Leafs going forward

[thewave]

We have some very nice pieces, but not a team. They haven't exactly meshed well.

Need a coach to form the collection of pieces into a team, and then we can find out what we are missing.

First job this offseason is new GM, second job is new coach.

See I agree with you here, they new to find the coach with the system and players to become the butter for the lines.

The team itself does not need to panic but the upper staff should for certain.

Some key players need move for certain as well. Franson For instance has probably directly resulted in as many as 5 loses this year.

 

[Dragao6]

for everyone that thinks giving Phaneuf 7M for whatever years and the C just because hes "the best we have" and not try to trade him just follows the same mentality this management has. This mentaity will result in similar seasons in the coming years. Id prefer to trade him at deadline when he was having a good year and get somethign good for him or letting him walk. Hes not top 2 material, def not captain material so lets stop disguising this. Use the 7M to get 2 solid Dmen that can carry more workload, make less mistakes, give some leadership and help the youngsters.....and 3/4 years only in contract so they are easier to deal with in case a change is required!! now were stuck with this deadweight and cant bring anyone else to make team more solid!!

Prob gonna lose Bolland because of this!!

 

[ALine]

for everyone that thinks giving Phaneuf 7M for whatever years and the C just because hes "the best we have" and not try to trade him just follows the same mentality this management has. This mentaity will result in similar seasons in the coming years. Id prefer to trade him at deadline when he was having a good year and get somethign good for him or letting him walk. Hes not top 2 material, def not captain material so lets stop disguising this. Use the 7M to get 2 solid Dmen that can carry more workload, make less mistakes, give some leadership and help the youngsters.....and 3/4 years only in contract so they are easier to deal with in case a change is required!! now were stuck with this deadweight and cant bring anyone else to make team more solid!!

Prob gonna lose Bolland because of this!!

Who would you get?

 

[LeafsandSharksfan]

Think about this.

Kessel a top ten pt getter and sniper

JVR a very young capable winger and former #2 pick

Kadri a player I feel is at odds with the coach

Rielly bright future

Gardiner needs seen in better system

Gunner stable workhorse

Gleason hard nosed workhorse

Lupul passionate but clearly at odds with Randy

Bernier!

Just from that you can certainly work things out. It's not a bad foundation at all.

This team is a minimum five years away from championship contention. Kessel, Lupul, Gleason, and even Gunner will be well out of their prime by then, and I doubt they'd even want to stick around through another rebuild. If you wait until the situation gets ugly, it hurts their value.

 

[Rielly4]

The reality is Phaneuf is not a bad d man.. Regardless of the letter on his jersey hes a good d man and any team would want him in there top 4... 7 mils a lot but the caps going up and its worth having him... I would trade him for the right return but thats the same with everyone on the team.. Even Rielly could be traded for Tavares...

But trading Dion for a bag of pucks would be dumb, but im confident Nonis wont hes a very smart patient GM.. Hes honest with himself and he knows what hes got, obviously Clarkson has not turned out well but in the offseason it looked like a good signing if he can get back to near his Jersey form it will be worth it cause he was a beast.

Bozaks definitely not a dynamic offensive player but he is a good puck support player and a good two way Center... But we need a difference maker offensively up the middle.. Kadris not exactly that and neither is Bozak... I dont even care if the difference maker up the middle plays with Kessel, doesnt matter but we need a C who is dynamic offensively and can put up points and create for his line. Kadri may become that, but right now hes just an average 2nd line center who can put up 50-60 points. I would say go for a good C and go for a good RHD with size and mobility. Fix the blue line, fix us up the middle, get rid of Carlyle get a more offense puck possesion breakout neutral zone minded coach instead of just work ethic forechecking and a defensive zone scheme that leaves no options to breakout too when we gain possesion.

Trading Gardiner for anything less then a really good C whos young and has lots of offense will be a mistake.

 

[Jacques Trap*]

"....for adults who are sane and not gone batty..."

