Leafs D corp not that bad

[IPS]

Leafs have the best forward group in the league, and probably the worst defense. I do not consider Jake Gardiner to be a quality NHL defenseman. Anyone with a basic understanding of the game and a set of working eyeballs realizes what a liability he is. Plays scared, doesn’t understand situational hockey, no physical presence and wilts at big time moments (see game 7 performance -5... LOL)

I am not going to sit and argue whether Reilly is a top pairing dman. He is a player with some major limitations to his game.He is certainly not a number one.

Dermott is going to be a quality NHL dman for a long time. Some regression is expected here. It’s part of being a young NHL dman. Love the kid though, and would be a #6 right now on any serious contender.

Hainsey is a #6/7 but will be forced to play up the lineup.

Everything else is a steaming pile of garbage. Zaitsev is an AHL caliber dman on an albatross of a contract, Carrick, Holl, etc are all scrubs. The Leafs offense is going to hide a ton of flaws, but later in the season it will come undone. This defense core is a joke. If boy wonder doesn’t trade Nylander for a dman he is out of his mind.

I agree with your general sentiments but there really is no need to attach such a hyperbole to all of it.

 

[Zybalto]

I'll give it a few more games to see if D improves. But YA MAN.

Gardiner is more of a winger than a D man. We need a guy that can hold the blue line, not another offensive weapon we have alot of those already.
Hainsey needs sheltering, and Zaits needs to be better.

Gardiner should be packaged with someone at the Deadline for D upgrade.

Nylander is looking more and more expendable as the roster is played out - its becoming either we have the scariest offense in the league and win by scoring 6-8 goals and just let in less - or we actually get a blue line upgrade.

Hope OZ and Borg step up by midseason. Fingers crossed

Everyone keeps talking about Zaitsev bouncing back but he stands no chance if you dont acknowledge solid games from him.

Tonights stat line:

5v5:

Led all players on either team with 16:31 5v5 TOI and yet was the Leafs defender that allowed the fewest scoring chances.
56% corsi rating on a night the leafs lost the possession battle 54-46.
The only Leafs defender with a positive shot differential.
Led all defenders in hits.
+2 on the night (for those that like that sort of thing)

I have a feeling when it comes to Zaitsev that many are trying too hard to find something wrong which will of course lead to them finding it.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Everyone keeps talking about Zaitsev bouncing back but he stands no chance if you dont acknowledge solid games from him.

Tonights stat line:

5v5:

Led all players on either team with 16:31 5v5 TOI and yet was the Leafs defender that allowed the fewest scoring chances.
56% corsi rating on a night the leafs lost the possession battle 54-46.
The only Leafs defender with a positive shot differential.
Led all defenders in hits.
+2 on the night (for those that like that sort of thing)

I have a feeling when it comes to Zaitsev that many are trying too hard to find something wrong which will of course lead to them finding it.

Youre probably right. Which is why I said he needs to be better - but it most likely stems from the rest of the guys minus Rielly scaring the crap outta me tonight
Gardiner needs an ayahuasca retreat to fix his inner demons

Zaits bouncing back this season would be huge!

 

[LeafShark]

Im really at a loss as to what you are arguing here.

I agree that it doesnt take an accounting certificate in rocket surgery to arrange you're assets in the most positive and effectual manner.

Where I will absolutely disagree is when that type of statement is made taking into account a certain level of quality which we do not currently possess. Hence why I said it doesnt matter how you slice this. We have some really high end offensive talent on our blueline with Reilly and Gardiner. But both have serious flaws in other parts of their games, one being much worse than the other. Hainsey is close to done and Zaitzev has not proven anything to warrant his position either. We have some young guys that are definitely on their way but currently are not close to the minutes or consistency we need.

The key here is consistency btw. When you cant consistently count on your defenders to clear the net, clear the puck, make a proper first pass, control the puck on the boards, pinch at the right time and not let pucks get past them then you have a problem. It's the reason why we constantly have 1 bad period, 2 good periods. It's a reason why we constantly are in the bottom third of the league in not only shots against, but scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against.

We definitely don't have the worst defense in the league overall. It's offensive capability is very high. But its bottom 10 for sure the other way, in some cases bottom 5.

