as ripping it far wide goes, yeah it sucks when that happens and the puck bounces back around to our end. Not just the Dmen either, Marner set up Kadri for a great chance last night and it's hard to tell from the TV angles but it looked like Kadri missed the net by a lot, just poor execution.

Good game for us overall though IMO, no complaints here.

Yes, they played close to their potential, and really 1 team goal against. Bolts had just ripped the Blue Jackets so they're playing well right now.

Yes, Andersen gets a pass, but he was responsible. No doubt he blames himself because it was on him. Like the other night, Marincin hits the ref and the puck ends up in the Leafs net. Marincin hit the ref, who in my opinion should have been along the boards not in the line of play, so yes it was on Marincin but he gets a pass there as sometimes things just don't work out.

 

[ULF_55]

It's OK, we should be happy to be headed in the right direction but I wish people would stop talking about trading to fill holes and whee "cup run". Slow and steady wins the race, we're not winning anything this season though so we should continue building for the future, our time will come.

I'd have no problem if they filled a hole on defense with a short term solution, not a 3 month rental, but someone who could play top 4 for the next 2-3 years. Not someone 35+ who might fall of the cliff. Relying on some AHL player to be the solution could easily blow up in your face, the AHL solutions should be long term solutions, but to put all your faith in them is dangerous.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Maybe, I have no idea what the problem is. We're not as young as we were last year and we actually have a fair number of vets on the team so I would have thought we'd be a bit more consistent then we've been. I'm not going to freak about it and start looking for scapegoats though, I'll just tell myself that it takes time and I hope they figure it out.

These last two games though, yes I know as Zeke said yesterday it's a small sample size but still, it's always educational to measure yourself against the best and these last two games just confirmed what I suspected, we're a distinct notch below the elite teams in the league. If we show up and play well, we have a shot and can win now and then if we get some bounces to go our way. If we don't play well though we have no hope and will be embarrassed most nights.

It's OK, we should be happy to be headed in the right direction but I wish people would stop talking about trading to fill holes and whee "cup run". Slow and steady wins the race, we're not winning anything this season though so we should continue building for the future, our time will come.

And Happy New Year to you too Daisy.

remember the people who are making this team go are in their second year of the team. 1/2 the vets on this team are meh, the other ones i think are doing the best they can (like Kadri - but he could benefit from not having Komarov whom I am sorry Shanahan and company dropped the ball, he should have been traded two years ago).

I don't think... okay -
honestly, I don't think these games determine anything.
We played (in my estimation) very well, we shut down a very hot line, and we lost on two mistakes by Andersen.. like I remember last year down the stretch, WSH spanked us and everyone went oohh no. (and we spanked WSH and it was all the excuses of the world). is it good to go "yah we can hang our hat with them" of course. i'm not dismissing that but at the same time, it's a tuesday night game.

and to your second point - we need to make trades to fill in holes, period. and honestly, if people want to be excited and think there could be a cup run (because anything is possible), I don't see why people shouldn't have that excitement and hope. we can do both. it can be slow and steady and if the team plays well, or catches on fire they could be like Florida, etc, in the past. it doesn't have to be either and considering I was that person last year - i just think let people be optimistic (or at least let them dream) about what they want. until we don't make the playoffs, we're a playoff team, and until we get eliminated, we can contend for a cup.

 

[Mugzy97]

I think the leafs played great, it was as exciting of a game you can watch without your team actually scoring a goal.

Pretty annoying refereeing though. I never complain about reffing but last night was bad. There were even a few offsides they missed that I could see as plain as day, not to mention multiple missed penalties.

 

[Pookie]

Tampa's confidence levels don't seem to be impacted by not making the playoffs last year.

Could argue it made them hungrier.

But who wants to argue about the value of "experience"?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'd have no problem if they filled a hole on defense with a short term solution, not a 3 month rental, but someone who could play top 4 for the next 2-3 years. Not someone 35+ who might fall of the cliff. Relying on some AHL player to be the solution could easily blow up in your face, the AHL solutions should be long term solutions, but to put all your faith in them is dangerous.

Depends on what we have to give up. I wouldn't want to give up futures because 2-3 years from now is when I think our cup window will be just opening up and if the guy we get will be done by then I'd rather just suffer more pain now to be stronger down the line. Maybe we get Dermott next season and Liljegren the season after that and who knows, maybe Rasanen the year after that. All I'm saying is that we're not quite ready for prime time yet so if the right deal comes along great, if not there is no reason to rush things.

and to your second point - we need to make trades to fill in holes, period. and honestly, if people want to be excited and think there could be a cup run (because anything is possible), I don't see why people shouldn't have that excitement and hope. we can do both. it can be slow and steady and if the team plays well, or catches on fire they could be like Florida, etc, in the past. it doesn't have to be either and considering I was that person last year - i just think let people be optimistic (or at least let them dream) about what they want. until we don't make the playoffs, we're a playoff team, and until we get eliminated, we can contend for a cup.