Yeah...you're on the wrong website.

 

[Hanta Yo]

there is something very rotten with this group of players. Yes, management has some fault in this (I'd say the least however...) and so does Carlyle, but there is something toxic about this group. Too many players that the team relies on that just don't seem to care, or don't show up when it mattered the most.

Very few untouchables at this point.

 

[agropop]

Tinkering with middle 6 forwards and bottom 4 dmen would be like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Our starting 5 has to be remade, we need a new core, a new identity.

Bernier and Reilly are the only two I'd keep safe.

 

[Rielly4]

Tinkering with middle 6 forwards and bottom 4 dmen would be like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Our starting 5 has to be remade, we need a new core, a new identity.

Bernier and Reilly are the only two I'd keep safe.

So you are referring to Kessel JVR and Phaneuf?

I would try and move out Franson Lupul and Bozak before those guys.

 

[drw02]

Should axe both Carlyle and Nonis. Leafs do have some solid players to build around, a good coach can change a losing culture. This team does not play hard for Carlyle, they clearly do not like him. Nonis should be fired for the Clarkson contract by itself. And if not that then for Phaneuf's new contract. Def get rid of Lupul, he's totally the lazy, entitled personality that kills team chemistry. Revamp the scouting department and stop trading draft picks all the time.

 

[agropop]

So you are referring to Kessel JVR and Phaneuf?

I would try and move out Franson Lupul and Bozak before those guys.

I'd try to move them first as well, I don't disagree.

 

[leburn98]

If I was in charge of this team, I would:


Fire Carlyle

To be fair, I do not place all of the blame solely on Carlyle. The players have to be held accountable too and ultimately the coach can not teach smarts and common sense. With that said, I feel Carlyle has been stubborn in certain areas.

- Not playing players to their strength: Repeatedly playing one or two of Orr/McLaren when clearly they were not being as effective as last year. He also does not put players in a position to succeed or leave well enough alone. Example: Holland plays great on a line with Lupul and Raymond, shows some hustle and chemistry, so what does he do? Puts Holland on the fourth line. Bodie shows a ton of heart and adds a physical element, what does he do? Replaces him with Orr.

- Carlyle's Doghouse: Whether it was MacArthur/Grabovski in the past or Reimer/Lupul/Kadri in the present, it is no surprise that he loves to put certain players in his doghouse and keep them there regardless of what they do.


Strip Captaincy from Phaneuf:

Again, I do not blame Phaneuf exclusively. If anything I believe Dion has had a good season (recent skid excluded). It is clear to me that he cannot handle being the Captain in this hotbed market and firmly believe that this would only benefit Phaneuf.

They need to give the captaincy to a player that can handle the scrutiny and pressure that goes with being a captain in Toronto. Whether that is someone who is already on this team or an veteran acquisition in the summer it needs to be done.

Finally, for those that think you can't strip the captaincy without trading a player, look no further than Patrick Marleau, Patrik Elias, and Milan Hejduk, the latter of which actually gave up the captaincy. Also, if Dion is a good leader like the players say he is, then a 'C' on your chest isn't going to change that.


Leave the top line in tacked:

There is no point in completely going nutso here. This line has been arguably top 5 line all season, and while people may like to get on Kessel for his latest struggles, he is not the issue here. Our 2nd line scoring needs to step up and not rely on Phil game-in, game-out.


Revamp Scouting staff:

Seriously when was the last time Leafs drafted a diamond in the rough? Kaberle? You would think that a team like the Leafs with the money that they have, restricted by a cap system, would apply those funds towards a stellar scouting staff. Let's poach staff from Detroit, Chicago, San Jose and St. Louis.


Trade Franson, acquire a top-4, minute eating d-man:

Let's be honest here, while everyone here loves to crap on Dion Phaneuf, who do you put out there when you are trying to defend a lead or a last minute surge?