Leafs had the #12 defense last year and the #12 goaltender. Yes they gave up a lot of shots, but they kept opportunities to the outside. And they're only going to get better this year.

Meanwhile on offense, they are going from a top 3 slightly top heavy PP based offense to a BONKERS best in the league 4-line depth, best in a decade, 5-on-5 powerhouse (not necessairly in posession, but getting and scoring on quality opportunities).

You can pen an opponent in their own end for minutes at a time, but if you can't get a quality opportunity out of it and just a few outside shots, it doesn't mean much. We don't count shots, we count goals.

 

[Stephen]

Until the blueline is battle tested in the playoffs you'll always have some reservations an opponent can find its weaknesses and exploit. The maturity of some of our young players will definitely bring a rising tide to the blueline as a whole, but the depth chart would look more satisfying if they can take some organizational depth and make a Ryan McDonagh type trade.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Hainsey and Rosen

 

[moon111]

I think Gretzky first won the Cup as a 22 year old. Exactly how many teams won the Cup with their star players like Marner and Matthews at their age?
The Oilers didn't even win the Cup with a 90 goal scorer... seems it took them some time to start putting pieces together. Why isn't Toronto allowed this
same luxury? I can see pointing out problems, but yelling about them doesn't make you smart. Figuring out how in reality on how you can fix them is.
Reality solutions? Trade Nylander for defenseman. Trade someone else for a defenseman. Sign a 37 year old UFA defenseman who's lost two steps.
Bring up a rookie who's not ready? Expect more from existing players. I think the Leafs have done exactly what they should be doing.
Use Jake Gartiner just like Bozak and JVR.

 

[NightTrain1]

Leafs had the #12 defense last year and the #12 goaltender. Yes they gave up a lot of shots, but they kept opportunities to the outside. And they're only going to get better this year.

Meanwhile on offense, they are going from a top 3 slightly top heavy PP based offense to a BONKERS best in the league 4-line depth, best in a decade, 5-on-5 powerhouse (not necessairly in posession, but getting and scoring on quality opportunities).

You can pen an opponent in their own end for minutes at a time, but if you can't get a quality opportunity out of it and just a few outside shots, it doesn't mean much. We don't count shots, we count goals.

The Leafs had the #12 defense last year in what?

At even strength last year:
They were the 3rd worst in the league for overall scoring chances against.
They were 8th worst in the league for scoring chances allowed.
They were 5th worst in the league for allowing medium danger scoring chances (not shots, scoring chances)
They were 11th worst in the league for high danger scoring chances allowed (not shots, scoring chances)


We absolutely DO count shots as well as goals. Because if you're goalie isnt capable of standing on his head consistently you get destroyed. It's also hugely negative on your goaltending night in and night out.

It didnt end in the playoffs either and we all saw with our own eyes what transpired. We had nearly as many high and medium danger scoring chances against us as some teams that played in the second round.

 

[Zybalto]

Youre probably right. Which is why I said he needs to be better - but it most likely stems from the rest of the guys minus Rielly scaring the crap outta me tonight
Gardiner needs an ayahuasca retreat to fix his inner demons

Zaits bouncing back this season would be huge!

Heres some data that may give you some hope:

After a solid October last year, Zaitsev went into a tailspin with personal and health issues:

Nov. 1st - Feb.20 5v5:

CF%: 45.5
SCF%: 47.4
HDCF%: 49.4

Awful in every aspect covered up by a highish PDO. Took a while for many to realize how much of a trainwreck he had become.

Feb.20 - End of season 5v5:

CF%: 52.3
SCF%: 57.0
HDCF%: 53.9

Massive turnaround in his analytics as he got over his issues but a now lowish PDO, penalty kill issues and a stubborn narrative had many still ragging on him.

Playoffs 5v5:

CF%: 52.2
SCF%: 57.0
HDCF%: 62.2

One of the best 2nd pairing defenders in the first round analytically backed up by a solid QoC. He was also super effective on the PK which had been one of his issues down the stretch. Super low PDO masked his effectiveness to a large extent along with a weird obsession by some in the media to try and single him out for odd things like Anderson putting a puck in off his skate.

Add to this the fact he was over a PPG and one of the best defenders at the worlds and there is certainly room for optimism.