Of course. As soon as the playoffs start I will be dreaming of the cup just as every fan should be doing and until we're eliminated we have a shot, just like any other team. I'm just saying let's stay real and not piss away our future in an attempt to win now which will more than likely turn out to be futile and jurt us down the road.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Sometime's the teaching element and the sheltering element are forgotton by win at all cost fans.

For example people *****, whine and moan about Leo getting ice time on the PP, maybe stop and think why? Its not because Leo is threat, maybe its because Babcock wants one of the young stars to step up and take that time away. People ***** about the entitled locker room of the Muskoka 5 but when Babcock try's to instill a little hard work reward system, people cant see the forest through the tree's.

Right now Babcock is 100% about developing a great base that these core players can lean on in years to come. *****ing about Babcock being the teacher right now because he doesn't do the line match ups you think is best or play Matthews 30 minutes a night is really a good example of short sighted fan syndrome.

Its a process people, sit back and watch these kids develop into something special.

Think people, think.

The other side of that coin is destroying the confidence of a young player when he plays very well (Kapanen, Leivo) but can’t crack the lineup because his coach prefers playing grinders (Martin, Moore) who do little to help the team. Or continually relegating youngsters like Marner and Nylander to the 4th line where underachieving Bozak, Kadri never see that treatment. Or saddling our star with plugs Brown and Hyman for a half dozen games where said stars confidence eroded to the point he’s still recovering from it. I understand the process dude and no matter the times you use cuss words, clarity is not achieved if you cannot accept that Babcock has not been perfect in this process.

 

[Bluelines]

Marner set up Kadri for a great chance last night and it's hard to tell from the TV angles but it looked like Kadri missed the net by a lot, just poor execution.

There you go again hating on Kadri, why you gotta dis my boy?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tampa's confidence levels don't seem to be impacted by not making the playoffs last year.

Could argue it made them hungrier.

But who wants to argue about the value of "experience"?

Right. Because the players on TB are severely lacking in experience, is that what you're implying?

Knowing you Pookie, we'll be hearing from you about how dumb the Boyle trade was for what, another 6 years or so? Just like you'll still be telling us about Kadri's suspension for another 6 years.

I'm happy myself that we got the playoff experience last season and if Boyle was what it took to get us there, it was well worth the price. Despite the fact that we could be better IMO, 10th overall is still huge progress and I'm happy to be where we are. But oh that's right, you predicted we wouldn't make the playoffs until 2020, maybe that's why you don't like the Boyle trade, it threw off your "schedule".

 

[Daisy Jane]

Depends on what we have to give up. I wouldn't want to give up futures because 2-3 years from now is when I think our cup window will be just opening up and if the guy we get will be done by then I'd rather just suffer more pain now to be stronger down the line. Maybe we get Dermott next season and Liljegren the season after that and who knows, maybe Rasanen the year after that. All I'm saying is that we're not quite ready for prime time yet so if the right deal comes along great, if not there is no reason to rush things.



Of course. As soon as the playoffs start I will be dreaming of the cup just as every fan should be doing and until we're eliminated we have a shot, just like any other team. I'm just saying let's stay real and not piss away our future in an attempt to win now which will more than likely turn out to be futile and jurt us down the road.

for me - we need to make moves period.
so if we have to give up futures to have a better team down the road, give up futures to do it. i've always say this and i'll continue to do so. not every aspect of this team is going to be drafted, and i think that we as a fanbase need to accept that. Even if it is Dermot + Lilly there are still holes. There are holes up front. I'd like more experience (and before anyone says it's not important, Tampa Bay has a 4 time cup winner on their 4th line, if you can make it work financially do it).

i also think as much as people want to be "future, patience, etc" - you don't want to hurt the team you have developing now. you need to make moves that help them just as much as you need to make moves to help the team down the road. sometimes you make moves to benefit the future. this team right now needs to make a little bit more moves to let this team get the knowledge, and experience they need to make deep runs. even if the deep run is the 2nd round sweep by Tampa or a game seven heartbreaker whatever, if they get it in now they'll be better for it later. Jake + Kadri were some of our better players during the playoffs last year, and they were the ones who were rookies in 2013,. i want a lot more been there, done that miles in Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, etc's boots.

 

[justafan22]

They're likely a playoff team but the question is are they anything more than a 1st round exit team, which right now I don't see them as anything but.

Is that worth trading futures?

 

[CabanaBoy5]

I'm usually pretty happy when we play as well as we're capable of and I think we came pretty close to that last night. We were outclassed but I wouldn't say "comfortably". No shame losing to a better team and TB is better, much better. It was a battle of the #1 team against the #10 team, both teams played up to something like 85% of their potential IMO, the better team won and I can live with that. The issue isn't why we can't beat TB, the issue is why we so rarely play as well as we're capable of.