In my opinion, we don't have a dependable 2nd pairing that can relieve our top pairing. This is apparently evident when facing deep teams that have more than one line who can score. Dion and Gunner can only shutdown so many players. That is why this team needs someone who can log 15-20 steady, non-flashy minutes a night. The ideal scenario is to acquire a top 2 dman and place Gunnerson on the 2nd pairing with Reilly/Gardiner.


Trade Clarkson:

Admittedly, I was one of the few that liked the signing. It was what we needed, a heart-and-sole guy who will put everything on the line to win. The problem is that the pressure to perform, matched with the contract has been too much for him. I mean come on, the fans and media were labeling him as the next Wendel Clark. As a Leaf fan growing up, you can't honestly tell me that does not put a huge amount of pressure on him. It is my believe that Clarkson isn't a bad player, but rather trying to live up to the contract by doing too much. I'm not expecting a Clarkson who is dangling around d-men. I want a Clarkson who will crash and bang, stir up trouble and pot 15-20 goals a season. Leave the dangles to JVR and Kessel.

Now despite my willingness to trade him, I am still willing to give him another chance. Perhaps Clarkson after this season will assess what he needs to do and just do what he needs to do. Also we have seen players bounce back in their 2nd years after signing a big contract.

Also, for those who will say "but his contract make's him untradeable". If Shawn Horcoff can be traded, so too can Clarkson.


Re-sign Bolland to a 1-year deal:

Bolland is one of those guys we need on this team. He's a guy that knows what it takes to win and knows his role on it. With that said, his injury history should not be ignored and we still do not know exactly how his latest injury has effected him. I would be willing to sign him to a 1 year deal at 5 mil if that is what it takes.


Make a splash:

Now this could be tied to a deal for a top pairing d-man, but I feel the Leafs management need to show that they mean business. I would look to package some of the following in Lupul, Kadri, perhaps prospects in exchange for a legit top six foward who can not only score, but can be responsible in his own end. Essentially we need a 2nd line that can score but is not a liability. Of course I would also consider moving Gardiner + for a top 2 d-man.


Re-sign Raymond and Kulemin if deal is right:

I would look to resign these guys, only if the deals make sense. If they want too much, then let them walk.


Release/Trade McClement, Orr, McLaren:

At this point we have enough young players that could fill the roles, while being cheaper. Smith, Holland, Bodie, D'Amigo, Ashton are all guys who could be placed in a third or fourth line role. Not to mention everyone of these guys would be more effective than all three.

Trade Reimer/Acquire veteran backup:

It's clear that Reimer does not want to be a backup for the Leafs, nor do I see the commitment/mental focus there to be one . I see no point in continuing this next season. Bernier is the obvious starter and what this team needs is a goaltender that knows his role but at the same time can fill in if the chance arises. Emery and Elliott would be ideal choices, but perhaps MacIntyre could be an option if all else fails.

Projected lines if I had my way:

Scenario 1:
Traded/Removed: Kadri, Clarkson, McClement, Orr, McLaren, Franson, Gardiner, Reimer

Forwards:
JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Bolland-Top 6
Raymond-Holland-Kulemin
D'Amigo-Smith-Bodie

Defense:
Top 2/Gunnerson-Phaneuf
Rielly-Gunnerson/Top 4
MacWilliam/Finn/Granberg/Brennan-Gleason

Goalies:
Bernier
Veteran Backup/MacIntyre

Scenario 2:
Traded/Removed: Lupul, Kulemin, McClement, Orr, McLaren, Franson, Gardiner, Reimer

Forwards:
JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Top 6-Bolland-Kadri
Raymond-Holland-Clarkson
D'Amigo-Smith-Bodie

Defense:
Top 2/Gunnerson-Phaneuf
Rielly-Gunnerson/Top 4
MacWilliam/Finn/Granberg/Brennan-Gleason

Goalies:
Bernier
Veteran Backup/MacIntyre

 

[Ratboy]

"....for adults who are sane and not gone batty..."

Yeah...you're on the wrong website.