Hes also had a rock solid pre-season so far.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

hainsey is the biggest concern he can play but certainly not in a top pairing role...
gonna be a long season with this d corps.

 

[LeafShark]

The Leafs had the #12 defense last year in what?

At even strength last year:
They were the 3rd worst in the league for overall scoring chances against.
They were 8th worst in the league for scoring chances allowed.
They were 5th worst in the league for allowing medium danger scoring chances (not shots, scoring chances)
They were 11th worst in the league for high danger scoring chances allowed (not shots, scoring chances)


We absolutely DO count shots as well as goals. Because if you're goalie isnt capable of standing on his head consistently you get destroyed. It's also hugely negative on your goaltending night in and night out.

It didnt end in the playoffs either and we all saw with our own eyes what transpired. We had nearly as many high and medium danger scoring chances against us as some teams that played in the second round.

We did see what happened against Boston. Anderson posted a sub .900 save percentage, Kadri got suspended for 3 games, the refs called an inordinate amount of penalties in Boston against the Leafs in their first two games, Mathews obtained rediculously bad luck despite obtaining chances and they still took it to 7 games in a series that had no business going to 7 games. Also the Leafs weren't the favorites, so it was to be expected. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

[Zybalto]

The Leafs had the #12 defense last year in what?

At even strength last year:
They were the 3rd worst in the league for overall scoring chances against.
They were 8th worst in the league for scoring chances allowed.
They were 5th worst in the league for allowing medium danger scoring chances (not shots, scoring chances)
They were 11th worst in the league for high danger scoring chances allowed (not shots, scoring chances)


We absolutely DO count shots as well as goals. Because if you're goalie isnt capable of standing on his head consistently you get destroyed. It's also hugely negative on your goaltending night in and night out.

It didnt end in the playoffs either and we all saw with our own eyes what transpired. We had nearly as many high and medium danger scoring chances against us as some teams that played in the second round.

Goalkeeping is key in the playoffs and Anderson crapped the bed hard. Go check keeper GSAA stats and see where he ranked in the playoffs. (Corsica has him last out of all 29 keepers who played in the playoffs and having him in the top 10 during the regular season).

Here are the cup champs during the regular season:

Washington:
At even strength last year:
They were the 16th worst in the league for overall scoring chances against. (also called shots?)
They were 5th worst in the league for scoring chances allowed.
They were 11th worst in the league for allowing medium danger scoring chances (not shots, scoring chances)
They were 3rd worst in the league for high danger scoring chances allowed (not shots, scoring chances)

Doesnt look that much better TBH and is probably worse.

They also gave up more high danger chances/60 than the leafs did in the playoffs.

Holtby stepped up and won them the cup when they looked finished in the first round. How he wasnt the MVP boggles the mind.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Defence appears to be solved for now. Limit Gardiner and Hainsey to 20 min and play Oz.

Rielly Zaitsev (22min)
Gardiner Hainsey (20 min)
Dermott Oz (18 min)
Rosen Holl

Send down:
Sandin Liljegren
Borgman Subban
Marincin Loverde
Nielsen

Trade:
Carrick

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Yes they are that bad....yes they are.

 

[81Leafs50]

I'm seeing on Twitter WSH, TBL, PIT and other teams finalizing their dcores to start the season. Are the leafs really that far off what these other teams are putting out there?

Leafs:
Reilly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Rosen-Ozhiganov
Dermott (injured)
Carrick

 

[Atrusai]

A rebuilding year.... lol. This team is the favorite to win the cup. Please give your head a shake. The window to win is now, while our studs are on cheap deals!!!

Only in Vegas. I don't think many rational Leaf fans think we're favourites. I'm in the mindset that we're still rebuilding (our D at least) and am keeping my expectations low accordingly.

 

[DanM]

Only in Vegas. I don't think many rational Leaf fans think we're favourites. I'm in the mindset that we're still rebuilding (our D at least) and am keeping my expectations low accordingly.

100%

I am still waiting for Sandin and Lily to join this group on the backend. Plus never has it been more important to draft and develop well, we can't screw this up with the amount of salary we will have invested in our forwards.

 

[Zybalto]

Only in Vegas. I don't think many rational Leaf fans think we're favourites. I'm in the mindset that we're still rebuilding (our D at least) and am keeping my expectations low accordingly.