The game against Vegas is an example of what I'm talking about, now that sucked and there's no excuse for that IMO. Like I said before, play the way we did last night and we'll win a lot of games. The question is, what do we have to do to get to the point where we play with full effort and give a good showing of ourselves most nights (like Vegas does) instead of where we're at now when we're grossly inconsistent and we can't count on our team showing up for any given game.

Put it another way, our goal for now shouldn't be to be better than TB (or anyone else). Forget TB, we're simply not in their league so we should be competing against only ourselves and the goal should be to be as good as we can be on a much more consistent basis. I have no idea why we can't be more consistent, if Vegas can do it we should be able to do it as well. Until we figure that out we're going to have problems.

I agree wholeheartedly. And whose responsibility is it to figure that out? The players, Babcock, Lou? I say a huge determinant has to be our “elite” coach, and thus far he hasn’t.

 

[Bluelines]

The other side of that coin is destroying the confidence of a young player when he plays very well (Kapanen, Leivo) but can’t crack the lineup because his coach prefers playing grinders (Martin, Moore) who do little to help the team. Or continually relegating youngsters like Marner and Nylander to the 4th line where underachieving Bozak, Kadri never see that treatment. Or saddling our star with plugs Brown and Hyman for a half dozen games where said stars confidence eroded to the point he’s still recovering from it. I understand the process dude and no matter the times you use cuss words, clarity is not achieved if you cannot accept that Babcock has not been perfect in this process.

So do you want players who mope around whine when times are tough when they don't immediately get the ice time the fans think they deserve or do you want players who can put that distraction away and play harder? Do you want players who think they know better than Babcock or players who trust in his leadership and buy into the program.

No one has been perfect in this process, especially fans who want the glory too soon. too fast. before the hard work is done.

Cuss, cuss, cuss, cuss, cuss and more cussing!

 

[ACC1224]

I'm a bit surprised that people are positive. I felt that we were comfortably outclassed in pretty much every facet of the game.

Didn't look that way in house. Switch goalies and the outcome would have been different, IMO.

 

[Bluelines]

They're likely a playoff team but the question is are they anything more than a 1st round exit team, which right now I don't see them as anything but.

Is that worth trading futures?

Depends on the team they face.

 

[Daisy Jane]

They're likely a playoff team but the question is are they anything more than a 1st round exit team, which right now I don't see them as anything but.

Is that worth trading futures?

okay let's twist this around.

what would benefit the team for the future.
making a trade for a defenseman (or another forward) that is around their age group they can start bonding and getting that whole "we team, rah rah" now, potentially, make it to the first round, have have that shared "we wanna do better next year vibe because of shared memories." and they are already used to Toronto, they've already moved, etc.

or
going "well i don't wanna trade futures so we'll see what happens down the road."

make hay while the sun is shining.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

So do you want players who mope around whine when times are tough when they don't immediately get the ice time the fans think they deserve or do you want players who can put that distraction away and play harder? Do you want players who think they know better than Babcock or players who trust in his leadership and buy into the program.

No one has been perfect in this process, especially fans who want the glory too soon. too fast. before the hard work is done.

Cuss, cuss, cuss, cuss, cuss and more cussing!

Lol you’re right, cussing helps. Btw, agree about the mopers, but human nature dictates a little resentment at perceived injustice.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree wholeheartedly. And whose responsibility is it to figure that out? The players, Babcock, Lou? I say a huge determinant has to be our “elite” coach, and thus far he hasn’t.

I agree. When a team is playing so inconsistently it's hard to argue the coach is blameless, in fact that's probably the first place to look. On the other hand, we're 10th overall so I'm willing to stay patient and give him a pass for another year or two as long as he keeps moving us up the standings.

 

[Gary Nylund]

okay let's twist this around.

what would benefit the team for the future.
making a trade for a defenseman (or another forward) that is around their age group they can start bonding and getting that whole "we team, rah rah" now, potentially, make it to the first round, have have that shared "we wanna do better next year vibe because of shared memories." and they are already used to Toronto, they've already moved, etc.

or
going "well i don't wanna trade futures so we'll see what happens down the road."

make hay while the sun is shining.

If we trade for a young guy that projects to be a valuable part of our team for years to come, that's one thing. Letting 3 pending UFA's walk for nothing (or god forbid, spend futures on even more short-term assets), that's frivolous spending that will only hurt us in the future.

I'd also say that to say "see what happens down the road" is a bit flippant and implies we have no idea what the future may hold. I'd argue we have a very good idea what the future holds for us, look at Matthews and Marner etc., look at how Dermott and Liljegren etc. are playing with the Marlies and it's clear to me that we're likely to be a much better team a few years from now and it will be a shame if we don't have the assets to acquire the final piece in the puzzle at that time because we shot our bullets now in a premature attempt to "make hay". JMHO.

 

[Koolboss]

There you go again hating on Kadri, why you gotta dis my boy?

The puck never got to KADRI, not sure what angle he is talking about. What a hater lmao