Pretty much, how many Leafs fans are feeling sane as of late?

 

[Teeder9]

Don't mean to sound condescending but when buildings collapse usually there is something wrong with the core.

This core has collapsed three times now.

Why should we build the next building with the same core?

The cement hasn't dried yet and the steel support beams weren't that good. Just need to use some paint. Fix that right up

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Agree with the OP 100%

The team's struggles seem psychological - ship out the current leadership group, starting with Carlyle and limiting Phaneuf's responsibilities. Not sure I have much faith in the management group either after this past season. From what I understand, they have an all-star group there but maybe its time to start stripping it all down and not hiring so many cooks to work in the kitchen next time.

Next, implement a system thats conducive to limiting goals against and mitigates risk, then overhaul the D

 

[oldtimerhockey]

Leiweke is going to drop some axes on these clowns at multiple levels.

 

[Macman]

On-ice issues aside, part of the problem with this organization is the crowd, which for decades has been the quietest in hockey. Last night was a must-win game and instead of firing the team up like crowds in Montreal and Chicago do, the crowd at the ACC sat there like zombies. TO is supposed to be the centre of the hockey universe and most of the time the crowd behaves like they've never seen a game before.

 

[CelticDruid]

The coach lost this team the moment they bought out Grabovski and did not sign Macarthur - two popular leafs that brought much needed second line scoring etc. Clarkson, became the missing link , forever in the minds of the rest of the leaf players ,as the player who cost them two of their team mates, struck it rich and did nothing for it - all at the expense of Mac and Grabo.

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

Leiweke is going to drop some axes on these clowns at multiple levels.

If he's going to do it, I hope he does it sooner than later. Preferably right after the season ends. That gives the new GM time to get the coach he wants. Leafs seem to make these changes mid-season so the new GM is stuck with the old coach and he can't really make the roster changes he wants until the following off-season.

 

[Alexanderthe89]

I'd like to see MacIntyre get a start before the season ends. He deserves it.

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

On-ice issues aside, part of the problem with this organization is the crowd, which for decades has been the quietest in hockey. Last night was a must-win game and instead of firing the team up like crowds in Montreal and Chicago do, the crowd at the ACC sat there like zombies. TO is supposed to be the centre of the hockey universe and most of the time the crowd behaves like they've never seen a game before.

They have to do something about that empty seats to start the period. Even in the playoffs they were taking their time getting back to their seats! Is there an Eyes Wide Shut party going on during intermissions or something? Where the hell are they going that's so much fun?

 

[Trapper]

There's no surefire way to build a contender, as Edmonton can attest, so I won't completely **** on Burke and Nonis for the route they took in trying to get there, but I think it's obvious now that it's not going to work with this group. We have to sell high on our players now before they start wanting out and our bargaining position worsens. From there, we can start fresh in assembling a new core, I would hope with an emphasis on center and defense.

Reilly I'd probably hang on to, anyone else is fair game.

Edit: And completely new coaching, management, and scouting, obviously

Edmonton built the same way the Leafs did that's why they fail.
Other than RNH, they drafted a core of wingers. Hall,Eberle,Yakupov,Gagner(who is a winger 1st but plays center) and traded for Perron.
While teams like Pittsburgh,Chicago,SJ,Colorado,Boston built down the middle.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Follow the leaf of LA, St. Louis, Anahiem, Tampa Bay who let the success timeline naturally come to them instead of trying to force it to early.

These teams just a few seasons ago dealt out valuable players for futures and became better because of it.

Dealing out guys like Kaberle, Beauchemin, Versteeg was a step in the right direction but we needed to recylcle valuable players for another season or two. Because we didn't it's now showing everywhere in the organization.

Toronto has tried to expedite this rebuild before it was ready and now our assets reflect that going right down to our prospect pool.

The combination of assets lost by not dealing out Grabo + Cmac plus acquiring Bolland + Liles is massive.

That is somewhere around 4 picks in the 20 to 50 range over a few drafts + more because we could have had cap space to bring in other players who also could have been recycled.