Washington was able to do it last year with a comparable team.

Make the playoffs and get good goaltending and you get a shot at the cup.

Think I just heard on the radio earlier that the last time the best team in the eastern conference won the cup was in 2004. The parity in the NHL is unrivaled compared to other major sports and has only gotten stronger since then.

Why didn't we beat Boston last year?

It wasn't defense that was the big issue.....and of you want to bring up defense, the most disappointing players are not names you were hearing much about either.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Only in Vegas. I don't think many rational Leaf fans think we're favourites. I'm in the mindset that we're still rebuilding (our D at least) and am keeping my expectations low accordingly.

I don't know if we're the favourites or not but if we're not, the gap between us and whoever the favourite is is so small that it's not even worth mentioning. The way I see it, there are 8-9 really good teams as of today (depending on whether or not you think Vegas is for real or not) and any one of teams winning the cup wouldn't be a surprise.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Zaitsev will be a top pairing dman this year. Book it.

He can play like an All-Star all regular season but if he plays the way he did last post-season then good riddance.

Washington was able to do it last year with a comparable team.

Make the playoffs and get good goaltending and you get a shot at the cup.

Think I just heard on the radio earlier that the last time the best team in the eastern conference won the cup was in 2004. The parity in the NHL is unrivaled compared to other major sports and has only gotten stronger since then.

Why didn't we beat Boston last year?

It wasn't defense that was the big issue.....and of you want to bring up defense, the most disappointing players are not names you were hearing much about either.

Washington and the Maple Leafs are not comparable for one reason, and one reason only--that is, the Maple Leafs do not have a Tom Wilson. Believe it or not, that guy was the x-factor and added a dimension to the Capitals that MOST teams don't have.

 

[Atrusai]

100%

I am still waiting for Sandin and Lily to join this group on the backend. Plus never has it been more important to draft and develop well, we can't screw this up with the amount of salary we will have invested in our forwards.

My thoughts exactly. And the maturation of Dermott and any of Oz, Rosen, Borgman etc.

Washington was able to do it last year with a comparable team.

Make the playoffs and get good goaltending and you get a shot at the cup.

Same could be said for every team that makes the playoffs. Of course the Leafs have a shot, just not as good of as a shot as they should have in the next few years.

 

[Atrusai]

I don't know if we're the favourites or not but if we're not, the gap between us and whoever the favourite is is so small that it's not even worth mentioning. The way I see it, there are 8-9 really good teams as of today (depending on whether or not you think Vegas is for real or not) and any one of teams winning the cup wouldn't be a surprise.

I don't think the gap is that small, not until our overall D improves a notch or two. We can't depend on Freddy to bail us out over a 7 game series when we're giving up 40+ shots almost half the time.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think the gap is that small, not until our overall D improves a notch or two. We can't depend on Freddy to bail us out over a 7 game series when we're giving up 40+ shots almost half the time.

The gap between us and what other team?

 

[Atrusai]

The gap between us and what other team?

Teams that can play shutdown hockey.

 

[thusk]

The Leafs had the #12 defense last year in what?

At even strength last year:
They were the 3rd worst in the league for overall scoring chances against.
They were 8th worst in the league for scoring chances allowed.
They were 5th worst in the league for allowing medium danger scoring chances (not shots, scoring chances)
They were 11th worst in the league for high danger scoring chances allowed (not shots, scoring chances)


We absolutely DO count shots as well as goals. Because if you're goalie isnt capable of standing on his head consistently you get destroyed. It's also hugely negative on your goaltending night in and night out.

It didnt end in the playoffs either and we all saw with our own eyes what transpired. We had nearly as many high and medium danger scoring chances against us as some teams that played in the second round.

Yes leafs allowed a lot of scoring chance, but the question you have to ask if it's the way leafs played who created that... LEafs foward playing high and D try a lot of streche pass to use their speed... When it's working, you will create good scoring chance but when that don't work... The result is you will be in trouble defensivly and you will allow shot and scoring chance.

Compare this to bruins game style, fowards playing low with quick short pass in transition. So when they miss a play, they get help really quickly to help that D group. It is because it's a better D group or just beacause they get more help than leafs D?