Toronto need a 2 but more likely 3 or 4 year plan. We need to deal out guys who have value next season like Lupul, Gunnarson, Gleason and possibly even Kadri to load up on cheap prospects and high draft picks who can all come along at the same time.

Drafting a guy like Rielly or a top pick next year is great but unless we get 2 or 3 high impact players coming along at the same time it's only a marginal improvement adding 1 piece at a time.

Doughty had Voynov + Simmonds + Schenn added over a few short drafts.

Boston had Lucic, Bergeron, Marchand in one draft.

Chicago had Toews + Kane in back to back drafts.

Toronto needs to simply worry about loading up on as many assets which starts with the draft for at least the next season but probably even 2 then we can worry about filling in specific holes later on.

 

[Teeder9]

If I was in charge of this team, I would:


Fire Carlyle

To be fair, I do not place all of the blame solely on Carlyle. The players have to be held accountable too and ultimately the coach can not teach smarts and common sense. With that said, I feel Carlyle has been stubborn in certain areas.

- Not playing players to their strength: Repeatedly playing one or two of Orr/McLaren when clearly they were not being as effective as last year. He also does not put players in a position to succeed or leave well enough alone. Example: Holland plays great on a line with Lupul and Raymond, shows some hustle and chemistry, so what does he do? Puts Holland on the fourth line. Bodie shows a ton of heart and adds a physical element, what does he do? Replaces him with Orr.

- Carlyle's Doghouse: Whether it was MacArthur/Grabovski in the past or Reimer/Lupul/Kadri in the present, it is no surprise that he loves to put certain players in his doghouse and keep them there regardless of what they do.


Strip Captaincy from Phaneuf:

Again, I do not blame Phaneuf exclusively. If anything I believe Dion has had a good season (recent skid excluded). It is clear to me that he cannot handle being the Captain in this hotbed market and firmly believe that this would only benefit Phaneuf.

They need to give the captaincy to a player that can handle the scrutiny and pressure that goes with being a captain in Toronto. Whether that is someone who is already on this team or an veteran acquisition in the summer it needs to be done.

Finally, for those that think you can't strip the captaincy without trading a player, look no further than Patrick Marleau, Patrik Elias, and Milan Hejduk, the latter of which actually gave up the captaincy. Also, if Dion is a good leader like the players say he is, then a 'C' on your chest isn't going to change that.


Leave the top line in tacked:

There is no point in completely going nutso here. This line has been arguably top 5 line all season, and while people may like to get on Kessel for his latest struggles, he is not the issue here. Our 2nd line scoring needs to step up and not rely on Phil game-in, game-out.


Revamp Scouting staff:

Seriously when was the last time Leafs drafted a diamond in the rough? Kaberle? You would think that a team like the Leafs with the money that they have, restricted by a cap system, would apply those funds towards a stellar scouting staff. Let's poach staff from Detroit, Chicago, San Jose and St. Louis.


Trade Franson, acquire a top-4, minute eating d-man:

Let's be honest here, while everyone here loves to crap on Dion Phaneuf, who do you put out there when you are trying to defend a lead or a last minute surge?

In my opinion, we don't have a dependable 2nd pairing that can relieve our top pairing. This is apparently evident when facing deep teams that have more than one line who can score. Dion and Gunner can only shutdown so many players. That is why this team needs someone who can log 15-20 steady, non-flashy minutes a night. The ideal scenario is to acquire a top 2 dman and place Gunnerson on the 2nd pairing with Reilly/Gardiner.


Trade Clarkson:

Admittedly, I was one of the few that liked the signing. It was what we needed, a heart-and-sole guy who will put everything on the line to win. The problem is that the pressure to perform, matched with the contract has been too much for him. I mean come on, the fans and media were labeling him as the next Wendel Clark. As a Leaf fan growing up, you can't honestly tell me that does not put a huge amount of pressure on him. It is my believe that Clarkson isn't a bad player, but rather trying to live up to the contract by doing too much. I'm not expecting a Clarkson who is dangling around d-men. I want a Clarkson who will crash and bang, stir up trouble and pot 15-20 goals a season. Leave the dangles to JVR and Kessel.

Now despite my willingness to trade him, I am still willing to give him another chance. Perhaps Clarkson after this season will assess what he needs to do and just do what he needs to do. Also we have seen players bounce back in their 2nd years after signing a big contract.

Also, for those who will say "but his contract make's him untradeable". If Shawn Horcoff can be traded, so too can Clarkson.


Re-sign Bolland to a 1-year deal:

Bolland is one of those guys we need on this team. He's a guy that knows what it takes to win and knows his role on it. With that said, his injury history should not be ignored and we still do not know exactly how his latest injury has effected him. I would be willing to sign him to a 1 year deal at 5 mil if that is what it takes.


Make a splash:

Now this could be tied to a deal for a top pairing d-man, but I feel the Leafs management need to show that they mean business. I would look to package some of the following in Lupul, Kadri, perhaps prospects in exchange for a legit top six foward who can not only score, but can be responsible in his own end. Essentially we need a 2nd line that can score but is not a liability. Of course I would also consider moving Gardiner + for a top 2 d-man.


Re-sign Raymond and Kulemin if deal is right:

I would look to resign these guys, only if the deals make sense. If they want too much, then let them walk.


Release/Trade McClement, Orr, McLaren:

At this point we have enough young players that could fill the roles, while being cheaper. Smith, Holland, Bodie, D'Amigo, Ashton are all guys who could be placed in a third or fourth line role. Not to mention everyone of these guys would be more effective than all three.

Trade Reimer/Acquire veteran backup:

It's clear that Reimer does not want to be a backup for the Leafs, nor do I see the commitment/mental focus there to be one . I see no point in continuing this next season. Bernier is the obvious starter and what this team needs is a goaltender that knows his role but at the same time can fill in if the chance arises. Emery and Elliott would be ideal choices, but perhaps MacIntyre could be an option if all else fails.

Projected lines if I had my way:

All of this is fine and good, but, it doesn't help. Look at it like this:

The cap is likely around 69m for next season and as far as I can see won't spike for a couple years at least due to the Canadian dollar. Canadian teams actually bring in just under half of all the money in the NHL. We have 22m and need to sign 9 players. We could trade Franson and Reimer who will get a bit of an increase and sign lower cost players/ use prospects, but then how much better are we next year from those positions? See where this is going? We don't have the money to upgrade our team. if the cap doesn't rise substantially next season, and from all accounts it won't, where will the money come from to re-sign Bernier and Kadri? Do we trade them too?

The idea that Phaneuf at 7m, Clarkson at 5m, and Lupul at 5m was sustainable for this team to get better was idiotic. By the time we can get better from within these players will have been long past helping, and now we only have overpaid players taking high-end positions on the team, and more than likely no way to get rid of them without paying dearly to do it. Back to 2006 with the Muskoka 5.

The biggest argument on here for not trading Phaneuf is that it is hard to find a top pairing dman. Fair enough. They usually end it with having to find him a partner. Also, fair enough. Which top pairing partner wants to play for nothing since we have no money unless we have no depth, which is quite another problem to have. See the position we're in. We aren't a coaching change away from winning. That's fantasy talk from fans who romanticize these players. We aren't as bad as we've been for the past 8 games, but we were never as good as our record before this either, and that was still a team fighting for a playoff spot spending to the cap. We weren't 10 minutes away from beating the Bruins last year. We were 15 minutes away from losing to them, and nothing has changed

 

[colchar]

I think the teams in need of a management and coaching overhaul while the player base is fundamentally ok, but needs improvement.

This group failed under Wilson, flamed out in game seven last year, and is now flaming out under Carlyle. It is obvious that the players are the biggest problem and that big changes need to be made.